Stagecoach Cumbria and North Lancashire

[satters]

I don't see an S6,
but there is an S1 Tuesdays & Thursdays

https://www.dalesbus.org/uploads/1/1/3/9/113919127/s1.pdf

https://www.dalesbus.org/uploads/1/1/3/9/113919127/summermap.pdf

 

[RELL6L]

Do you know how?

The Western Dales S1 runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays and connects in Kirkby Stephen with the Stagecoach 563 to Appleby and Penrith. There is no morning departure from Kendal though, but it is possible to do a round trip going via Keswick. Worth doing on a sunny day!

 

[dsjs1990]

Do you know how?

You could also use the Lonsdale Bus 571/572 from Kendal to Kirkby Stephen then change to the 563 there. They are both once weekly too.

 

[JKP]

I don't see an S6,
but there is an S1 Tuesdays & Thursdays

https://www.dalesbus.org/uploads/1/1/3/9/113919127/s1.pdf

https://www.dalesbus.org/uploads/1/1/3/9/113919127/summermap.pdf

There is a S5 on Fridays from Kendal to Kirkby Stephen three times a day. There is a connection that can be made with the 563 to Penrith on the second journey at the Co-op. Not checked the other two.

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure the reason but for some reason last Saturday all duties on 280 Preston-Skipton service were in the hands of double deckers

 

[Russel]

Sorry if it's been asked already, but why are a couple of the 599 B5TL Wrights making an appearance on the 78 and the older E400 open tops making an appearance on the 599?

 

[dsjs1990]

Sorry if it's been asked already, but why are a couple of the 599 B5TL Wrights making an appearance on the 78 and the older E400 open tops making an appearance on the 599?

Kendal are running the 78 this summer for the first time. They have ran it the last 2 winters.

 

[mangad]

Sorry if it's been asked already, but why are a couple of the 599 B5TL Wrights making an appearance on the 78 and the older E400 open tops making an appearance on the 599?

For whatever reason, operation of the summer 78 appears to have moved from Lillyhall to Kendal depot. Kendal operated the 78 for the last two winters and it rather looks like they've taken the decision to consolidate the open top fleet at Kendal. Given how unreliable Lillyhall's open top buses have been over the last few summers, this is probably no bad move. And it's notable that only one of the former Lillyhall open top vehicles have tracked since the summer season began - and it's only been on the 599.

I have no insight but my guess would be quite simply that given Keswick is further from Kendal depot than Lillyhall, they've decided to put newer vehicles on the 78, presumably as they're more reliable. If anything goes wrong at Seatoller, Kendal depot is a long way away.

The only one of old Lillyhall fleet out on the 599 is 19574 on the 599 - a 16 year old ADL Enviro400. So if it has any problems, it's a lot closer to the depot.

There's three other vehicles that haven't tracked at all this year. The youngest of those is 19 years old, the oldest 25. I'd guess they're not going to be using them. It does seem to have left them a vehicle short - if you look at the tracking there's regularly a closed top on either the 78 or the 599. Maybe they're waiting on an extra vehicle or two.

Also looks like there hasn't been a single open top on the 508 this year. Although that may be related to the Kirkstone Pass closure causing operational issues.

 

[Russel]

Kendal are running the 78 this summer for the first time. They have ran it the last 2 winters.

For whatever reason, operation of the summer 78 appears to have moved from Lillyhall to Kendal depot. Kendal operated the 78 for the last two winters and it rather looks like they've taken the decision to consolidate the open top fleet at Kendal. Given how unreliable Lillyhall's open top buses have been over the last few summers, this is probably no bad move. And it's notable that only one of the former Lillyhall open top vehicles have tracked since the summer season began - and it's only been on the 599.

I have no insight but my guess would be quite simply that given Keswick is further from Kendal depot than Lillyhall, they've decided to put newer vehicles on the 78, presumably as they're more reliable. If anything goes wrong at Seatoller, Kendal depot is a long way away.

The only one of old Lillyhall fleet out on the 599 is 19574 on the 599 - a 16 year old ADL Enviro400. So if it has any problems, it's a lot closer to the depot.

There's three other vehicles that haven't tracked at all this year. The youngest of those is 19 years old, the oldest 25. I'd guess they're not going to be using them. It does seem to have left them a vehicle short - if you look at the tracking there's regularly a closed top on either the 78 or the 599. Maybe they're waiting on an extra vehicle or two.

Also looks like there hasn't been a single open top on the 508 this year. Although that may be related to the Kirkstone Pass closure causing operational issues.

Thanks for the insight!

I've not been up to the Lakes for a couple of years and was having a look on Bustimes while putting together a potential day trip and spotted 17 plates on the 78!

 

[dsjs1990]

For whatever reason, operation of the summer 78 appears to have moved from Lillyhall to Kendal depot. Kendal operated the 78 for the last two winters and it rather looks like they've taken the decision to consolidate the open top fleet at Kendal. Given how unreliable Lillyhall's open top buses have been over the last few summers, this is probably no bad move. And it's notable that only one of the former Lillyhall open top vehicles have tracked since the summer season began - and it's only been on the 599.

I have no insight but my guess would be quite simply that given Keswick is further from Kendal depot than Lillyhall, they've decided to put newer vehicles on the 78, presumably as they're more reliable. If anything goes wrong at Seatoller, Kendal depot is a long way away.

The only one of old Lillyhall fleet out on the 599 is 19574 on the 599 - a 16 year old ADL Enviro400. So if it has any problems, it's a lot closer to the depot.

There's three other vehicles that haven't tracked at all this year. The youngest of those is 19 years old, the oldest 25. I'd guess they're not going to be using them. It does seem to have left them a vehicle short - if you look at the tracking there's regularly a closed top on either the 78 or the 599. Maybe they're waiting on an extra vehicle or two.

Also looks like there hasn't been a single open top on the 508 this year. Although that may be related to the Kirkstone Pass closure causing operational issues.

I wonder if Kendal have picked up the 78 due to Lilyhall getting a few new routes over the last few months from BSIP whilst at the same time there being several articles in the press about the poor performance of Stagecoach services run out of Lilyhall!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wonder if Kendal have picked up the 78 due to Lilyhall getting a few new routes over the last few months from BSIP whilst at the same time there being several articles in the press about the poor performance of Stagecoach services run out of Lilyhall!

Doubt it - I reckon that @mangad is on the right lines. You consolidate the open toppers at one depot and it means that the B5TLs can do the 78 (as they should be more reliable) and the older fleet can be kept as spares/used on 599.

Of course, it would be good if they went and got some 13/14 plates and chopped them so they have something newer than the really elderly fleet, or even some new open toppers (though I'd be amazed if that happened).

 

[route101]

I take it the the 77 route is not suitable for open topper or double deck operation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2026 ==

Not to sure the reason but for some reason last Saturday all duties on 280 Preston-Skipton service were in the hands of double deckers

Perhaps a busy service on Saturday.

 

[RELL6L]

I take it the the 77 route is not suitable for open topper or double deck operation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2026 ==


Perhaps a busy service on Saturday.

That would be outstanding! But the roads are far too narrow for anything other than a Solo. I think they have to be the narrow Solos too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I take it the the 77 route is not suitable for open topper or double deck operation?

As @RELL6L says, it would be epic but too narrow and a surprising amount of tree cover at lower altitudes and even along Crummock Water

 

[Strathtay 260]

There's three other vehicles that haven't tracked at all this year. The youngest of those is 19 years old, the oldest 25. I'd guess they're not going to be using them. It does seem to have left them a vehicle short - if you look at the tracking there's regularly a closed top on either the 78 or the 599. Maybe they're waiting on an extra vehicle or two.

The plan is to use all three. 16943 is getting repainted at the moment into the Lakes livery and will run the 508 open topper, 17692 will run where needed and 19161 will be Kendal based for the 78 and 599.

However I'm not sure how near we are to any of them entering service.

I have no insight but my guess would be quite simply that given Keswick is further from Kendal depot than Lillyhall, they've decided to put newer vehicles on the 78, presumably as they're more reliable. If anything goes wrong at Seatoller, Kendal depot is a long way away.

On paper, 19161 and 19574 should be running the 78 out of Kendal however this is exactly what I think too. 19574 already ran the 78 for one or two days this year and had a problem! Seems to be going not too bad on the 599.

 

[Russel]

That would be outstanding! But the roads are far too narrow for anything other than a Solo. I think they have to be the narrow Solos too.

Just imagine doing the Honnister Pass on an open topper!

The plan is to use all three. 16943 is getting repainted at the moment into the Lakes livery and will run the 508 open topper, 17692 will run where needed and 19161 will be Kendal based for the 78 and 599.

Good to see the B7TL survive another season!

 

[mangad]

On paper, 19161 and 19574 should be running the 78 out of Kendal however this is exactly what I think too. 19574 already ran the 78 for one or two days this year and had a problem! Seems to be going not too bad on the 599.

Whilst busier, the 599 has got to be less taxing route than the twists, turns, bumps and more of the 78. I love riding the 78, but it's a bit of a rollercoaster ride!

 

[Strathtay 260]

Yeah I love the 78 rollercoaster

 

[lrbvoyager]

Just imagine doing the Honnister Pass on an open topper!



Good to see the B7TL survive another season!

I was hoping it would get scrapped!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was hoping it would get scrapped!

To be honest, all the older open toppers (16943, 17692 and 19161) really are too old for relatively punishing work that is some distance from their base depots. Fine for trundling along Skegness seafront but not grinding around the Lake District's hilly spots.

 

[Acathater]

To be honest, all the older open toppers (16943, 17692 and 19161) really are too old for relatively punishing work that is some distance from their base depots. Fine for trundling along Skegness seafront but not grinding around the Lake District's hilly spots.

Send them to Morecambe! We've not had an open top service along the prom since LCT was closed down

 

[Steve440]

Send them to Morecambe! We've not had an open top service along the prom since LCT was closed down

I once wrote to Stagecoach suggesting open-toppers in Morecambe after visiting on a fine day and they said they had been considering it, but this was a few years ago now probably pre-covid. I was there again earlier this year and I still think it would be a good idea, you've only got to look at Skegness to see how it could be a winner.

 

[Strathtay 260]

be honest, all the older open toppers (16943, 17692 and 19161) really are too old for relatively punishing work that is some distance from their base depots

Makes you wonder when they will next invest in new open toppers. Really doubt it's anytime soon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Makes you wonder when they will next invest in new open toppers. Really doubt it's anytime soon.

To be honest, it's rare that any operator invests in new open toppers and not certain about the financials so I agree it probably won't be anytime soon.

During the winter months, you have barely enough work for 7 vehicles (probably about 3 with a spare) so there's 3/4 current vehicles that are incurring depreciation without working. Even if you got 4 new vehicles and worked them through the winter, you're going to have 7 B5LHs also needing depreciating.

I think the more logical approach is to get 4 vehicles (c.2014 vintage) and convert them. That way they're old enough to have less book value but young enough to a) be reliable and b) have the chance to pay off the conversion costs.

 

[Teapot42]

During the winter months, you have barely enough work for 7 vehicles (probably about 3 with a spare) so there's 3/4 current vehicles that are incurring depreciation without working.

Do any manufacturers do removable top buses? Granted you'd need somewhere to store and means of fitting / removing the tops, but then the vehicles would be usable year-round. Indeed, if the fitting / removal was easy enough it could even be done based on weather, rather than having to have spare closed-top buses to use on bad days.

I'd guess though that they need less buses all-round in the winter, so still not the magic bullet.

I think the more logical approach is to get 4 vehicles (c.2014 vintage) and convert them.

Stagecoach did similar for the Peak Sightseer, although the three they converted were 2010 vintage. They are Scanias, so should be good for several years yet.

I'd imagine with various Zebra schemes on the go there should be some buses of a suitable age coming up somewhere?

 

[Andyh82]

Ideally they need Stagecoach in Cambridge to win some sort of ZEBRA bid for electric open top buses for the Cambridge City sightseeing service (like happened in Oxford). The matching buses that follow on from 13807 could then migrate to the lakes.

 

[Acathater]

.....Indeed, if the fitting / removal was easy enough it could even be done based on weather, rather than having to have spare closed-top buses to use on bad days......

Bad days? Kendal seem to have no qualms about sending the Wright open toppers out in midwinter on the 555 after snow.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do any manufacturers do removable top buses? Granted you'd need somewhere to store and means of fitting / removing the tops, but then the vehicles would be usable year-round. Indeed, if the fitting / removal was easy enough it could even be done based on weather, rather than having to have spare closed-top buses to use on bad days.

I'd guess though that they need less buses all-round in the winter, so still not the magic bullet.

Convertibles are often mentioned but as you say, they come with a range of challenges - the storage is one, the need to get in a crane to lift them on/off, they are more prone to leaks and drafts. The issue isn't really closed top spares on bad days - it's just the different PVRs at different times of the year.

I know that morebus have some 17 plates that are convertible (for Purbeck routes) but who else might be able to accommodate that requirement, I don't know.

Stagecoach did similar for the Peak Sightseer, although the three they converted were 2010 vintage. They are Scanias, so should be good for several years yet.

I'd imagine with various Zebra schemes on the go there should be some buses of a suitable age coming up somewhere?

The Peak Scanias were where my head was at. They are 2010/1 and were chopped in 2024 so two years on... hence why some 2013/4 ones would be about the right age.

Problem is that Stagecoach has a lot of very knackered ADL e400s (and even Tridents) so they've got their work cut out getting rid of them!!

 

[Teapot42]

Convertibles are often mentioned but as you say, they come with a range of challenges - the storage is one, the need to get in a crane to lift them on/off, they are more prone to leaks and drafts.

If there was enough demand then you could engineer something that is sectional, which would be much easier to get up and install. Could even allow the amount of open space to be varied based on season and conditions. However, the engineering work going in to designing and building that is significant, so would need enough customer base to justify. I've not seen that many (non-coach based) open toppers that aren't converted from life expired service buses, so I doubt there would be the market for ADL or Wright to explore such a solution.

The Peak Scanias were where my head was at. They are 2010/1 and were chopped in 2024 so two years on... hence why some 2013/4 ones would be about the right age.

That's led me to wonder - are there any open top E400MMCs? A quick google doesn't throw anything up. I wonder if the new body makes conversion harder, as the more modern open-tops seem to be Wright or MCV.

 

[stevieinselby]

I take it the the 77 route is not suitable for open topper or double deck operation?

Not a chance. It's only suitable for small Solos (or something of a similar size), I doubt you would be able to get even a single-decker 11×2.5m bus along the route, and even if theoretically would fit then it would certainly run a much bigger risk of getting stuck when trying to pass other traffic. A double-decker would fall foul of overhanging trees and would be potentially less stable with a higher centre-of-gravity, which is not what you want on 25% gradients, hairpin bends and sheer drops! Having ridden the 77A at the weekend, the driver did an excellent job but there were several occasions where oncoming traffic thought it was easier for him to reverse an Optare Solo out of their way than for them to reverse their VW Polo out of our way ... and the thing is, they were probably right! The only driver we met who immediately jumped into reverse and backed up was in a Transit, some cars did back up but only when it was clear that we couldn't.