£2 fare cap comes to Scotland:

[Buzby]

What percentage of public transport users in the Glasgow region use it?

I’ve not been able to see any usage figures from SPT, but with almost every city noting commuting has seriously diminished since 2019, the promise of a COP-style alternative where you could load a card on a PAYG basis, and if you didn’t travel, you didn’t lose your money. Zonecards weren’t an alternative (just more of the same with small areas and calendar-based usage). There is a large potential market out there for 22-59yo having a card that is a no-fuss alternative. Clearly it would be restricted to the old Strathclyde boundaries but even then still worth it. Interesting to note that island ferries are excluded from ZoneCard, which is a major oversight.

 

[Stan Drews]

What percentage of public transport users in the Glasgow region use it? It is undercut by not only single mode tickets, but also single operator tickets. This means fewer people take advantage of the obvious potential benefits of connections between bus and train in a region with quite a dense rail network.

No idea on the percentages, but it is most commonly used by those who travel by train and also use the bus and/or subway, which is largely who it is aimed at.

 

[johncrossley]

No idea on the percentages, but it is most commonly used by those who travel by train and also use the bus and/or subway, which is largely who it is aimed at.

Well obviously people who *currently* change modes will use it. But my point is that many people won't change because the Zonecard ticket is undercut by single mode tickets.

 

[Stan Drews]

Well obviously people who *currently* change modes will use it. But my point is that many people won't change because the Zonecard ticket is undercut by single mode tickets.

I know it’s a well worn argument, and your view is well known, so little point diverting this thread off course too, but I think you’re well aware that people benefit from the cheaper single mode tickets because they don’t need to use the other modes.

 

[Observer]

The manifesto proposal is simply unworkable. Local, short distance routes? Might work to an extent but not all day long. The likes of Glasgow to Aberdeen for example, that's simply not going to work at all.

More companies will go to the wall and shut down, there'll be less routes and less choice, as seen with the concession card rollout over the years. And let's not forget about the cost of fuel, insurance, drivers etc.

And then you have the argument about the trains, make the bus fares cheap and the train lines will become unviable eventually and suddenly there won't be a need to replace trains on lines that are not suitable for electrification.

Just my opinion anyway. It's more pie in the sky nonsense to get people to vote for them just like all the other promises over the years.

 

[Buzby]

It's more pie in the sky nonsense to get people to vote for them just like all the other promises over the years.

It has to be said, from ALL parties, I’ve always treated it as an aspiration and nothing more - and to be fair, one is just as bad as the other.

 

[AilsaBus]

The manifesto proposal is simply unworkable. Local, short distance routes? Might work to an extent but not all day long. The likes of Glasgow to Aberdeen for example, that's simply not going to work at all.

More companies will go to the wall and shut down, there'll be less routes and less choice, as seen with the concession card rollout over the years. And let's not forget about the cost of fuel, insurance, drivers etc.

And then you have the argument about the trains, make the bus fares cheap and the train lines will become unviable eventually and suddenly there won't be a need to replace trains on lines that are not suitable for electrification.

Just my opinion anyway. It's more pie in the sky nonsense to get people to vote for them just like all the other promises over the years.

How many companies "went to the wall" in England when the £2 cap was in operation down there?

 

[overthewater]

How many companies "went to the wall" in England when the £2 cap was in operation down there?

None, but a few have pulled out of the scheme, also down south they don't have the £2 on intercity coaches.

It may get to the point that certain express routes like Glasgow - Aberdeen or Edinburgh to Dundee will not be included in the scheme.

 

[AilsaBus]

I asked because some people on here are acting like the entire Scottish Bus Industry will collapse into oblivion if a £2 fare cap is introduced.

 

[johncrossley]

Is this scheme voluntary like the English one?

 

[GusB]

Is this scheme voluntary like the English one?

Yes. Moray Council, which runs tendered routes as well as the dial-a-bus network, has chosen not to participate, while Stagecoach does.

 

[Flying Snail]

The manifesto proposal is simply unworkable. Local, short distance routes? Might work to an extent but not all day long. The likes of Glasgow to Aberdeen for example, that's simply not going to work at all.

More companies will go to the wall and shut down, there'll be less routes and less choice, as seen with the concession card rollout over the years. And let's not forget about the cost of fuel, insurance, drivers etc.

And then you have the argument about the trains, make the bus fares cheap and the train lines will become unviable eventually and suddenly there won't be a need to replace trains on lines that are not suitable for electrification.

Just my opinion anyway. It's more pie in the sky nonsense to get people to vote for them just like all the other promises over the years.

Does this apply to just the £2 fares or does it include all of the classes of free bus fares on those routes; the elderly, young and others?

 

[Stan Drews]

I asked because some people on here are acting like the entire Scottish Bus Industry will collapse into oblivion if a £2 fare cap is introduced.

I think that’s unlikely, although as none of the political soundbites ever have any details backing them up, it’s hard to tell what the impact would be. If they actually provided appropriate funding and discussed it properly with the industry, it could become a very useful tool. However, as that’s never happened before, it’s highly unlikely to happen in the future.

 

[markymark2000]

I think that’s unlikely, although as none of the political soundbites ever have any details backing them up, it’s hard to tell what the impact would be. If they actually provided appropriate funding and discussed it properly with the industry, it could become a very useful tool. However, as that’s never happened before, it’s highly unlikely to happen in the future.

I remember Ralph Roberts saying on Twitter a while ago that if concessionary reimbursement was 100% then at the time he could have a £2.20 flat fare across McGills West set commercially with no separate funding. I believe he has since deleted the tweet sadly.

He makes a great point though, we don't need another separate scheme to get bus fares down. Just stop throwing out free travel to half of the population and refusing to reimburse it properly. The only reason fares are so astronomically high is because operators are essentially told to charge high fares to if they want to get any sensible rates for OAPs and under 22s.

 

[Bungle965]

Little reminder to make sure the conversation is relevant here please! Discussions here are to be around the £2 fare cap only! Many Thanks

 

[tbtc]

I asked because some people on here are acting like the entire Scottish Bus Industry will collapse into oblivion if a £2 fare cap is introduced.

IMHO, the problem is not the £2 cap, it's the fact that this cap is clearly only a temporary measure (in the run up to a Holyrood election, coincidentally)

A gimmick will be popular in the short term (who wouldn't love doing best part of a hundred miles for just £2 single?), but it's not going to last long enough for operators to take long term decisions to invest in bigger fleets etc

It's a sticking plaster for rural routes, and whilst putting a plaster on is generally a painless process, the same isn't necessarily the case with removing a plaster

We've seen in England that the £2 fares didn't create huge demand from new passengers (although obviously the English scheme was focused on ordinary buses rather than long distance coaches), but the rise to £2.50 and then £3 causes a lot of negativity, even though many passengers are still paying less than their 2020 ticket would probably have risen to (even before the Iran business)

Personally, I think the rural areas would have benefitted from something more like franchising, medium/longer term guarantees about service levels etc. But that would have meant medium/ long term planning, politicians giving certainties

Instead, we've got the sugar rush of ridiculously cheap fares for a brief period (on top of the large number of free passengers), after which we'll have seen a lot of public money spent with likely nothing to show for it

I worry that, in a few years time, people will be talking about the "boom" in coach services during the 2020s in the way that we talk of short lived "bus wars" around 1990, when housing estates suddenly had a sudden services an hour (before dwindling down to the half hourly bus we have today)

I'm sure it's great for those who can take advantage of these tickets, I'd have loved it. But we all know it won't last, and it'll be awkward when the funding runs out, reality bites and the jump in fares sees a cut in services

Happy to be proved wrong, mind

 

[PG]

Yes. Moray Council, which runs tendered routes as well as the dial-a-bus network, has chosen not to participate, while Stagecoach does.

Are you sure? I was only charged £2 a week ago on a Moray Council bus when previously the fare was £4.50.

 

[GusB]

Are you sure? I was only charged £2 a week ago on a Moray Council bus when previously the fare was £4.50.

Not 100%, but it was reported earlier in the thread that the council wasn't going to be taking part. If there has been a change since then, I haven't heard anything. If so, it's certainly good news.

 

[overthewater]

Colin MacKay of STV is saying First minster will look into £2 bus fares in first 100 days, So by August we should hear if he able to find the money to expand the system or ditch it.

 

[overthewater]

Unfortunately its not looking good moving forward with this plan. I dare say Swinney will end up working with the Lib dems to cut the budget defect.

Why the signs are already looking bad for the SNP's £2 bus fare gimmick

Those who hoped the SNP’s days of over-promising and under-delivering were behind them may be disappointed

www.scotsman.com

Government policies designed to increase the number of people taking the bus should, for obvious reasons, be welcome news to bus companies. However, the SNP have somehow managed to turn a pledge to cap bus fares at £2 into a source of confusion and concern.
According to the party’s manifesto, the original plan was to extend the current trial in the Highlands, Moray, Argyll and Bute, and the Northern and Western Isles to the rest of the country by “taking forward” legislation by 2031.

But, during the campaign, John Swinney suddenly pledged that subsidised fares would be introduced in Glasgow, Ayrshire, Dunbartonshire, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Inverclyde within the SNP’s first 100 days of government. The problem with making policy ‘on the hoof’ is that someone then has to work out what it actually means.

Ralph Roberts, of McGill’s Buses, has now said that “to date, we have received no detail from the Scottish Government on how it would work in practice”, adding that this “makes it extremely difficult for us to plan ahead as a business”. “Bluntly, this is not the first time bus services have featured prominently in manifesto commitments with little or no prior consultation with the sector,” he said. “At the [2021] Scottish election, the SNP pledged to remove the majority of fossil fuel buses from public transport in Scotland by 2023 – a target that came as a surprise to operators at the time and was, of course, missed.”

With current fares of up to £11.40, one problem could be that the dramatically reduced price causes a sudden, massive increase in the number of passengers, with crowded buses forced to drive past queues of people waiting at stops.
The Scotsman would generally support efforts to increase use of public transport, given the associated economic benefits and reductions in congestion and pollution. However, a rushed, ill-considered policy that was more an election gimmick than a serious proposal may end up doing more harm than good. Like many observers, we had hoped the SNP were moving on from over-promising and under-delivering. John Swinney hasn’t even been formally installed as First Minister and already the signs are looking grim.

 

[AilsaBus]

Unfortunately its not looking good moving forward with this plan. I dare say Swinney will end up working with the Lib dems to cut the budget defect.

Why the signs are already looking bad for the SNP's £2 bus fare gimmick

Those who hoped the SNP’s days of over-promising and under-delivering were behind them may be disappointed

www.scotsman.com

Be nice if people didn't post links to payware articles...

 

[Metal Mickey]

Unfortunately its not looking good moving forward with this plan. I dare say Swinney will end up working with the Lib dems to cut the budget defect.

Why the signs are already looking bad for the SNP's £2 bus fare gimmick

Those who hoped the SNP’s days of over-promising and under-delivering were behind them may be disappointed

www.scotsman.com

It’s from The Scotsman Newspaper, they like every other news outlet will give their biased take on the matter.

 

[RiverDon]

Funny that they're quoting the chairman of McGills, the firm owned by the Easdale brothers who donated £300000 in January to the Labour election campaign. Money well spent?!

 

[Buzby]

It’s from The Scotsman Newspaper, they like every other news outlet will give their biased take on the matter.

Staunchly Unionist in nature and remains the tories biased mouthpiece.

 

[overthewater]

The fact this thread he become political is ridiculous and disgraceful.

We already know the scheme is not well designed since they were running around like headless Chickens. I had HOPED they would have learnt but it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Deerfold]

The fact this thread he become political is ridiculous and disgraceful.

We already know the scheme is not well designed since they were running around like headless Chickens. I had HOPED they would have learnt but it doesn't seem to be the case.

You've been very clear from the start you don't like this scheme, but when I asked in March what you didn't like, I got no reply.

How do you know the scheme isn't well designed?

What don't you like about it so far?

Went is it disgraceful that it's "become political"?

 

[JKP]

Perhaps it would be more palatable if the fare cap was £3.00 as in many parts of England and if Scottish Citylink, Flixbus, Ember were excluded? I do realise that the latter would be an issue especially in the Highlands where the long distance routes are often the only public transport available between settlements. A mileage limit perhaps to enable residents to reach their nearest shopping facility, doctors etc or a requirement for pre booking for travel over a certain distance?

It will be very interesting to learn what the effect will be over summer in the Highlands. Will there be duplication where needed say between Inverness and Ullapool or Inverness and Scrabster? Does anyone know what the position will be and who meets the cost ?

 

[AilsaBus]

The fact this thread he become political is ridiculous and disgraceful.

We already know the scheme is not well designed since they were running around like headless Chickens. I had HOPED they would have learnt but it doesn't seem to be the case.

In what way is it not well designed?

 

[N1]

Does anyone know what the position will be and who meets the cost ?

I sent an FOI to Transport Scotland in April for details of the Reimbursement method for operators, but they skirted round the issue. I have just sent another request asking for detailed reimbursement rates.

 

[GusB]

The fact this thread he become political is ridiculous and disgraceful.

The thread has been political from the outset. Let's re-visit the opening post from last December:

Not sure what to make of this? You can tell the Scottish elections are next May, and the pilot scheme is the area with the fewest people.

By June, I bet it's forgotten all about.

The areas of Scotland to benefit from £2 trial bus fare cap revealed

Bus campaigners fear the pilot will increase the transport poverty gap in areas with no services

www.scotsman.com

A suggestion that the scheme merely an attempt to gain votes ahead of the next election is a political statement, isn't it? Who wrote that post? Oh, it was you!
It's a policy that was announced by a governing political party, therefore it's nigh-on impossible to remove the politics from the situation.

We already know the scheme is not well designed since they were running around like headless Chickens. I had HOPED they would have learnt but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Please do share your suggestions for making the scheme better. Have you contacted one of your MSPs with these proposals? What did they say? It's easy to sit in your armchair and criticise, but you've so far failed to come up with any better suggestions.

See this post:

Perhaps it would be more palatable if the fare cap was £3.00 as in many parts of England and if Scottish Citylink, Flixbus, Ember were excluded? I do realise that the latter would be an issue especially in the Highlands where the long distance routes are often the only public transport available between settlements. A mileage limit perhaps to enable residents to reach their nearest shopping facility, doctors etc or a requirement for pre booking for travel over a certain distance?

£3 wouldn't be unreasonable, although I'm not going to complain too much about the current £2; it has made a significant difference to me personally. I wouldn't also be completely against a distance cap, although the difficulty with that is deciding where to draw the line. A blanket ban on using express services would be unpalatable for the reasons you've mentioned, but I don't think that it's sustainable to have a £2 cap on journeys such as Inverness to Edinburgh or Glasgow.

On the other hand, the cap may encourage people to have a family day out that would otherwise have been unaffordable because of transport costs; money will still be spent, but elsewhere in the economy. A day out to somewhere like Inverness by bus now becomes much more attractive and competitive, when you consider things like parking charges and the hassle of trying to find somewhere to park in the first place.