Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Nobody is buying cars like those for cash. It's all finance. The cash price is as good as meaningless.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
- Thread starter MattA7
- Start date
Nobody is buying cars like those for cash. It's all finance. The cash price is as good as meaningless.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Okay, so the BMW website says £845/month for the iX3. Whereas a 320i sport saloon which appears to be the cheapest 3 series model is £620/month. So the ratio of cash price seems to follow with the finance cost. (Which is unsurprising given you're effectively paying for the depreciation and EV depreciation is not any less than ICE).
You're going to need to have a pretty high annual mileage to make that back in petrol costs.
The iX3 is an SUV, the 320i is a saloon. The cheapest electric iX3 model is an M-sport series, they don’t set a ‘poverty’ spec iX3. They do sell a petrol X3 low spec model for around 44k but it’s missing numerous extra features which are all standard in the EV model including larger 20inch (and aero-enhanced) wheels, adaptive suspension, panoramic roof and an automatic tailgate. Add these into the cost of the petrol model and it’ll be much closer than 33% as other makers have shown when producing like for like cars. At some point BMW will start selling lower spec EV models too.
Sure, but the iX3 is rather more car than a 3 series. The iX3 is the electric cousin of the X3.
The cheapest new X3 in BMWs new car stock is £53,123 (a diesel) the cheapest iX3 is £57,750. Difference is £4,627. If you do 10,000 miles a year at the claimed 47.9mpg WLTP, at current diesel prices (£1.51 at the garage near me), that will cost you £1,431 a year.
The iX3 has a claimed 4miles per kWh. Using Octopus Go (8p/kWh), which is not the cheapest, the iX3 would cost £200 a year.
Essentially it has paid for itself in under 4 years. And that excludes any benefits from cheaper servicing, tax, no oil changes, no air filters to change, no need to change brake pads / discs, no AdBlue, etc etc.
Snow1964
Established Member
That might be true of new cars, but finance rates are often rubbish on nearly new and 1-3 year old cars, so many in this category work on basis of keeping car for few years and paying off finance.
I have seen pre registered cars and 6 month old cars on dealers forecourts where the few thousand pound saving, plus adding back the higher interest is a higher amount than the new price with discounts and low interest.
They only get away with it to the financially dumb, who look at a monthly payment in isolation, ignore any deposit and balloon payment and total cost of deal. The same sort of people who would think a £29.99 per month phone deal over 36 months is cheaper than a £1000 phone
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Car parks.
My local Morrisons has gained a set of chargers. But the car park is now restricted to two hours maximum stay with no return within two hours.
Now I assume that two hours would give a good charge. BUT last time I drove there (for a big shop) we ended up nearly exceeding two hours (amazingly) so I said I will not drive there anymore - too risky.
I know someone who went there to drop someone off and then within two hours was back for his own shop - done. Same would have happened if I dropped someone off and returned within two hours to to collect them again. It is a red route outside so nowhere to loiter or drop off.
Now these are parking issues but how does the two hour limit reflect on charging.
Perhaps if I went away because no chargers were available but I came back within two hours - tricked.
Or if I hung around but my actual charge started too far into the two hour limit.
A bit further away is Sainsburys - a more useful three hour limit there and actually clearer signage. Snag is I do not recall they have chargers there - need to check properly. But they have a petrol station so perhaps chargers are less likely. Irony is Morrisons give me vouchers for cheaper petrol BUT their nearest petrol station is Peckham (I am Croydon). Main interest is how do parking limits interfere with charging possibilities.
My local Morrisons has gained a set of chargers. But the car park is now restricted to two hours maximum stay with no return within two hours.
Now I assume that two hours would give a good charge. BUT last time I drove there (for a big shop) we ended up nearly exceeding two hours (amazingly) so I said I will not drive there anymore - too risky.
I know someone who went there to drop someone off and then within two hours was back for his own shop - done. Same would have happened if I dropped someone off and returned within two hours to to collect them again. It is a red route outside so nowhere to loiter or drop off.
Now these are parking issues but how does the two hour limit reflect on charging.
Perhaps if I went away because no chargers were available but I came back within two hours - tricked.
Or if I hung around but my actual charge started too far into the two hour limit.
A bit further away is Sainsburys - a more useful three hour limit there and actually clearer signage. Snag is I do not recall they have chargers there - need to check properly. But they have a petrol station so perhaps chargers are less likely. Irony is Morrisons give me vouchers for cheaper petrol BUT their nearest petrol station is Peckham (I am Croydon). Main interest is how do parking limits interfere with charging possibilities.
Is this a useful statistic? It feels like it would be an artefact of people who can charge at home being more likely to have an EV?
It doesn't - it's a red herring.
A 50kw charger will fully charge a Dacia Spring in under an hour.
Will fully charge a Hyundai Kona in 80 minutes.
Will fully charge a Tesla Model 3 in 90 minutes.
But the point is, nobody is charging from 0-100% on a supermarket trip.
Park, plug in, shop, unplug, go about your day.
The performance and refinement of the EV is going to be a world apart too.
Many people don't appreciate how nice an electric car is to drive, or that you can still have a smile on your face even without the noise of an engine roar.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
If you did decide to do a full charge and it was going to exceed the parking time, most stores let you add time or whitelist the vehicle if you ask them. The car park simply enforces the rules set by the landowner - so they can override anything.
ICE cars and motorbikes probably emit note from their cheap alternators and ignition circuits.
Remember as a kid the MW radio and TV going fuzzy when cars and motorcycles went past.
Topological
Established Member
A large chunk of EV finance is on salary sacrifice as well, which really changes the calculation. That would be particularly true of cars like the BMW iX3.
Let's also remember that there are many people who aren't really too concerned about the monthly payment. There are many cars that people buy for status as well as practicality. If it's cheap, they don't want it.
For a lot of people who have money to burn, there's still a stigma around the lack of a big powerful engine, but I think that will change with some of the crazy luxurious cars coming that mix refinement and opulence with stupid levels of performance.
For a lot of people who have money to burn, there's still a stigma around the lack of a big powerful engine, but I think that will change with some of the crazy luxurious cars coming that mix refinement and opulence with stupid levels of performance.
Topological
Established Member
The Mercedes EQE SUV comes in an AMG version where the speed/performance reduces the battery by 100 miles compared to the normal version. The one linked here is £115,495 with finance at £1225. However, that is based on 48 months with a £20300 deposit and just 10000 miles.
On my company salary sacrifice, the effect on my take-home would be around £1400 per month for 20,000 miles per year over 5 years. Though they do include insurance, services, tyres and a home charger in the deal.
It would be interesting to see comparative 0-60 cars for the "powerful engine" and "status" angles. This is 3.7 seconds for 0-62.
Mercedes-AMG EQE 53 link: Full spec for comparison
I have not looked into BMW since as a child of the 90s, BMW has a stereotype.
On my company salary sacrifice, the effect on my take-home would be around £1400 per month for 20,000 miles per year over 5 years. Though they do include insurance, services, tyres and a home charger in the deal.
It would be interesting to see comparative 0-60 cars for the "powerful engine" and "status" angles. This is 3.7 seconds for 0-62.
Mercedes-AMG EQE 53 link: Full spec for comparison
I have not looked into BMW since as a child of the 90s, BMW has a stereotype.
Apparently the EV verisions have indicators as standard now.
How else do you let people know you're only parking for a couple of minutes?
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Oh so very very ironic - but so frequently seems to be true.
Exactly my problem. You stop to let them out of their space then realise they are indicating both ways. Simpler just to toot your horn as you go past. Those types always park leaving enough room for a bike to pass on the inside (the furthest they ever get from the curb) or double park an empty space.
I doubt if EVs will over come these sort of problems/drivers.
To be fair, the sort of arrogant self-centred person that once favoured a BMW and acted like that seems to have migrated to Audi in my experience.
Certain people feel they must be seen in a certain type of car. That means it isn't all BMWs or all Audis or all Mercedes or all Range Rovers - it's particular models with particular body trims.
In recent months I've been somewhat shocked at just how many BMWs DO indicate, especially on motorways, but I wonder if that's because modern cars give you quite a jolt if you attempt to cross a line without indicating!! Enough to almost make the driver drop their phone!
Certain people feel they must be seen in a certain type of car. That means it isn't all BMWs or all Audis or all Mercedes or all Range Rovers - it's particular models with particular body trims.
In recent months I've been somewhat shocked at just how many BMWs DO indicate, especially on motorways, but I wonder if that's because modern cars give you quite a jolt if you attempt to cross a line without indicating!! Enough to almost make the driver drop their phone!
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Where is the like button.
We have recently got an electric car (Vauxhall Frontera Electric) in a lease for £200 with 12,000 miles.
Previously we were paying £150 a month on petrol, that's how around £25 using a wall box and a little bit of away from home charging (it's worth being aware that nearly all new homes, even those without driveways will have a wall box as standard).
That means that whilst there's a £75 gap, over the 4 year lease that's a maximum of £3,600, add to that the £11,000 end of lease price and it'll be basically the £15,000 cash price another talked about (but with then £125 a month saving going forwards), given the battery had an 8 year guarantee on it that means that any other would be able to keep it for that long.
That's before you consider that as it's a new car and so it includes breakdown cover for a few years and doesn't need a MOT and has a lower maintenance requirement (including not needing a new cam belt every 5 years, which some cars need) and so chances are the costs would be lower.
Having previously brought a car for sub £15,000 and subsequently finding out it wasn't as good a car as we'd hoped, getting our EV already feels like the best option.
Yes it's range is limited (186 miles) however even for our semi regular 240 mile trip that's only one stop of about 28 minutes (maybe 2 totalling 40 minutes), but personal circumstance have recently changed so a stop is more essential than it used to be anyway.
Is also worth noting that the number of chargers had increased a lot in the last few years and there's more being built all the time (including a new Instavolt charging site on the A303 which used to be a petrol station which is due to open in the next 12 months)
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Several thread-contributors have mentioned salary sacrifice schemes, to fund your EV(s). So, for illustrative purposes -
Let's say your finance option gives you somewhere between 12,000 and 15,000 miles usage per year (two previous roles necessitated me driving 12,000 to 26,000 miles per year, as I worked between various UK offices).
Now let's add you then are made redundant. You need to buy out the finance agreement, or give your EV back.
Hypothesising? During the past three years, I've been made redundant once - my wife was made redundant twice - and two EV-leasing work colleagues (different companies), had to give back their EVs (thus they'd paid money for nothing) because the Stat' Redundancy was nowhere near enough to "buy out" their EV's finance agreement.
Sometimes, ICE ownership is a necessity, not a choice.
Let's say your finance option gives you somewhere between 12,000 and 15,000 miles usage per year (two previous roles necessitated me driving 12,000 to 26,000 miles per year, as I worked between various UK offices).
Now let's add you then are made redundant. You need to buy out the finance agreement, or give your EV back.
Hypothesising? During the past three years, I've been made redundant once - my wife was made redundant twice - and two EV-leasing work colleagues (different companies), had to give back their EVs (thus they'd paid money for nothing) because the Stat' Redundancy was nowhere near enough to "buy out" their EV's finance agreement.
Sometimes, ICE ownership is a necessity, not a choice.
What a curious conclusion!
Cars need to be paid for - one way or another. Be that Sal Sac, or PCP, or bank loan, or buy outright, or however.
Losing a job (for whatever reason) can be emotionally traumatic and financially ruinous. So someone with an EV Sal Sac car would have to return it, but someone with a huge ICE PCP payment may well have to surrender their car too.
For what it's worth, Sal Sac isn't always the best proposition. A new Tesla Model 3 Standard (322 miles range) is currently £236 a month direct from Tesla on 0% with a £10k deposit. I can't get near that in Sal Sac, even if I include insurance, which is group 32 for the Standard (down from group 50 for the Premium, or whatever they're calling it this week.) As @The Ham points out above, once you factor in the fuel savings, it can become a no-brainer.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I think that's a gross generalisation
Not everyone who drives BMWs is arrogant and self centred. Yes they do attract that sort but so does any German car
Thees lots of chat in this thread about public chargers. I've used them three times in two years of having an EV. They're typically 5-10 times per KW/h than I pay at home and their use destroys the value proposition.
I know not everyone can charge at home, but this will change as solutions develop and I hope public charging gets cheaper, but for that to happen the wholesale cost of electricity in "rip off Britain" needs to drop, along with the removal of the stupid linkage to the price of gas
I know not everyone can charge at home, but this will change as solutions develop and I hope public charging gets cheaper, but for that to happen the wholesale cost of electricity in "rip off Britain" needs to drop, along with the removal of the stupid linkage to the price of gas
Certainly where I live the development was built 40 years ago with separate parking and there is a conspicuous absence of EVs.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
All my thread posts have focused on cash purchasing an EV. All my cars of nigh-40 years, I bought for cash. I bought what I could afford. I have no intenton of getting into any cycle of finance products.
My post was primarily pointing out that the transition from two already-owned-outright ICEs, to buying two EV outright (D- and C-segment, not urban runabouts) is cost-prohibitive for many of us, even if we would like to transition.
Last edited:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Buy used. Buying any new car for cash is an exercise in setting fire to £50 notes.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
Abdolutely. Post 6156 demonstrated that 'used' cost-growth far outstripped wage growth (redundancies notwithstanding) over these past 8 years.
Topological
Established Member
If I was buying then I would 100% buy used. I am late to driving (lived in central Manchester and really did not have any use for a car), but both the cars I bought were dealer used. Lost £6000 in one year after putting 25000 miles on a 2019 Audi Q2 and now looks like about £10000 on a 2020 Mercedes GLC that will have done 40000 miles in 2 years. Those costs per month are definitely workable, but the cost of fuel is much higher than we pay on the electric that we got new last summer. It does not take that long before the finance numbers make sense even against the used car losses.
(I do feel like my mileage numbers are high compared to all the quoted finance deals)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
All cars have gone up in price, yes, the used price driven by the new price. But the advantage of the used market is that you can choose your price point so you can afford it (unless you can't afford any car, but that's only a smallish number of people. 5 years ago that wasn't true of EVs as the used market wasn't well seeded, but it is now so it now applies to any car.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Those are very high mileages, average is about 10-13K pa. If you put those in on a PCP the deals you will get are very poor. You may be better leasing for those mileages but of course you own nothing at the end.
The only real downside of cash for used cars (if you have it) is that you are tying it up and you could do something else with it e.g. invest. And I'm yet to find a better deal on any finance at all (bar 0% deals) better than I can get on a personal loan, albeit with higher monthly payments as you are paying the full capital, and the car is then also a financial backup as you can sell it at any point but keep the loan going.