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Burnham proposes revival of HS2 Birmingham-Manchester funded by land value capture

eldomtom2

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In an interview with the i newspaper, Andy Burnham has been quoted as stating he wants to uncancel HS2 Phase 2.
Quoting the relevant section (the rest of the article is a general interview of Burnham):
Pressed on what he would actually do with the keys to No 10, Burnham sets out a prospectus that is unmistakably in the Manchester mould.

He wants to bring back the northern leg of HS2. The scrapping of the Birmingham to Manchester route still rankles, and he is blunt that it should be revived.

“I am absolutely clear, I’ve seen it myself in terms of expansion of our travel system,” he says. “If you put that infrastructure in, it lays the foundations for higher growth… The lack of high-quality rail infrastructure in the north of England holds back its growth potential.”

What lifts this above a pipe dream, given the eye-watering sums involved – the Manchester leg was due to cost £36bn at the time it was cancelled – is how he says it should be paid for. It’s an idea he claims would spare the Treasury much of the bill and he has done it before, at scale.

“There’s a cleverer way of funding this,” he says. “If you go back, I put the funding package together for Crossrail and it was actually a package that did have contributions from business and residents.”

The trick missed last time, he argues, was capturing the soaring value of land around new stations, as London later did on the Northern line extension to Battersea. “You don’t take all the windfall off the landholder, but you share the proceeds of that windfall, and the increase in land values created by the infrastructure is captured to pay back the cost of the infrastructure. So why shouldn’t we fund infrastructure in this country in that way?”

It is, he insists, the future. “A much more devolved approach to running this country. You cannot get growth in a top-down, silo-driven model of government,” he says.
 
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Dr Hoo

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The London examples related to city areas that could be redeveloped and densified around multiple stations.

Good luck with capturing enough value from upgrading Crewe and Warrington with no other stations in between.
 

HSTEd

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You are not going to raise anything clos to £36bn from Land value capture on this line.

It has barely any stations so barely any land affected by value increases!
 

Sorcerer

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I support the revival of HS2 Phase 2 along with land value taxation. But Andy Burnham will promise anything to get elected Labour leader, and then he will pull an "oh dear, there's actually no money for this" so that it feels like he genuinely cannot deliver on a promise despite his best efforts rather than a typical underhanded effort to get a leadership position. Keir Starmer promised a fair bit until he was Labour leader, then things suddenly change once you actually need to walk the walk.
 

AlexSJW

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Burnham is assuming HS2 will raise land values enough to pay for it. All economists say it will not create economic growth.

Liverpool needs its metro finished after 46 years. Manchester needs it trams extending. Southampton/Portsmouth, Leeds and Bristol need tram networks. What we do not need is another fast line to London.

If he means a Stafford bypass extending from phase 1, that takes Manchester trains the short route via Stone on upgraded track and the Liverpool and Scots trains onto the WCML north of Norton Bridge, then that makes sense. The full HS2 phases 2A and 2B west? Then he needs therapy.

The word HS2 is toxic, a vote loser. What is he thinking of.
 

FMerrymon

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The most expensive part of phase 2 to Manchester has already been confirmed as going ahead. Connecting phase 1 and high legh, or wherever it is, is a lot less than the figure being suggested in the article.
 

Palmerston

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What's the minimum you need? Would it be Handsacre to Crewe, extend Crewe for 400m trains, new 400m platforms at Piccadilly? I suspect Burnham would be able to spin that fairly well and spend less than £36bn.
 

HSTEd

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What's the minimum you need? Would it be Handsacre to Crewe, extend Crewe for 400m trains, new 400m platforms at Piccadilly? I suspect Burnham would be able to spin that fairly well and spend less than £36bn.
I think the minimum product beyond the (soon to be) status quo is probably Handsacre to vicinity Hixon, which allows Manchester-bound trains to bypass Colwich.

After that I'd say 400m platforms at Manchester.
 
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CdBrux

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250m as a train length is also being discussed, how would that work in todays Piccadilly, Lime Street?
 

FMerrymon

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I notice Andy lives in Golborne, which is a good reminder phase2b West wasn't just about Manchester. The first stop after the Golborne link was Wigan, very near to makerfield. The 13miles of the golborne link are still safeguarded.
 

Manutd1999

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What's the minimum you need? Would it be Handsacre to Crewe, extend Crewe for 400m trains, new 400m platforms at Piccadilly? I suspect Burnham would be able to spin that fairly well and spend less than £36bn.
This has been discussed quite a lot before and there's definitely a shortened version of Phase 2 available which delivers most of the benefit.

Extending to Hixon gets you 2ph off the WCML and the ability to run Manchester-Birmingham via HS2.

Adding an extra section to Baldwins Gate resolves the constraints at Colwich and Shugborough tunnel, delivering pretty much all the capacity promised by Phase 2A.
 

AlexSJW

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This has been discussed quite a lot before and there's definitely a shortened version of Phase 2 available which delivers most of the benefit.

Extending to Hixon gets you 2ph off the WCML and the ability to run Manchester-Birmingham via HS2.

Adding an extra section to Baldwins Gate resolves the constraints at Colwich and Shugborough tunnel, delivering pretty much all the capacity promised by Phase 2A.
Branching off the Hixon to Stone line to the WCML takes Liverpool, Lancs and Scots trains away from Colwich and the tunnel.
 

3RDGEN

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No confirmation in that announcement at all, just another Billion to be wasted over the current spending review which will deliver nothing like NPR has done for the last decade or more.
 

mmh

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It's just a local politician acting like a local politician and trying to get votes for his local election.

It shows just how out of touch he must be, to think that "blah Manchester blah the North blah" would override the overwhelming negativity that the public have to HS2. Even if you claim it'll benefit them. Any sane politician would steer well clear of ever referencing HS2.
 

FMerrymon

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No confirmation in that announcement at all, just another Billion to be wasted over the current spending review which will deliver nothing like NPR has done for the last decade or more.

The hybrid bill had been retained and was reintroduced. Currently at comitteee stage, so its way past an announcement.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's just a local politician acting like a local politician and trying to get votes for his local election.

It shows just how out of touch he must be, to think that "blah Manchester blah the North blah" would override the overwhelming negativity that the public have to HS2. Even if you claim it'll benefit them. Any sane politician would steer well clear of ever referencing HS2.

He's not exactly been quiet about his calls for hs2 to Manchester and he has a chance to take advantage of work being done under npr (which isn't negatively associated) and deliver 50-70miles of relatively uncomplicated route at a far cheaper rate than phase 1. A large amount of land is already bought and some work has been written down in the phase 1 budget.

It'd be odd if he were to now abandon his calls for hs2 to Manchester. As I said above, if he becomes a Wigan MP, I suspect he may push for Golborne or alternative to ensure better journeys for Wigan as well.
 
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AlexSJW

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No confirmation in that announcement at all, just another Billion to be wasted over the current spending review which will deliver nothing like NPR has done for the last decade or more.
People read what they want to see in the words.
 

HSTEd

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The hybrid bill had been retained and was reintroduced. Currently at comitteee stage, so its way past an announcement.

Doing this costs the government essentially nothing and thus cannot be taken as any form of commitment.

Keeping the bill alive avoids the negative press from axing it.
 

AlexSJW

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It's just a local politician acting like a local politician and trying to get votes for his local election.

It shows just how out of touch he must be, to think that "blah Manchester blah the North blah" would override the overwhelming negativity that the public have to HS2. Even if you claim it'll benefit them. Any sane politician would steer well clear of ever referencing HS2.
Correct. Why Burnham mentioned poison chalice HS2 days before an election is beyond me. Political naivety. Even if he did say the funding will come from land value capture. The word HS2 is toxic. If I wanted rail to be a vote winner in Wigan I would mention NPR, finishing off Liverpool's metro, incororating the Wigan train onto Merseyrail Metro, and getting Manchester's trams to terminate in Wigan. And with an older population in Makerfield, say I would look into a substantial pension increase - the UK compared to similar countries has a very low pension.

Does he want the job?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also I would say I will campaign for a new station in the Makerfield constituency on the Liverpool/St.Helens/Wigan line and get it onto Merseyrail metro, people can use it like any other metro taking it foe a station or so. Then can see that money will be spent on them.
 
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FMerrymon

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Doing this costs the government essentially nothing and thus cannot be taken as any form of commitment.

Keeping the bill alive avoids the negative press from axing it.

According to some on this thread, it gains negative press keeping it alive.

In any case, we are talking about a possible Burnham government. The bill is renamed NPR, it's at committee stage, there is work already done on it, government have already announced it. Are you suggesting he won't do anything on that if he becomes PM?

Meanwhile, if he wants to get HS2 to Manchester (and Scotland), it'd cost a fraction of the announced npr budget.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Also I would say I will campaign for a new station in the Makerfield constituency on the Liverpool/St.Helens/Wigan line and get it onto Merseyrail metro, people can use it like any other metro taking it foe a station or so. Then can see that money will be spent on them.
Bryn (which used to be "for Ashton in Makerfield") is a station on the Wigan-Liverpool line and is in the Makerfield constituency.
Though being in Greater Manchester does not benefit from Merseytravel's fare structure (but Garswood, on the other side of the M6 just over a mile a way, does)
 

AlexSJW

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Extending to Hixon gets you 2ph off the WCML and the ability to run Manchester-Birmingham via HS2.

Adding an extra section to Baldwins Gate resolves the constraints at Colwich and Shugborough tunnel, delivering pretty much all the capacity promised by Phase 2A.
This should be done ASAP. A Stafford bypass.

i. Liverpool, Lancs, Scots and Mcr trains can go via Colwich junction, Hixon, the to a junction just before Stone. Then Mcr trains go via Stone and Liverpool/Lancs/Scots train over to the WCML. Servce will be ssafer and faster and the Birmingham-Mcr, what Burnham is on about, link is done.

ii. When HS2 to Handsacre is completed in ten years time, extend HS2 about 11 miles to Hixon. Then HS2 runs to a junction just before Stone. Colwich junction on the WCML can be removed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Bryn (which used to be "for Ashton in Makerfield") is a station on the Wigan-Liverpool line and is in the Makerfield constituency.
Though being in Greater Manchester does not benefit from Merseytravel's fare structure (but Garswood, on the other side of the M6 just over a mile a way, does)
Yes, Bryn appears to do it, and all on Merseyrail METRO. Mcr trams on the Mcr-Wigan line. Would be easy changing at Wigan to get to stations just east of Wigan, Ince and Hindley. A walk up service, so from: Garswood, Bryn, Wigan, Ince and Hindley, all within Wigan's surrounds. A usable local rail service. I would promote that rather than HS2 into Mcr.
 
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Mikey C

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I quite agree that HS2 should continue on past its current "worst of both worlds" terminus, but don't see the relevance of Crossrail financing to this, as Crossrail had lots of stations and businesses along its route which directly benefited, whereas the whole point of high speed rail is to miss out settlements and businesses on the way.
 

eldomtom2

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I quite agree that HS2 should continue on past its current "worst of both worlds" terminus, but don't see the relevance of Crossrail financing to this, as Crossrail had lots of stations and businesses along its route which directly benefited, whereas the whole point of high speed rail is to miss out settlements and businesses on the way.
Well, if as its proponents say HS2 will allow for improved local service to existing stations...
 

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