Named Trains in the UK

[The exile]

What's the reason for the daily southbound service joining at Gloucester but the daily northbound service splitting at Birmingham? (yes yes, I'm sure I'm supposed to say the up or down or across service or something, but I'm still not railway enough to understand that jargon!)

North and southbound is probably the best terminology to use here. “Up” and “Down” get very confusing on long trains cutting across radial lines from London. The chances are that an XC train from Edinburgh to Cardiff will swap from being on the “up” line to the “down” line multiple times during its journey (and I don’t mean by running “wrong line”). It’ll certainly start on the “up” line (ECML towards London) and end on the “down” line (South Wales Main Line away from London).

 

[sharpener]

Anyone know the full history of the Lorelei? According to this https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/category/trains/train-services/named-trains/the-loreley/ it ran from Manchester Victoria to Harwich via Ely.

But ISTR 50 or 60 yrs ago it was from Liverpool (for the transatlantic liners) to Harwich via Cambridge.

@Magdalia might well know!

 

[The exile]

Anyone know the full history of the Lorelei? According to this https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/category/trains/train-services/named-trains/the-loreley/ it ran from Manchester Victoria to Harwich via Ely.

But ISTR 50 or 60 yrs ago it was from Liverpool (for the transatlantic liners) to Harwich via Cambridge.

@Magdalia might well know!

As the article suggests - under the guise of “Loreley” it had a very short history indeed. The North West (or was it North Country) Continental goes back a very long way. I remember the Railway Nagazine carrying an interesting article headlined “The train in table Z” many years ago - possibly about the time it gained the “The European” moniker.

 

[Pete_uk]

The Cheltenham Spa Express. 08:32 Paddington to Cheltenham Spa
15:03 Cheltenham Spa to Paddington

Which is the same as any other service on that route!

 

[Magdalia]

Anyone know the full history of the Lorelei? According to this https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/category/trains/train-services/named-trains/the-loreley/ it ran from Manchester Victoria to Harwich via Ely.

But ISTR 50 or 60 yrs ago it was from Liverpool (for the transatlantic liners) to Harwich via Cambridge.

@Magdalia might well know!

There is probably a whole book that could be written about the history of the North Country Continental, which spreads over more than 100 years. The Loreley is a short but complicated chapter near the end, when loco hauled trains were replaced by sprinters. The Loreley name was first used in 1988, with the train running to and from Blackpool North. Going towards Harwich it had a Birmingham New Street portion. In 1989 the northern end was changed to Liverpool Lime Street, and there was a Birmingham portion in both directions. In 1990 the northbound train ran to Liverpool without the Birmingham portion and the southbound train ran from Birmingham, without the Liverpool portion, but with a portion for Norwich. The name was dropped in 1991.

The North Country Continental ran through to/from Liverpool Central from after World War I until 1963 though, as far as I'm aware, not via Cambridge. The route was Ipswich-Ely-March-Lincoln Central-Sheffield Victoria and Manchester Central (where the train reversed).

 

[Condor7]

So it is a named train (by default if it’s named and there’s only one of them each way every day). No other XC trains serve three nations (unless we’re thinking “pre Alfred the Great” or the comparable moments for modern Scotland - in which case it’d be a lot more than three!)

You make a good point. It is confusing because Cross Country Trains are calling the whole service The Three Country Express but in reality only the 09:45 to Cardiff to Edinburgh and the 13:05 return are actually direct across the three country’s. I have contacted the company and asked their take on it but usually it takes a while for a reply.

 

[Taunton]

Anyone know the full history of the Lorelei?

The Lorelei initially was an express through Germany, from Hook of Holland to Basle, passing on the way the self-named prominent feature on the River Rhine, the Lorelei Rock, which has many legends about it. Around 1960 it was upstaged by the luxury Rheingold express, which ran on pretty much the same path, with the Lorelei now following behind, almost apologetically, with the ordinary coaches.

Quite why the name of such a second-string service was later taken for the North Country Continental for a short period is, as discussed, not apparent. Cecil J Allen, longstanding railway author, who holidayed every year in Switzerland, travelling by the Rheingold, wrote several disparaging quips over time about the Lorelei following haltingly along behind.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There is probably a whole book that could be written about the history of the North Country Continental, which spreads over more than 100 years. The Loreley is a short but complicated chapter near the end, when loco hauled trains were replaced by sprinters. The Loreley name was first used in 1988, with the train running to and from Blackpool North. Going towards Harwich it had a Birmingham portion. In 1989 the northern end was changed to Liverpool Lime Street, and there was a Birmingham New Street portion in both directions. In 1990 the northbound train ran to Liverpool without the Birmingham portion and the southbound train ran from Birmingham, without the Liverpool portion, but with a portion for Norwich. The name was dropped in 1991.

The train ran through to/from Liverpool Central from after World War I until 1963 though, as far as I'm aware, not via Cambridge. The route was Ipswich-Ely-March-Lincoln Central-Sheffield Victoria and Manchester Central (where the train reversed).

The joke amongst staff and enthusiasts at the time was that the loco-hauled hauled 'European' served the continent; the replacement two-car Sprinter 'Lorelei' was only suitable for a rock in the Rhine. The 'Hook Continental' from Liverpool St. to Harwich was renamed the 'Admiral de Ruyter' from about 1987 for a time - an interesting choice as he smashed up the English fleet on the Medway in 1667.

 

[aar0]

GWR named trains are announced and shown on the boards in England but not in Wales (as a regular on Capitals United)

 

[thenorthern]

Ironically I was at Lancaster a couple of weeks ago and the train staff at Lancaster have given the 22:09 departure to Barrow the name "The Titfield Thunderbolt". Before I boarded the train of the platform staff asked if I had heard of the film, mentioning that it's probably before my time given I am in my early 30s.

To his surprise, I have seen the film many times.

 

[Envoy]

GWR named trains are announced and shown on the boards in England but not in Wales (as a regular on Capitals United)

So, nobody in the Welsh capital knows they are on the Capitals United but they do know in London. Perhaps it would be better if Great British Railways took over the running of mainline stations in Wales?

 

[JKF]

They used to have the named train branding on those paper window slips back in the day - what is the proper name for them? They looked pretty good and were probably effective at making sure people were getting the right train. I had a reasonable collection at one time that my parents probably binned when they cleared out the attic for new insulation years back.

It’s the sort of thing that would be nice to have on modern trains perhaps as a digital version, with colour graphics for the branding. Although I guess door windows are more out of the line of sight once they’re opened on modern stock.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railway have gone completely over-the-top by giving names to all of their trains such as "The Woodland Wanderer", "The Quarryman" and "The Mountain Spirit" none of which have a unique selling-point which would justify a name. The whole reason for naming is meaningless when every train is named!

 

[sprinterguy]

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railway have gone completely over-the-top by giving names to all of their trains such as "The Woodland Wanderer", "The Quarryman" and "The Mountain Spirit" none of which have a unique selling-point which would justify a name. The whole reason for naming is meaningless when every train is named!

It identifies the origin and destination points and departure times for specific travel packages, each one of which is different. I'd say that's the precise reasons trains have traditionally been named, i.e. to identify a service at a particular time of day to a specific destination (A couple of the packages have morning or afternoon options, admittedly).

 

[Iskra]

Does anyone have any anecdotes or evidence to suggest that regular passengers are aware, or care that they are travelling on a named train?

*Just to clarify, I’m not against named trains. I like them as they are evocative, but do regular passengers?

 

[John Luxton]

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railway have gone completely over-the-top by giving names to all of their trains such as "The Woodland Wanderer", "The Quarryman" and "The Mountain Spirit" none of which have a unique selling-point which would justify a name. The whole reason for naming is meaningless when every train is named!

I must admit I wasn't in favour of the FWHR train namings and saw it as a legacy of Covid when they came about as a means of managing things. But as time has gone on I think my views have mellowed a bit and now the big railway seems to be going down the named train route perhaps FWHR were just ahead of the game as they have been in a few things over the years. Perhaps we will see brackets fitted to the front of IETs for headboard or perhaps illuminated screens on the front to show the name?

 

[The exile]

You make a good point. It is confusing because Cross Country Trains are calling the whole service The Three Country Express but in reality only the 09:45 to Cardiff to Edinburgh and the 13:05 return are actually direct across the three country’s. I have contacted the company and asked their take on it but usually it takes a while for a reply.

But which “whole service”? As a regular user of the group of trains that the Cardiff - Scotland is the oddity among (ie Scotland - SW), I have never heard that term being used.

 

[Condor7]

But which “whole service”? As a regular user of the group of trains that the Cardiff - Scotland is the oddity among (ie Scotland - SW), I have never heard that term being used.

What is the Three Nations Connect Service?​

Three Nations Connect is a brand new CrossCountry route that offers weekday train travel between Cardiff and Edinburgh, with services passing through Birmingham and Leeds. This service aims to transform how passengers travel across Wales, England, and Scotland, making it possible to explore these regions without multiple connections.

That is from Cross Counrty Trains website, the name appears to apply to all trains travelling between Cardiff & Edinburgh but in reality only one train a day there and back is direct. With all the others you have to physically get off the train at its destination, let’s say Leeds, and then catch at least one another train to get to Edinburgh

 

[Bodiam]

The North Country Continental ran through to/from Liverpool Central from after World War I until 1963 though, as far as I'm aware, not via Cambridge. The route was Ipswich-Ely-March-Lincoln Central-Sheffield Victoria and Manchester Central (where the train reversed).

I have a vague recollection that it terminated at Cambridge (vice Harwich PQ) on Sundays in the late 1960s.

 

[Requeststop]

I can say that down here in the far South West, I've certainly not heard any of the named trains being announced at Truro, St Erth or Penzance which to my mind is a shame as a named train would add a certain class to long distance travel.
One name I would really like to see brought back is the Cornish Scot. It was used on the Glasgow-Penzance service up until the first couple of years of the century.
Now the only service I can see the name being re-introduced on is the 11:15 Penzance-Edinburgh and the 07:03 Edinburgh - Penzance services, but as the latter is only 4 coaches from Derby to Penzance it's hardy a romantic advertisement for a named service methinks.

 

[Magdalia]

I have a vague recollection that it terminated at Cambridge (vice Harwich PQ) on Sundays in the late 1960s.

In the 1960s the North Country Continental did not run on Sundays as the Joint Line was closed.

The train that ran via Cambridge on Sundays was the overnight Edinburgh-Colchester, and, on Sunday evenings the northbound train to Glasgow started from Cambridge not Colchester. Both of these ran via Peterborough and the ECML, not the Joint Line.

 

[Bodiam]

In the 1960s the North Country Continental did not run on Sundays as the Joint Line was closed.

The train that ran via Cambridge on Sundays was the overnight Edinburgh-Colchester, and, on Sunday evenings the northbound train to Glasgow started from Cambridge not Colchester. Both of these ran via Peterborough and the ECML, not the Joint Line.

Thanks for clarifying. I remember seeing a train heading out of Cambridge on a Sunday evening for somewhere unusually far north! Hauled by a Brush Type 2 (Class 31).

 

[12C]

Ironically I was at Lancaster a couple of weeks ago and the train staff at Lancaster have given the 22:09 departure to Barrow the name "The Titfield Thunderbolt". Before I boarded the train of the platform staff asked if I had heard of the film, mentioning that it's probably before my time given I am in my early 30s.

To his surprise, I have seen the film many times.

The last train of the night to Barrow is unofficially known as “The Whip”, apparently this goes back to steam days but is still widely used amongst staff and locals!

 

[thenorthern]

The last train of the night to Barrow is unofficially known as “The Whip”, apparently this goes back to steam days but is still widely used amongst staff and locals!

The member of the platform staff said that.

 

[DelW]

I can say that down here in the far South West, I've certainly not heard any of the named trains being announced at Truro, St Erth or Penzance which to my mind is a shame as a named train would add a certain class to long distance travel.

Last year I was quite surprised that my GWR train from Taunton to Reading was announced, and shown on screens, as the Atlantic Coast Express. Mainly I was surprised that "GWR" was re-using such a Southern name, but also because at that point in its journey, the fact it had originated in Newquay wasn't really relevant.

 

[Tetragon213]

Last year I was quite surprised that my GWR train from Taunton to Reading was announced, and shown on screens, as the Atlantic Coast Express. Mainly I was surprised that "GWR" was re-using such a Southern name, but also because at that point in its journey, the fact it had originated in Newquay wasn't really relevant.

Iirc, much of the route of the ACE became Western territory after about 1967 when the borders were redrawn, so it would make sense the Western would "adopt" the name.

 

[DelW]

Iirc, much of the route of the ACE became Western territory after about 1967 when the borders were redrawn, so it would make sense the Western would "adopt" the name.

The whole saga of the transfer of the ex-LSWR lines west of Exeter (aka the Withered Arm) and the S&D, to the Western Region, was highly divisive and controversial at the time. Many railway staff whose employment went back to the Grouping or even pre-Grouping era were most unhappy at the change, and the acrimony lasted for many years after, hence my comment.

However, it's a long time ago now, and the modern GWR has little in common with its big four predecessor. The marketing execs who chose the name may not even have heard of the history or realised that the original ACE was a South Western dagger into the heart of the old Great Western .

 

[Requeststop]

In my long 72 years, I have never been aware of any preference for the LSWR or the GWR companies or groups. Here in the far South West, It has always been God's Wonderful Railway, The LSWR just operated to the east and north of Cornwall.
To us, the big wigs in London have been and still are and no doubt in the future, dismissive of we "yokels" down here. Maybe when GBR come to full existence there will be a big change of policy, and that the named trains of the UK will be fully re-introduced with some pride and that advertising of the services will be given some pride of place.

 

[DelW]

The original ACE reached the end of the Southern's tracks at Padstow, which is some way into Cornwall, though of course still east and north of quite a lot of it.

I have a distant childhood memory of a holiday in Cornwall in 1964, and being taken outside in St Kew Highway to see the down ACE pass by. That far west it was just a Bulleid Pacific and three coaches, having shed the rest of its train on its journey westwards.

The current GWR ACE has a rather simpler train makeup, but does get a little further west.

 

[Tetragon213]

The whole saga of the transfer of the ex-LSWR lines west of Exeter (aka the Withered Arm) and the S&D, to the Western Region, was highly divisive and controversial at the time. Many railway staff whose employment went back to the Grouping or even pre-Grouping era were most unhappy at the change, and the acrimony lasted for many years after, hence my comment.

Indeed, the redrawing of the borders wasn't well received at all.

However, it's a long time ago now, and the modern GWR has little in common with its big four predecessor. The marketing execs who chose the name may not even have heard of the history or realised that the original ACE was a South Western dagger into the heart of the old Great Western .

While the owners changed, it is worth noting that the route itself (until Beeching et al a little while after) did not. Seeing as the route is still (broadly as far as possible) roughly the same, I think it's perfectly fair for Great Western to carry on the torch, so to speak.