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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

AlterEgo

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I don't discount other's experiences whatever they are.

But I feel like some on this thread attack those who criticize the benefits system as overgenerous in areas, poorly targeted and oversized as millionaire off-shore right-wing zealots.
Perhaps they also share your experiences, but just don't think the solutions are the same. Who in this thread has suggested you are a "millionaire offshore right wing zealot"?

In reality, many ordinary people have concerns
What is an ordinary person? Are you an ordinary person? Am I?

and can both see the unfairness of the system and the reality that there is not a never-ending pot. PIP is also incredibly easy to game with coaching and the move away from in-person assessments, but that's another story.
PIP is not easy to game; it is a stressful process and part of that is precisely because there is no in-person assessment, which means people have to advocate for themselves in writing. Many people struggle with this, particularly if they have disabilities. The forms are very long, and particularly unclear in places, and a lot of people are going to need help to fill it in from a friend or an advocate.

I rarely see or hear people who are disabled railing against PIP as being "too generous" or that "some people's disabilities shouldn't be considered". It is usually able-bodied people in my experience who see disability benefits as some sort of free handout to often undeserving people.
 
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RailUK Forums

The Ham

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So almost a million cars on the road for free.

The Motability scheme, with its incredible tax benefits and lack of VAT on monthly payments, is symbolic to many people of the system and ordinary take payers being taking advantage of.

At the end of the day, my personal belief is people who get PIP can do with it what they wish. However, the huge tax advantages for cars with no adjustments whatsoever is clearly wrong. I find it hard to understand how some don't see how it gets other's backs up when they are struggling to put food on the table.

I understand how it can annoy people when they are struggling to put food on the table, however even in comparison to the number of people who have a blue badge (nearly 3 million in England) it only covers 1 in 3.

I'm sure that there's people who are gaming the system, however, given that this accounts for about 2.5% of all cars, you'd need 1 in 5 to be doing so to even to reduce that to 2% of the cars.

It's not for free, they have to pay, yes it's often from a benefits payment, however that then means that they have less "cash" and so if someone has a car, they still have to figure out if don't do is worth it if they are struggling with other costs.

The bottom line is that often it's cheaper to let people game the system than it is to catch them.

As I've said previously, it's why it might be better to have a universal income payment, which is funded from a land value tax (which would also likely mean that infrastructure investment was easier to justify as when land increases in cost due to it having more infrastructure provision the amount of tax increases).

The argument that the rich will leave is irrelevant, as unless everyone sells up at a very much reduced rate, the new owners would still pay the tax at the same value.

If it did result in reducing land value, then the cost of rents and housing would reduce, helping those on low incomes in being able to provide food for their families.

Although because the income tax would be a bit higher (ideally so the amount of tax paid covered the cost of the universal income payments at around (say) £40,000, but with a simplified tax system (so no cliff edge tax rates) and benefits payments (no you get this if x, but if y you pay more taxes) the cost of managing everything is less.

You also remove a lot of people from having benefits, which means that they are less likely to sit working 15 hours a week as their tax rate would be (say) 25% and not 55% and so don't a bit of overtime becomes much more valuable and so people are more likely to earn more and so pay more taxes.

For example, if it's only worth £6 to do an extra hour of work (and your benefits may be out of kilterfor a few weeks) that's far less attractive than your work being worth £9 for that hour and nothing else changes.

As such you're much more likely to work, say, 18 hours a week and pay £9 in extra taxes rather than only work 15 hours and not pay anything extra.

As to people reducing the tax bill by having a car, that's quite common, for example:
- a having a business lease for an EV
- owning an EV and not paying fuel duty

The latter covers 6.5% of the UK car fleet and growing rapidly - they are likely costing the government more than those gaming the benefits system, and if they aren't, they soon will be (for 2025 it would have needed around 6% of the PIP payments to be over payments).
 

ainsworth74

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It should be means tested

Perhaps, though that does introduce more complication of course. Plus those who contribute more in tax might via earning more might, not unreasonably, question even more what's the point of their contributions if they cannot even get disability support. Many of them are already locked out of a previous universal entitlement in the form of Child Benefit. But means testing is a valid consideration. I'd just question where you set the limit.

and have a much, much stricter qualifying criteria - which the Government was obviously planning to do until the left wing Labour backbenchers got involved.
The qualifying criteria are, already, strict. The Daily Living criteria are here and the Mobility criteria can be found here. There's various other factors to consider beyond just the plane text reading of the criteria (for instance you have to not be able to do the activity for 50.1% of the time, it has to have affected you for three months and will last for at least another nine, you need to be able to do things safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a reasonable time period) but we don't need to get too dogged down in that detail. From those activities you need to score eight points to qualify for standard daily living/mobility and twelve points for enhanced daily living/mobility. No double counting, you can only score once for each activity and you can't count points scored for daily living to help you qualify for mobility or vice versa.

So lets take a person that might have osteoarthritis in their hands, knees and shoulders and is in their 50s. Perhaps they've been a nurse or maybe they worked in construction or similar, something that's put wear and tear on their joints anyway. That likely means that their grip strength is going to have been impacted in their hands. They'll find it harder to hold onto knife to peel/chop up food, to grip a potato, or lift a pot/pan to or from the hob. Depending on how bad it is in their knees standing might be an issue. Liklihood is that they'll need to use some aids around the kitchen, perhaps electric tin openers, stick on chopping boards (where you can stab the item onto the board), perhaps chunky grip pans and/or lightweight pots and pans. Perhaps even a perching stool. That would score two points for needing to use an aid.

They might need to use chunky grip cutlery to be able to cut up cooked food on their plate for the same reason of having dodgy grip in their hands. That would be another two points.

Looking at washing themselves again with their shoulders they might find reaching above head height is difficult so would struggle to wash their hair, it might also be hard for them to stand in the shower for long enough so a shower stool might be required as well as getting in/out being risky due to their knees so grab rails might be appropriate. That would be another two points.

Manging the toilet it's likely that their knees are going to make getting up/down from the toilet tricky so likely that a raised toilet seat would be needed and possible some grab rails as well to help steady them. That would be another two points.

Finally depending on the severity of the arthritis in the hands it could be that manging buttons, zips and shoe laces will be difficult. They might find that they have to avoid certain clothes. It might also be hard to raise their arms above their head to put on t-shirts or jumpers. Bending might be an issue depending on how their back is. It might well be that they have to use slip on shoes, clothes with either no fastenings at all or with chunky handles, or it might be that they have to go very slowly whilst dressing to accommodate the pain and stiffness (especially first thing in the morning). Likely that they would need another two points.

That would give us ten points for daily living and an award of the standard rate. So this person who struggles to make food for themselves, to cut up food on their plate to wash themselves, to get on and off the toilet and dress themselves currently qualifies for £76.60 per week of extra money. To qualify for this money they've made a phone call to request a form, the form has arrived (around 50 pages) and they've answered detailed questions about some of the most intimate matters going that will be read by strangers, they've then taken part in an assessment with another stranger (a healthcare professional of some description often a nurse but could be a physiotherapist or even a paramedic on occasion) where they've been asked to talk to them about those same intimate matters in as much detail as possible (they will ask how you manage to go to the toilet, they'll want to know how you manage to clean yourself after you've defecated, how you manage to get/up and down, if you can get there on time and so on), after that the report produced and forwarded to the DWP to make a decision on your entitlement.

It is not an easy process. It certainly is possible to game it. But that isn't because the criteria are too loose but because the quality of assessment is, frankly, appalling. We have created a benefit with quite reasonable qualifying criteria then designed a system which is so awful people who are entitled feel as if they're been interrogated and disbelieved whilst the few charlatans (they do exist, but not as many as people like to imagine) that are happy to lie through their teeth can secure an award. You want to fix PIP? Fix the quality of assessment.

Oh, and the proposal that Labour had to tighten the criteria would have meant the above person wouldn't have qualified for PIP anymore. I'm not sure someone who struggles to make food for themselves, to cut up food on their plate to wash themselves, to get on and off the toilet and dress themselves is the kind of person that we should just be kicking off PIP.
 

SargeNpton

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As I've said previously, it's why it might be better to have a universal income payment, which is funded from a land value tax (which would also likely mean that infrastructure investment was easier to justify as when land increases in cost due to it having more infrastructure provision the amount of tax increases).
So, everybody get taxed in the land that their property sits on - just to give them a universal income payment? Seems like a lot of bureaucracy to give people back what you have just taken from them.
 

AlterEgo

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So, everybody get taxed in the land that their property sits on - just to give them a universal income payment? Seems like a lot of bureaucracy to give people back what you have just taken from them.
Land value taxes should - in theory - also lead to more efficient land use and lower land speculation.
 

The Ham

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So, everybody get taxed in the land that their property sits on - just to give them a universal income payment? Seems like a lot of bureaucracy to give people back what you have just taken from them.

Not really, most people only own a fairly small area of land.

For example all home owners hold something like 5% of the land mass of the UK.

The top 1% own more than 50% of all the land and the top 5% owns over 75% of all the land.

Likewise 95% of farmers own up to 250 acres each, and whilst they account for something like 80% of farms they actually only own around 25% of the land owned for farming.

The bottom line is that a lot of the tax would likely come from a limited number of people.
 

martin butler

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One thing i have noted is how some pundits, on the left are already condemning Burnham, over his perceived support of Israel as if somehow to them, a war the other side of the world is more important to them, than what's happening at home,

Burnhams number one issue should be to deal with the problems effecting the people of this country, first, such as the high cost of energy, water, and transport, foreign policy should be best left to the minister whose portfolio it is,

For the record, I do not support what the Israeli state are doing, If you want a lasting peace, you don't set out to destabilise the region, but it's for the Israeli people themselves through the ballot box to remove those who are leading their country down a very dark path.
 

AlterEgo

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For the record, I do not support what the Israeli state are doing, If you want a lasting peace, you don't set out to destabilise the region, but it's for the Israeli people themselves through the ballot box to remove those who are leading their country down a very dark path.
Is that always the case for apartheid ethnostates perpetrating genocide, or is it just Israel?
 

martin butler

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Is that always the case for apartheid ethnostates perpetrating genocide, or is it just Israel?
I would say the same for all states that operate an apartheid regime, it takes many forms, tribal, ethnic, religious, but where a country commits genocide, war crimes, etc, then we should be holding them to account, and insisting that we do not support in any way, or form their actions,

the answer has to come from within its own peoples, even when they might be nations, we are friendly with, foreign policy should never take precedence over domestic policy,

Yes, we can state our disapproval through diplomatic means, but sometimes to me, it seems the labour left, would rather do the oppositions dirty work for them, out of pure ideology preferring protest to government.
 

JamieL

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One thing i have noted is how some pundits, on the left are already condemning Burnham, over his perceived support of Israel as if somehow to them, a war the other side of the world is more important to them, than what's happening at home,

Burnhams number one issue should be to deal with the problems effecting the people of this country, first, such as the high cost of energy, water, and transport, foreign policy should be best left to the minister whose portfolio it is,

For the record, I do not support what the Israeli state are doing, If you want a lasting peace, you don't set out to destabilise the region, but it's for the Israeli people themselves through the ballot box to remove those who are leading their country down a very dark path.
Israel is part of the problem of destabilisation of the Middle East which, in turn, is impacting the pockets of the UK population in our fuel and food costs. Iran is, of course, the most significant destabilising actor - but Israeli foreign policy is aggravating the situation. So ultimately, the issue should be near the top of Burnham's inbox.
 

martin butler

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Israel is part of the problem of destabilisation of the Middle East which, in turn, is impacting the pockets of the UK population in our fuel and food costs. Iran is, of course, the most significant destabilising actor - but Israeli foreign policy is aggravating the situation. So ultimately, the issue should be near the top of Burnham's inbox.
I'm going to have to disagree with your last sentence, it's a foreign policy issue, and as such should be dealt with by the foreign office, minister, rather than directly by the next inhabitant of Number 10 Downing Street, IMHO,

I would prefer to see the government taking steps to tackle those problems it can do something about, such as the cost of living, high energy costs, education, and not be distracted by things it has no control, or influence over, except where we add our voice to that of others in calling out what would be to any sane person, as totally unacceptable behaviour.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm going to have to disagree with your last sentence, it's a foreign policy issue, and as such should be dealt with by the foreign office, minister, rather than directly by the next inhabitant of Number 10 Downing Street, IMHO,
Convenient! As all the things you list as top issues also have their own dedicated minister.

I would prefer to see the government taking steps to tackle those problems it can do something about, such as the cost of living
Chancellor.
, high energy costs
Energy Secretary.
, education
Education Secretary.

Etc etc.
 

Broucek

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Any chance of this not turning into a big Israel debate? No one will change their mind and it's dull
 

AlterEgo

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Any chance of this not turning into a big Israel debate? No one will change their mind and it's dull
It's a key issue for the Labour Party unfortunately and will contribute significantly to Burnham's ability to keep his MPs onside. Picking the former chair of Labour Friends of Israel as chief of staff and being on record saying his first overseas visit would be to Israel aren't going to play well for him. As with all political leaders he has a shelf life and with support for Israel probably at an all time low with the public, you can expect this to be a consistent theme during his time as leader even if it is boring.
 

AlterEgo

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Most people know that domestic issues really matter
Like the price of oil, gas, imports, all of which I therefore imagine is thankfully is totally unlinked to matters overseas. Foreign Office I suppose is just window dressing.

The nail in the coffin for Starmer and a key area on which he and Burnham differ is defence, so painting foreign policy as irrelevant doesn't fly very far.
 

Railwaycat

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It's a key issue for the Labour Party unfortunately and will contribute significantly to Burnham's ability to keep his MPs onside. Picking the former chair of Labour Friends of Israel as chief of staff and being on record saying his first overseas visit would be to Israel aren't going to play well for him. As with all political leaders he has a shelf life and with support for Israel probably at an all time low with the public, you can expect this to be a consistent theme during his time as leader even if it is boring.
If you're a true friend of Israel you won't support their policies, and you might just want to visit the country to make your views known.
 

oldman

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Like the price of oil, gas, imports, all of which I therefore imagine is thankfully is totally unlinked to matters overseas. Foreign Office I suppose is just window dressing.

The nail in the coffin for Starmer and a key area on which he and Burnham differ is defence, so painting foreign policy as irrelevant doesn't fly very far.
Moving the goalposts a bit - you were talking about Burnham's attitude to Israel. The price of oil matters to everyone, whether someone specifically uses the G-word to describe Israel's onslaught in Gaza does not.
 

ainsworth74

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The nail in the coffin for Starmer and a key area on which he and Burnham differ is defence, so painting foreign policy as irrelevant doesn't fly very far.
And even as the coffin is being nailed shut Starmer's government finds yet more ways of ensuring that the catastrophic mishandling of UK defence over the last 30 years continues unabated even at the dying moments his administration:

Money for up to eight Type 83 destroyers and five Type 32 frigates will no longer appear in the Dip, which the outgoing prime minister is expected to unveil as early as Tuesday as he seeks to shore up his legacy by shaping the future of Britain’s military.


Also keeps unbroken the chain of Labour governments that haven't ordered a frigate for the Royal Navy since mid-70s so there's another nice feather in the cap of Starmer's abject failure to even slow the rot of the UKs defence let alone fix it.

Potentially fatal for the brand new frigate factory in Rosyth as that has no work after the Type 31s complete and heaven alone knows what will happen to the similar facilities over on the Clyde one the Type 26s finish. Hell, we'll probably just slow role their construction even more than we already have (first Type 26 laid down in on 2017 and it might finally commission by the end of 2027) to keep the yard open and burn even more cash as a result. Just as we did with the aircraft carriers.

Might as well just give up at this point and scrap the UK's armed forces wholesale and save the money and just cross our fingers that it doesn't go wrong. It's clear that no government actually intends to provide for the defence of the realm so what's the point?
 

AlterEgo

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Moving the goalposts a bit - you were talking about Burnham's attitude to Israel. The price of oil matters to everyone, whether someone specifically uses the G-word to describe Israel's onslaught in Gaza does not.
The price of oil is being directly influenced by Israel's actions in the Gulf - they are the engine behind the current conflict. So having a pro- or anti-Israel prime minister will be meaningful to quite a few people, in as much as what they can expect in Britain pushing back. Israel is not some irrelevant country, it and the USA are directly affecting how much money people have to spend. Fuel going up 30p a litre is not inconsequential and neither is the above-target inflation the UK is experiencing.

One of the few areas Starmer performed well was around our very limited actions with relation to the Iran/Israel/US slapping fight in the Gulf. Foreign policy is extremely important and it's very naive to suggest that one of the great offices of state in Foreign Secretary is irrelevant - this has the same "too complex for simple minds" whiff as "people have had enough of experts" did in the run up to Brexit. The whole point is to set foreign policy that aligns with our interests. Britain's foreign policy governs its entire character and fortune.

I don't wish to come across as anti-Burnham. It's tedious for people to do that reflexively, because all political careers end in failure and people love to say "I told you so". I'd disagree with Burnham on Israel but I do think he is fundamentally decent and straightforward. I'm with him on defence, and in his general strategy of maybe moving Labour leftwards and to hopefully cease trying to tackle Reform on away territory in the culture wars. I'm a little worried he lacks the skills to manage the PLP and he is a mascot/people pleaser type who loves to be loved. But we will see.
 

Railwaycat

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I'd disagree with Burnham on Israel but I do think he is fundamentally decent and straightforward. I'm with him on defence, and in his general strategy of maybe moving Labour leftwards and to hopefully cease trying to tackle Reform on away territory in the culture wars. I'm a little worried he lacks the skills to manage the PLP and he is a mascot/people pleaser type who loves to be loved. But we will see.

But you don't know how he's going to handle Israel, you've got to wait and see, I'd be surprised if he's any different to Starmer. As for defence I agree - we need an increase in capabilities in the short term, not in 5 years time, and new tech should be able to provide this even if it's only a stopgap.
 

Harpo

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Closer to home, there’s talk of a ‘No 10 north’ in Manchester(?) under Burnham. That has to be great news for rail users assuming that some ministers & MPs will have to use XC, Northern, TPE, EMR, TfW.
Andy Burnham will give a major policy speech later, his first since launching a bid to become prime minister, in which he will announce plans for a "No 10 North".
 

JamesT

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And even as the coffin is being nailed shut Starmer's government finds yet more ways of ensuring that the catastrophic mishandling of UK defence over the last 30 years continues unabated even at the dying moments his administration:




Also keeps unbroken the chain of Labour governments that haven't ordered a frigate for the Royal Navy since mid-70s so there's another nice feather in the cap of Starmer's abject failure to even slow the rot of the UKs defence let alone fix it.

Potentially fatal for the brand new frigate factory in Rosyth as that has no work after the Type 31s complete and heaven alone knows what will happen to the similar facilities over on the Clyde one the Type 26s finish. Hell, we'll probably just slow role their construction even more than we already have (first Type 26 laid down in on 2017 and it might finally commission by the end of 2027) to keep the yard open and burn even more cash as a result. Just as we did with the aircraft carriers.

Might as well just give up at this point and scrap the UK's armed forces wholesale and save the money and just cross our fingers that it doesn't go wrong. It's clear that no government actually intends to provide for the defence of the realm so what's the point?
I noted part of the reasoning for not going ahead with Type 83 and instead going with these drone carriers is they don't want to rely on a "small number of large expensive ships". So we're getting more of these, right? Nope, plan was for 8 Type 83s, but they've only said 6 of this new type.
 

ainsworth74

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I noted part of the reasoning for not going ahead with Type 83 and instead going with these drone carriers is they don't want to rely on a "small number of large expensive ships". So we're getting more of these, right? Nope, plan was for 8 Type 83s, but they've only said 6 of this new type.
In some respects I can live without the Type 83s, the Type 45s are so low mileage due to their engine trouble, that keeping them in service through to the 2040s won't be too tricky. It's knocking the Type 32s on the head that is flabbergasting (along with an all but confirmed cut to the Type 26 build, there's no-way that the ship being diverted for Norway is going to have a replacement ordered). Potentially kills off a brand new frigate factory in Rosyth, does more damage to our defence industrial base, and leaves us utterly beholden to this drone based future when none of these drone ships are even vaguely mature designs (ask the US Navy how it goes if you try and build something before the design is mature).

If the decision had been cancel Type 83, proceed with Type 32 and move towards a larger drone fleet for the mid-2030s then that's fine. Even sensible considering the way that the world is changing. But this is just yet more vandalism. It's got nowt to do with building the navy that we need and everything to do with saving money in the short term (and costing far more in the future when this immature designs blow up in our faces and/or it's a disastrous failure and turns out all drones all the time wasn't the right call). Plus they say they want six of the new drone carrier thingys. If history is a guide we'll end up with three any way once HM Treasury is finished with their masterplan to ensure that the UK is unarmed.
 

najaB

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What actual influence will Burnham possibly have over the actions of Israel and the US in the Middle East?
Very little, directly. However to paraphrase the well-known saying: "All that is required for evil to triumph is for the good to say nothing."
 

AlterEgo

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What actual influence will Burnham possibly have over the actions of Israel and the US in the Middle East?
Did you miss the bit where we didn't let the Americans use our bases to start their war of aggression, for example? Britain has plenty of influence in the Middle East, the idea that Britain is some sort of diplomatic backwater simply isn't true.
 

brad465

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I would not be surprised if Burnham takes a very different attitude to Israel now than in 2015 when he made the controversial remarks (though probably not to the extend of the pro-Gaza independent MPs). He has form for being a political chameleon and he definitely would not visit there at the moment, it would be hammered in all the press and protests outside Westminster would be very vocal and disruptive. If questioned on the issue he could very easily say circumstances have changed significantly, as the perpetual bombing of Gaza and now Lebanon have all happened after his earlier remarks.
 

Yew

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As for defence I agree - we need an increase in capabilities in the short term, not in 5 years time, and new tech should be able to provide this even if it's only a stopgap.
What do you meaningfully think we can get into service within 5 years? Similarly, which threats do you think will be particuarly severe within the next 5 years?
 

najaB

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What do you meaningfully think we can get into service within 5 years?
I know the question isn't directed at me, but as an island nation it would be good if all our SSN's were in good working order as a start. I believe that currently only one or two are available.
 

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