Just for fun - a new railway after HS2

[Shrop]

It's pretty safe to assume that HS2 will be completed to Birmingham and provide some benefits for Manchester.

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?

 

[Topological]

Does this thread already assume that NPR is happening?

I assume you also do not expect answers around the extension of HS2?

Heathrow West would seem to be high on the list
More Bristol Metro
Sheffield to Leeds capacity scheme

 

[HSTEd]

London-(Clapham Junction)-Gatwick Airport-Brighton-Littlehampton-Portsmouth-Southampton-Bournemouth

Run 15+ trains per hour, all stops using the biggest loading gauge available. Metro for the South Coast, remove masses of traffic from the Brighton Main Line, South West Main Line and associated routes.

Route beats the classic railway for pretty much all journeys apart from London-Southampton, which is competitive in notional time but at far higher frequency (obviously).

It would have to be predominantly in tunnel however.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's pretty safe to assume that HS2 will be completed to Birmingham and provide some benefits for Manchester.

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?

The first project in the queue must be an extension of HS2 to Crewe. For the very reasons it was proposed in the first place!

If that’s not the answer you want to hear, then my pet fantasy high speed line is a short section of new line from Elvanfoot to Abington, going straight through the hill in the way. Only about 7-8km (but would be the thick end of a billon quid given the terrain), however it would save two minutes (being a mile shorter and at 125 rather than the various lower speeds there) which means on a £cost per minute saved it is better than most HSL lines, and the existing line would be a very useful long semi-dynamic freight loop.

 

[Farigiraf]

It's pretty safe to assume that HS2 will be completed to Birmingham and provide some benefits for Manchester.

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?

The rest of HS2 seems like a good bet to me.

 

[Nottingham59]

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?

Longer platforms at Crewe, Preston and Carlisle.
They're going to be needed to get 400m HS2 trains through the bottleneck at Colwich.

Then extend (or build new) stations in the centres of big cities with long platforms with a new twin-track railway to the edge of the conurbation. Just like HS2 is doing in Birmingham, and was going to do in Manchester and Leeds). That's the only rail investment in the UK that will boost the agglomeration effect of cities and support economic growth.

 

[Sorcerer]

To make the most out of this being a just-for-fun fantasy scenario, I'm going to operate on the assumption that HS2 is completed in full (so Phase 1 along with Phases 2a and 2b including the eastern leg) along with HS3 as part of the wider Northern Powerhouse scheme. I think possibly a HS4 running from the south-west to the West Midlands could be a decent debate to have a proper X-Shaped high-speed network centered on Birmingham.

I would hope that any InterCity journeys made on CrossCountry could then be transferred to those lines freeing up capacity but as I understand it that network is mostly used for intermediate hops unlike the three mainlines running north of London which still have a huge market for InterCity travel, particularly with Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds and Edinburgh. But hey, just for fun right?

 

[Shrop]

The rest of HS2 seems like a good bet to me.

Well that would be a great start, but it's not all that much help for Scotland.
I think there's much to be said for a HSR from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow via East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds, Teesside and Tyneside.
Route details to be developed, along with how to dovetail links from Birmingham and Manchester to Sheffield and further north.
HS2 is fine for relieving pressure on WCML, but there is plenty of scope for another full route to Scotland, all the way from London.
Note - I'm assuming an improved national enthusiasm for rail travel, with both politicians and the public recognising its benefits over car travel.
Car travel and rail travel could and should be much better integrated.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's pretty safe to assume that HS2 will be completed to Birmingham and provide some benefits for Manchester.

But if (okay a BIG if) there was both public and political support for significant further rail investment, what might be a reasonable next project?

Not original and not funny either, but
1. HS2 to Crewe
2. Some version of NPR.

The remaining parts of the original HS2 plans - including the Eastern leg, hopefully via Meadowhall again - will surely follow rapidly then.

 

[Topological]

Well that would be a great start, but it's not all that much help for Scotland.
I think there's much to be said for a HSR from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow via East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds, Teesside and Tyneside.
Route details to be developed, along with how to dovetail links from Birmingham and Manchester to Sheffield and further north.
HS2 is fine for relieving pressure on WCML, but there is plenty of scope for another full route to Scotland, all the way from London.
Note - I'm assuming an improved national enthusiasm for rail travel, with both politicians and the public recognising its benefits over car travel.
Car travel and rail travel could and should be much better integrated.

Given Edinburgh is West of Carlisle and there is nothing on the East Coast north of Leeds (apart from Newcastle) why would you go that way?

HS2 has/had the right plan routing via Carlisle.

Newcastle to York can be sped up to join the Eastern branch. Possibly with a bit of bypassing near Durham. I cannot see you would justify Newcastle to Edinburgh.

 

[saismee]

Ely North Jn upgrade anyone?

 

[JCO1406]

Crossrail 2???

 

[GRALISTAIR]

complete HS2, then NPR then electrify 90% of the remaining railway lines

 

[NCT]

HSGW - from Paddington taking an largely underground alignment south of the existing GWML, emerging onto the surface roughly west of Slough, then following the MR through Winnersh Junction, then
- continuing to south of Tadley with a branch towards Overton and Micheldever
- crossing the Barts and Hants just east of Pewsey with a connection
- crossing the Chippenham line just west of Wootton Bassett Junction with a connection
- joining the South Wales Main Line somewhere south of Malmesbury

Service wise the HSGW would carry 12tph
- 2tph Paddington - Southampton (potentially beyond to Bournemouth and Weymouth)
- 2tph Paddington - Salisbury (potentially with 1tph to Exeter), assuming the West of England line is electrified
- 2tph Paddington - Exeter and Cornwall assuming full electrification of the Barts and Hants and Cornish Main Line
- 2tph Paddington - Bristol via Chippenham
- 2tph Paddington - Bristol via Bristol Parkway
- 2tph Paddington - Cardiff (with 1tph to Swansea)

This allows the existing Main Lines on the Great Western to concentrate on outer suburban traffic at 20tph (might be a stretch and need some rationalisation)
- 4tph HEx
- 4tph first stop Slough then crossing to the Reliefs, all stations to Maidenhead
- 2tph first stop Maidenhead then all stops to Newbury (1tph extends to Westbury)
- 2tph first stop Maidenhead then all stops to Oxford
- 2tph Oxford fast calling at Reading only
- 4tph first stop Reading then all principal stations to Swindon, of which 1tph to Cheltenham, 2tph towards Chippenham, 1tph towards Cardiff

The Relief lines would be for the near exclusive use of Elizabeth line (other than freight) with all services calling at all stops, to Heathrow Terminals or Slough.

I've not worked what what the increased number of services means for station capacity at Bristol Temple Meads or Cardiff Central. Likely you'll have to accommodate the services at the existing Paddington terminal - the 12 HS services use platforms 1-6 (2 turnarounds per platform face per hour), and 20tph ML services use 7-14 (most service groups will need 4 turnarounds per hour per platform face). This means services restricted to British loading gauge and max 260m length trains. Finding space for a consistent 6-track formation between Paddington and ~Old Oak Common and a set of tunnel portals might be tricky. I've not decided whether the HSGW lines would have a station at Old Oak Common - it would certainly be desirable but could be tricky - might have to build it open cast on Wormwood Scrubs just south of North Pole Depot.

 

[MarkyT]

The first project in the queue must be an extension of HS2 to Crewe. For the very reasons it was proposed in the first place!

Hear hear!

If that’s not the answer you want to hear, then my pet fantasy high speed line is a short section of new line from Elvanfoot to Abington, going straight through the hill in the way. Only about 7-8km (but would be the thick end of a billon quid given the terrain), however it would save two minutes (being a mile shorter and at 125 rather than the various lower speeds there) which means on a £cost per minute saved it is better than most HSL lines, and the existing line would be a very useful long semi-dynamic freight loop.

I like it. It bypasses what appear to be the two tightest curves of ~1000m radius on Beattock's north ramp.

To make it more dynamic, the new up slow line on the old formation might be extended from Elvenfoot as a third track ~4km to just over Beattock summit, so freights could join the fast line there, to closely follow an express and immediately gain the acceleration benefit of the falling gradient. The only significant obstacle to that would be the B7076 overbridge, a long, two track wide concrete box structure that looks like it once carried the former dual-carriageway A74 before the motorway. Diverting the road over a new bridge in the area looks plausible.

 

[MattRat]

Here's a real fantasy: An avoiding line from near Exeter to Newton Abbot, that avoids the Dawlish coast.

I say real fantasy because despite the chances of a massive catastrophe happening increasing every day, thanks to more freak weather events and probably just due to age too (strength of embankments and tunnels decrease over time), nothing will ever be done until the line either falls into the ocean or a tunnel collapses and buries part of the line, because we can't think long term in this country.

 

[Topological]

Hear hear!

I like it. It bypasses what appear to be the two tightest curves of ~1000m radius on Beattock's north ramp.

To make it more dynamic, the new up slow line on the old formation might be extended from Elvenfoot as a third track ~4km to just over Beattock summit, so freights could join the fast line there, to closely follow an express and immediately gain the acceleration benefit of the falling gradient. The only significant obstacle to that would be the B7076 overbridge, a long, two track wide concrete box structure that looks like it once carried the former dual-carriageway A74 before the motorway. Diverting the road over a new bridge in the area looks plausible.

I could not work out where was being bypassed. Thank you for the extra detail. In my head we were in Oxfordshire and I thought it seemed a strange place to need a bypass.

Now I know the setting, I do believe that @Bald Rick suggestion is excellent. Perhaps something similar in the lake district too.

 

[Pigeon]

If that's not the answer you want to hear, then my pet fantasy high speed line is a short section of new line from Elvanfoot to Abington, going straight through the hill in the way. Only about 7-8km (but would be the thick end of a billon quid given the terrain), however it would save two minutes (being a mile shorter and at 125 rather than the various lower speeds there) which means on a £cost per minute saved it is better than most HSL lines, and the existing line would be a very useful long semi-dynamic freight loop.

Two minutes between Carlisle and Glasgow? Nobody's going to even notice. It makes as much difference which end of the train you get off. Consequently, I can think of plenty of better ways to spend a billion quid.

Furthermore, if even that is "better than most", it makes it pretty clear that there are always going to be plenty of better ways to spend a billion quid than using a nuclear sledgehammer to crack a phantom nut.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think there's much to be said for a HSR from London to Edinburgh and Glasgow via East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds, Teesside and Tyneside.

I really don’t understand this, when the most difficult third of a High Speed route to Scotland is already well under construction. Surely using that as the starting point is the right answer, rather than building another (very) expensive route into London (to where in London?)

If every London / Birmingham to Edinburgh coach, rail and air passenger switched to such an HS service, they could all be comfortably accommodated on 2tph. There is no air market to speak of to capture from any of the East midlands / Yorkshire / etc to Glasgow / Edinburgh, and not much in the way of coach traffic either. And compared to London flows, the demand is much smaller anyway.

Two minutes between Carlisle and Glasgow? Nobody's going to even notice. It makes as much difference which end of the train you get off. Consequently, I can think of plenty of better ways to spend a billion quid.

Furthermore, if even that is "better than most", it makes it pretty clear that there are always going to be plenty of better ways to spend a billion quid than using a nuclear sledgehammer to crack a phantom nut.

Of course!

 

[Shrop]

If every London / Birmingham to Edinburgh coach, rail and air passenger switched to such an HS service, they could all be comfortably accommodated on 2tph. There is no air market to speak of to capture from any of the East midlands / Yorkshire / etc to Glasgow / Edinburgh, and not much in the way of coach traffic either. And compared to London flows, the demand is much smaller anyway.

Perhaps I should say it again ...
"Note - I'm assuming an improved national enthusiasm for rail travel, with both politicians and the public recognising its benefits over car travel."

Also as I've said previously, far, far more people use cars than trains. If there was a significant transfer from road to rail for passenger travel, then a high quality rail route from London to Scotland would be justified.

My "fantasy" route would provide high quality end to end services, but also between intermediate places too, eg. Leeds to either Newcastle or Birmingham in around 45 minutes, the latter being roughly what HS2 was supposed to do.

And ... since the UK generally hasn't shown much enthusiasm for new rail routes over the last few decades, that's why this thread title starts "Just for fun"

Nevertheless, and although I might be in a small minority, I would very much like to see a much greater public and political enthusiasm for rail travel

 

[VItraveller]

I’d say the stuff proposed in the Midlands rail hub should be high up there, new Street is overcrowded as it is.

 

[Bald Rick]

Also as I've said previously, far, far more people use cars than trains.

Probably not for journeys over 250miles though. Something like 70-75% of all car trips are under 5 miles, few of those will swap to rail. It would be interesting to know how many people travelling from within the M25 London / to, say, Newcastle or the Central Belt travel by car compared to air and rail (we have the air and rail data). Perhaps someone has access to the stats out there. For example I’d bet for Newcastle they could all be accommodated on a small handful of 9 car Azumas each way daily.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

Apart from getting a high speed line all the way to Glasgow (where it should have started IMO), Then how's about a tunnel from Holyhead to Dún Laoghaire? Yes, yes, I know, we haven't the money, there's a trench somewhere, blah, blah, but I quite fancy setting off from Crewe nice an early for a few scoops in Dublin and snoozing all the way back. Grand day out, aye.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Apart from getting a high speed line all the way to Glasgow (where it should have started IMO), Then how's about a tunnel from Holyhead to Dún Laoghaire? Yes, yes, I know, we haven't the money, there's a trench somewhere, blah, blah, but I quite fancy setting off from Crewe nice an early for a few scoops in Dublin and snoozing all the way back. Grand day out, aye.

This (Beaufort’s Dyke) is between Northern Ireland and Scotland.

For full crayonista-ing add a connected All-Ireland HSL from Belfast to Cork via Dublin. Oh, and at a min the tunnel is capable of using Eurotunnel HGV carriages (inc. unaccompanied trailers). Would have a market but wouldn’t end the ferry route due to cost.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

HSGW - from Paddington taking an largely underground alignment south of the existing GWML, emerging onto the surface roughly west of Slough, then following the MR through Winnersh Junction, then
- continuing to south of Tadley with a branch towards Overton and Micheldever
- crossing the Barts and Hants just east of Pewsey with a connection
- crossing the Chippenham line just west of Wootton Bassett Junction with a connection
- joining the South Wales Main Line somewhere south of Malmesbury

Service wise the HSGW would carry 12tph
- 2tph Paddington - Southampton (potentially beyond to Bournemouth and Weymouth)
- 2tph Paddington - Salisbury (potentially with 1tph to Exeter), assuming the West of England line is electrified
- 2tph Paddington - Exeter and Cornwall assuming full electrification of the Barts and Hants and Cornish Main Line
- 2tph Paddington - Bristol via Chippenham
- 2tph Paddington - Bristol via Bristol Parkway
- 2tph Paddington - Cardiff (with 1tph to Swansea)

This allows the existing Main Lines on the Great Western to concentrate on outer suburban traffic at 20tph (might be a stretch and need some rationalisation)
- 4tph HEx
- 4tph first stop Slough then crossing to the Reliefs, all stations to Maidenhead
- 2tph first stop Maidenhead then all stops to Newbury (1tph extends to Westbury)
- 2tph first stop Maidenhead then all stops to Oxford
- 2tph Oxford fast calling at Reading only
- 4tph first stop Reading then all principal stations to Swindon, of which 1tph to Cheltenham, 2tph towards Chippenham, 1tph towards Cardiff

The Relief lines would be for the near exclusive use of Elizabeth line (other than freight) with all services calling at all stops, to Heathrow Terminals or Slough.

I've not worked what what the increased number of services means for station capacity at Bristol Temple Meads or Cardiff Central. Likely you'll have to accommodate the services at the existing Paddington terminal - the 12 HS services use platforms 1-6 (2 turnarounds per platform face per hour), and 20tph ML services use 7-14 (most service groups will need 4 turnarounds per hour per platform face). This means services restricted to British loading gauge and max 260m length trains. Finding space for a consistent 6-track formation between Paddington and ~Old Oak Common and a set of tunnel portals might be tricky. I've not decided whether the HSGW lines would have a station at Old Oak Common - it would certainly be desirable but could be tricky - might have to build it open cast on Wormwood Scrubs just south of North Pole Depot.

I think a high speed line to the West is a good idea that’s not talked enough

 

[WTT Gremlin]

I think a high speed line to the West is a good idea that’s not talked enough

Depending on where you are aiming for in the 'West' would best done in 2 routes. 1 an almost due west route from London to Swansea with stations at Heathrow; 'Wiltshire-Somerset TGV'; Bristol; & Cardiff. 2nd would be London to Cornish side of the Tamar near Plymouth via 'Surrey Hills TGV; Southampton; Bournemouth; Exeter; and Plymouth. Spur linking to uprated classic route to Portsmouth.

London avoiding route would provide the other link to Heathrow and connect it to Gatwick.

 

[HSTEd]

Depending on where you are aiming for in the 'West' would best done in 2 routes. 1 an almost due west route from London to Swansea with stations at Heathrow; 'Wiltshire-Somerset TGV'; Bristol; & Cardiff. 2nd would be London to Cornish side of the Tamar near Plymouth via 'Surrey Hills TGV; Southampton; Bournemouth; Exeter; and Plymouth. Spur linking to uprated classic route to Portsmouth.

I'm not sure a direct line from London to Southampton and West could ever be filled, but for a detour of 50km you can go to Brighton and run down the South Coast, and then you'd get all the traffic you'd need to justify the cost.

Also a major simplification of service patterns on the classic railway once the traffic needs drop right off.

 

[WTT Gremlin]

I'm not sure a direct line from London to Southampton and West could ever be filled, but for a detour of 50km you can go to Brighton and run down the South Coast, and then you'd get all the traffic you'd need to justify the cost.

Also a major simplification of service patterns on the classic railway once the traffic needs drop right off.

To speed up Brighton just needs OHLE, curves and finishing the quad formation with some 6 track further north.

Post a full HS Network the classic would be a combination of two tiers of regional and then outer and inner local.

Will release more paths than are removed due to the closer average speeds.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

This (Beaufort’s Dyke) is between Northern Ireland and Scotland.

For full crayonista-ing add a connected All-Ireland HSL from Belfast to Cork via Dublin. Oh, and at a min the tunnel is capable of using Eurotunnel HGV carriages (inc. unaccompanied trailers). Would have a market but wouldn’t end the ferry route due to cost.

Yea, there's me thinking this thread is "just for fun".

 

[HSTEd]

To speed up Brighton just needs OHLE, curves and finishing the quad formation with some 6 track further north.

That in of itself would be a hugely disruptive scheme, and even a classic 25kV railway would get crushed by a new line.

If there was a line running London (Waterloo maybe?)-Clapham Junction-Gatwick-Brighton-to the West you'd be able to make the Brighton Main Line into a purely Thameslink Affair. Save 10 paths per hour at least just to Victoria.
Plus many of the fasts on the SWML and all the peak extras to Littlehampton etc.

And it'd still have enough capacity to eat up everything west of Bournemouth if you wanted.