Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

[JasonL]

Not very nice of you to say due to a difference of opinion. Constructive criticism is welcome. Here is the thrust of my argument. The 360 will be run under a permit as the Liverpool City Region won't take it on come October so Arriva to keep a foothold in Manchester will move it and run it from their Runcorn depot. The permit could be refused and the bee network take over the route and run it according to it's standards as it is a key corridor and is the only route that runs currently between Abram and Golborne. This is similar to what was done with the x5 from warrington to the airport which was axed due to a disagreement in funding when franchising was new. Two new routes were then introduced. One from Altrincham to the airport and one from Altrincham to Lymm. I disagreed with this but that's what transpired and should happen here with the 360.

What is clueless is creating a new link when there is enough service provision within Merseyside between Newton and St Helens making the creation of a new route outside of Greater Manchester redundant. With my proposal above, the 360 would be improved and the neighboring authority could improve services at Newton station to allow for onward connections. There is only one way that the new route from Newton to St Helens could be competitive is by bypassing Earlestown alltogether. Any other route, such as following the 34 or the 20 down vista road towards haydock will cause unnecessary overlaps with existing routes. My takes on things is based on my observations and intricate knowledge of passenger flows. What needs to be answered is why this link is more important than improving the frequencies on routes in in the 10 boroughs which are two hourly at certain times.

Maybe it's to do with the fact of how Andy Burnham grew up and was educated in Newton-le-Willows. I know it sounds biased but still it's an opinion or suggestion.

 

[D9006]

I think that post relates to the map shared a couple weeks ago in post #1368 with proposals for improvement.
Wigan has:
New service 612 = Wigan - Ince - Platt Bridge - Abram - Golborne - Newton-le-Willows - St Helens.
The 615 (Wigan - Middlebrook) is being extended to Bolton.
Unknown timetable changes for 575 and 132

Do we have a date for the announcement of service changes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2026 ==

Are they getting more double deckers, or will it just be a few extra services working around school buses?

during the course of the day I pass numerous 132s at all points on the route, I have yet to see a buses full with any standing passengers, the problem with single decks is the seats at the rear are only 50% occupied

 

[adam rogan]

In a sense tfgm have already shown intent to register a new service for half of that route with this new link to St Helens with a divergence at Newton? I'm just saying that instead of terminating it at St Helens, running it to Warrington makes more sense by every metric but I'm not the one calling the shots. They've already made their mind up so we'll see what happens. Let's just hope they space out the timetable and not follow each other all the way.

Fyi. TFGM currently funds the 22a during the evenings and on Sundays so my proposals aren't clueless. I'm just saying that should apply their current funding practise at these times to the entirety of the week but I'll let this go.

Extending the 615 to terminate at Bolton is a step in the right direction.

during the course of the day I pass numerous 132s at all points on the route, I have yet to see a buses full with any standing passengers, the problem with single decks is the seats at the rear are only 50% occupied

The bus does get full coming back from the Trafford Centre at certain times. Sometimes causing people to be left behind. Try catching it during the half term. In comparitive terms, I'd say the patronage is better than on the 607.

 

[JasonL]

Do we have a date for the announcement of service changes

Nope nothing yet.

 

[M60lad]

With the new 612 Wigan-St Helens service and the extension of 615 to Bolton where are the vehicles due to come from to operate these services?

The same can be asked with the planned extension of 388 or will it be 389 Ashton-Hyde via Yew Tree service

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do Bee Network have any bus service plans to serve Parbold from a depot within Greater Manchester?

 

[JasonL]

With the new 612 Wigan-St Helens service and the extension of 615 to Bolton where are the vehicles due to come from to operate these services?

The same can be asked with the planned extension of 388 or will it be 389 Ashton-Hyde via Yew Tree service

Apparently some services MAY be scrapped to allow buses to run on those services.

 

[Mollman]

Do Bee Network have any bus service plans to serve Parbold from a depot within Greater Manchester?

Not to my knowledge. There are already two trains and hour to Wigan and Manchester, which is good for a place the size of Parbold. Anyone who wants to use the bus has the hourly 312 to Skem then onwards on Arriva.

 

[D9006]

Apparently some services MAY be scrapped to allow buses to run on those services.

I would expect the 629 to be withdrawn but that uses a bus during the school run, the same with the 615. Unless timetable is to be worked around the schools

 

[mayneway]

The same can be asked with the planned extension of 388 or will it be 389 Ashton-Hyde via Yew Tree service

From what I’ve read and been told the 388 will be a new service, possibly similar to the old 41a service but I’d imagine it will be run by Metroline and won’t require much as I’m assuming it will be hourly like the 389.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2026 ==

during the course of the day I pass numerous 132s at all points on the route, I have yet to see a buses full with any standing passengers, the problem with single decks is the seats at the rear are only 50% occupied

It’s been a while since I worked out of the Trafford centre but 132’s would regularly leave will full standing loads, in fact often passengers were left behind.
It’s been a long standing issue as of course Diamond used to put deckers on it every Christmas because demand was so high.

 

[mangad]

From what I’ve read and been told the 388 will be a new service, possibly similar to the old 41a service but I’d imagine it will be run by Metroline and won’t require much as I’m assuming it will be hourly like the 389.

If you go back to the 1986 timetable (which is the first one I found on the Railway Media timetable archive where the 388 went round Yew Tree and the 389 went direct so the 389 then would be very similar to the new 388 in route), the 389 was scheduled to take 38 minutes between Ashton and Hyde. Back then it was about 30 minutes for the 388 to do Ashton to Yew Tree. The current 389 is timetabled to do Ashton to Yew Tree and back in 70 minutes for an hourly service.

Using that information, 45 minutes each way for the 389. The current 389 is interworked with other routes. The 388 will be too. So yep, definitely doesn't feel like it would need much to get it going.

 

[mayneway]

If you go back to the 1986 timetable (which is the first one I found on the Railway Media timetable archive where the 388 went round Yew Tree and the 389 went direct so the 389 then would be very similar to the new 388 in route), the 389 was scheduled to take 38 minutes between Ashton and Hyde. Back then it was about 30 minutes for the 388 to do Ashton to Yew Tree. The current 389 is timetabled to do Ashton to Yew Tree and back in 70 minutes for an hourly service.

Using that information, 45 minutes each way for the 389. The current 389 is interworked with other routes. The 388 will be too. So yep, definitely doesn't feel like it would need much to get it going.

I can tell you 70 minutes isn’t enough and it’s not meeting TFGM or Metroline punctuality targets so I’d expect for timings to also be improved at the same time.

The main issue at the moment is people wanting to go to Yew Tree or in terms of the old 389 to Hyde, is that they have to go round ridge hill first which is why they tend to use the 346 or 330 direct to Hyde.
I know Tameside councillors wanted a direct Ashton - Tennyson avenue service again so can see it being something along them lines.

 

[M60lad]

Out of interest I wonder how many services in the end ended up being affected by the incident the closed Barton Bridge on M60 for most of the day yesterday? From what I can gather according to BusTimes.Org there were some services that ended up running well over an hour late, also considering how drivers duties are organised would or did this have an affect on other services due to drivers coming off for mealbreaks late?

 

[Statto]

Out of interest I wonder how many services in the end ended up being affected by the incident the closed Barton Bridge on M60 for most of the day yesterday? From what I can gather according to BusTimes.Org there were some services that ended up running well over an hour late, also considering how drivers duties are organised would or did this have an affect on other services due to drivers coming off for mealbreaks late?

Had a look & the 100 was badly affected by it, some 100s were 70 to 90 minutes late into Warrington, that the 13.52 from Warrington only ran from Trafford Centre to Manchester & was 60 late arriving in Manchester, & buses took over an hour from Eccles to Trafford Centre.

Seems a lot of services to Manchester were cut short, here's a run down on bustimes.

Vehicles – 100 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I travelled to and from Stockport to Ashton-under-Lyne on the 330 yesterday afternoon. The outward journey to Ashton followed the normal route, but the return journey (after what seemed a long stay at Hyde bus station) on reaching Veernon Park, took a different route, coming out of the area to the side road that is at the rear of the Peel Centre, then it carried on its normal route from there into the bus interchange. Has anyone any idea what might have been the cause of this route diversion?

 

[redgate]

I travelled to and from Stockport to Ashton-under-Lyne on the 330 yesterday afternoon. The outward journey to Ashton followed the normal route, but the return journey (after what seemed a long stay at Hyde bus station) on reaching Veernon Park, took a different route, coming out of the area to the side road that is at the rear of the Peel Centre, then it carried on its normal route from there into the bus interchange. Has anyone any idea what might have been the cause of this route diversion?

Roadworks on Carrington Road just after the junction with Newbridge lane, open towards Hyde but closed on the side back towards Stockport - saw them today they are still there

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2026 ==

Not just roadworks, The sink hole’s back!!

 

[D9006]

From what I’ve read and been told the 388 will be a new service, possibly similar to the old 41a service but I’d imagine it will be run by Metroline and won’t require much as I’m assuming it will be hourly like the 389.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Mar 2026 ==


It’s been a while since I worked out of the Trafford centre but 132’s would regularly leave will full standing loads, in fact often passengers were left behind.
It’s been a long standing issue as of course Diamond used to put deckers on it every Christmas because demand was so high.

Was that when it was a hourly service plus odd trips missing too, remember some 2 hour gaps in the service

 

[adam rogan]

Was that when it was a hourly service plus odd trips missing too, remember some 2 hour gaps in the service

This was since the service provision was enhanced. I used the 132 a lot over the Christmas period and the start of this year and in many instances the bus was packed heading in both directions. I believe this is what was the primary reason for the service enhancement in the first place as the hourly service was not adequate. Diamond Eccles would have used double deckers on this route as they do still appear on this route(and on the 126 with which the 132 interworks albeit less so than when it was first enhanced) but I think it was due to their limited number of deckers at the depot than anything else which prevented them from being a permanent fixture.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Moorland fires between Diggle and Marsden have led to the 184 being curtailed at Uppermill. There isn't an obvious diversion route, but I wonder what the position for passengers who travelled before the closure and how can't make their return journey is?

It feels like continuing the bus to Greenfield railway station and some form of ticket acceptance with TPE (allowing for bus passengers intending to use a walk-up fare) might have been arranged in an ideal world but I suspect it hasn't been.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It feels like continuing the bus to Greenfield railway station

The current shortened route of Oldham - Uppermill goes via Greenfield station (as per usual).


One service took a giant diversion via the M62 and despite (effectively after making it the whole way back) leaving an hour late only arrived 10 minutes late in Oldham.

10615 - SN16 OWV

ADL Enviro400 MMC

bustimes.org

 

[noddingdonkey]

I wonder whether that went back in service or tipped out at Marsden? Good point about Greenfield, I was thinking it was at the other side of Uppermill for some reason.

 

[markymark2000]

One service took a giant diversion via the M62 and despite (effectively after making it the whole way back) leaving an hour late only arrived 10 minutes late in Oldham.

IF you check the tracking, you can see that it didn't leave an hour late. It left on time. The 15:32 time shown on Bustimes is just when it tracked going past the on the way towards the M62.

It's a bit surprising though that from Marsden to Oldham it's around the same journey time if you go back to Huddersfield and then use the motorway, or if you follow the normal route. Surely that shows just how needlessly long and slow the normal route is.

 

[M60lad]

Looking at the route the driver took back from Marsden to Oldham it does seem obvious that it was probably a driver that actually knew the other route out of Huddersfield unless they were told which way to go over the radio or Ticketer.

If anyone is interested in what happened to 184s yesterday that were supposed to go to Huddersfield then they were all turned short at Uppermill where they waited there for their return journey, for example I know a driver who was on 18:03 184 Oldham-Huddersfield which got terminated at Uppermill at 18:36 and he waited at Uppermill until 20:20 when he was due there on his return journey.

As for what happens to any cross boundary passengers I was thinking the same as due to being stuck in Uppermill last night the last journey from Huddersfield at 19:40 failed to operate.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

IF you check the tracking, you can see that it didn't leave an hour late. It left on time. The 15:32 time shown on Bustimes is just when it tracked going past the on the way towards the M62.

Yes I had noticed that, that is why I put "(effectively after making it the whole way back) leaving an hour late", since even though it didn't serve the bus station, it did still leave Huddersfield an hour after the expected time (even though it was the 2nd time leaving).

 

[noddingdonkey]

Surely that shows just how needlessly long and slow the normal route is.

I'm not sure that's fair, the link to Uppermill is useful. The tedious Greenacres loop less so.

 

[stait.john]

Looking up the 217 (as I didn't remember it), daytime was withdrawn "temporarily" in April 2023. It was previously run by Little Gem, and got caught up in the problems TfGM had finding replacement operators when Little Gem pulled the plug on itself.

The 217 was on the initial list of services to be operated by Metroline and indeed still was until quite advanced stages. Then it just disappeared.

201 extension via the old 236 routing to Glossop would be good but wouldn’t help with reliability on the main route. I remember when some of the service went to Ashton too!

 

[WibbleWobble]

201 extension via the old 236 routing to Glossop would be good but wouldn’t help with reliability on the main route. I remember when some of the service went to Ashton too!

Might be one for after when Mottram bypass is completed.

 

[adam rogan]

I spoke to a few drivers on the 263 Picadilly to Altrincham recently at the terminus asking them why this route was single deck only when the bus was full on all the trips I'd been on despite not seeing any low bridges along the route and all of them said that this was due to a height restriction at the depot. Is this why Arriva never used deckers pre-franchising and would they ever revamp the depot to allow higher vehicles or could this service benefit from an enhancement? I have a sense they were unable to justify why the bus was so full as no evidence that wythenshawe has any height restriction.

 

[JasonL]

I spotted a Bee Network E200MMC before in Earlestown possibly for route learning once the brand new 612 becomes operational. I couldn't see the fleet number or the registration plate as I saw it from a side view about 80 feet out from where I was heading towards the direction of St. Helens.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I spoke to a few drivers on the 263 Picadilly to Altrincham recently at the terminus asking them why this route was single deck only when the bus was full on all the trips I'd been on despite not seeing any low bridges along the route and all of them said that this was due to a height restriction at the depot. Is this why Arriva never used deckers pre-franchising and would they ever revamp the depot to allow higher vehicles or could this service benefit from an enhancement? I have a sense they were unable to justify why the bus was so full as no evidence that wythenshawe has any height restriction.

The 263 was operated with deckers (on occasion and fairly often) when it was operated by Arriva’s Manchester depot. When it closed, it passed to Wythenshawe whose maintenance bays couldn’t take deckers IIRC.

Just because some buses are “full” doesn’t mean it’s worthwhile having deckers.