thejuggler
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Ticket office merely need to state they don't sell split tickets, direct tickets only. Split ticket are self serve only using apps.
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Split ticketing - a blessing or a curse?
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They can sell split tickets if they're specifically requested. They can't search for the fares loopholes though.
Haywain
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Buy it on Trainline.
redreni
Established Member
That would be a great response if they want to hasten their own demise.
"It said £19.50 on Trainline and I've only got this £20 note"
Tbh I would be much more interested in campaigning for keeping ticket offices open if they were allowed to sell splits. That they are prohibited means that I am actually reluctant to suggest that someone buy their ticket from one even if that would be most suitable for them since they are likely to be paying more than necessary. Hopefully under GBR ticket offices will be allowed to sell splits officially?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Perhaps the govt can take a lesson from the anger shown towards recent proposals to close ticket offices and make removing the ban on splits a positive publicity step.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Perhaps the govt can take a lesson from the anger shown towards recent proposals to close ticket offices and make removing the ban on splits a positive publicity step.
“Can you tell me where they split the fare?” Plus advising them that splitting affects rights, but that if they really want a split, they can do it.
xotGD
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So the passenger at the ticket office has to say the magic word (split) if they want to be offered the cheapest ticket combination.
Maybe there should be a notice to that effect?
Maybe there should be a notice to that effect?
That would also not be Impartial Retailing. The ticket office will only sell the fares asked of it. You cannot say "sell me split tickets" and ask them to work it out. You can only say you want an Off Peak Day Single to X and an Anytime Day Single from X to Y and they are then bound to sell it.
Or maybe ‘Mornington Crescent’? Another silly game with completely unfathomable rules.
Haywain
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"Well, unless you can tell me exactly what Trainline are selling for that price, I can't help you."
Allowed to sell them or obliged to sell them?
Which system are they going to use to determine where to split? How long should they take to find the best split they can? What happens if the customer later finds there was a better split available that the ticket office couldn't/didn't find?
Should it be limited to a single split, or should they look for multiple splits? Should they consider mixing Advance tickets with walk-up tickets? Should they consider rover tickets and ranger tickets? And while they've been thinking about all that, you've missed your train.
Allowed. None of those are the reason they aren't currently allowed to, it's impartiality rules from an age when ToCs were supposed to be competing.
I don't think people going to the ticket office would be expecting the best possible split, but then again neither are people using Trainline getting the best possible one. Whatever the ticket office clerk happens to know is fine or the ticket office operator can add split functionality to their TIS if they want and ticket offices can just be another retailer to compare with the likes of trainsplit.
My problem is that ticket office staff trying to be helpful is currently prohibited. I'd like to be able to tell someone that would prefer to buy from a human "just go down to the ticket office and have a chat" and that not be guaranteed* to stop them getting a split.
*Yes I know many tickets current flout the rules but that doesn't mean they shouldn't change
Haywain
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So you'd be happy to get different fares from different members of staff?
If you want to be sure of paying exactly the through fare, buy from a TVM or online. Imo the point of buying from a ticket office is to have someone helpfully explain what your options are.
Are ticket offices allowed to suggest getting a WM Any train Z1-5 instead of a Coventry to Wolverhampton return? I can guarantee they won't all suggest that.
Are ticket offices allowed to suggest getting a WM Any train Z1-5 instead of a Coventry to Wolverhampton return? I can guarantee they won't all suggest that.
Kite159
Veteran Member
The biggest issue I've found with split tickets when purchased online via the Trainline is passengers don't always read they need to be on a train which calls at the station they are splitting at. They will just click accept without reading the warning.
All they see is the cheaper price for taking the stopping service from A to D (with tickets split at B & C), but then will board the fast service which runs nonstop to D (and hence their choice of tickets are not valid).
All they see is the cheaper price for taking the stopping service from A to D (with tickets split at B & C), but then will board the fast service which runs nonstop to D (and hence their choice of tickets are not valid).
"Can I have a Day Return to X please?"
There's a day rover available for that whole journey which is currently £1.20 cheaper than that day return, with the bonus of bus travel thrown in. Why should I not offer that?
Likewise if someone is travelling to a city that has some kind of zonal rover available (Travelcards, Wayfarers, Saveaways etc.) is it wrong to suggest that they might benefit from using a combination of tickets that might allow them to use local transport around their destination? Plusbus for that matter.
I think you've got unrealistic expectations.
So if you get a knowledgable ticket office clerk you're likely to be offered a good deal. Get a rookie and you'll likely end up paying more. I'm sorry but that simply isn't going to work in the real world. A ticket office will sell you the most appropriate ticket for your journey, if you want anything other than that then a ticket office will sell it to you but you must do the research yourself. I don't see anything wrong with that approach.
As far as I'm aware there's nothing stopping an independent retailer setting up a physical shop somewhere and offering to sell combinations of tickets to personal callers. This would effectively be a travel agency service. I cannot see any retailer doing that because there's no way the financials will add up.
The difference in validity between a zonal ticket or rover and a standard return ticket is easier to explain than split ticketing.
I'm not sure guards and booking clerks could be expected to explain split tickets in a customer-friendly way...
xotGD
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So members of the public are required to know more about the nuances of the ticketing system than the people who get paid to sell tickets.
Wonderful.
With the shift to online retail, Ticket Office training is no longer seen as a priority at several TOCs. When I started, I had a full three weeks of classroom training followed by a week shadowing a more experienced member of staff before I did a solo shift. New starters are lucky if they get more than two classroom days before being put on a window.
By the end of my training, I could sell SailRail, Excesses, Sleepers, Bus Links, Advances and calculate Season Ticket Changeovers. Oh...And we were still using APTIS at the time, so had to be able to find our way round a fares manual and printed timetable and do reservations separately.
Now it seems that anything more complex than a ticket to London is too difficult for some members of staff, and that's a problem because one of the current generation of Ticket Office machines is almost like going back to APTIS, as fares enquiries and timetable enquiries are completely separate unless you go into Journey Planning mode. So if you enter a journey, the system in question will come back with all the possible walk-up fares, even if they're not valid at that time. Similarly, it doesn't automatically apply Railcard mnimum fares unless the TOC has configured it to do so.
Given that, it's not surprising that there are members of the public who know more about the fares system than some Ticket Office staff.
I don't see why not. I expect that sometimes the clerk is going to be less helpful than other times. I'm not suggesting that ticket offices should be required to sell splits, only that the ban is lifted (since supposedly the ban is not to ensure fairness between customers but between ToCs). Of course if the customer requests a combination of tickets the ticket office should sell it.
What the hell does "appropriate" mean? I don't think most people know what ticket they want but luckily there is a person there that can explain the different options to them. Forcing ticket offices to only sell through fares that most people can easily get from the TVM around the corner even when they want to be more helpful seems to remove most of the purpose of having a human sell the tickets.
Exactly. If ticket office staff want to be helpful and suggest a combination of tickets that might be suitable for the customer's journey they shouldn't be forbidden from doing so just because it was judged to be unfair to "competing" ToCs when the TSA was agreed.
redreni
Established Member
Lee Mack ticket office sketch. (YouTube link)
I ended up learning as much as I now know about railway ticketing not so much because of an interest in trains and railways, but more because I couldn't accept not knowing by how much I was overpaying for train travel by dint of not being able to work out the most economic fare for any particular journey I wanted or needed to make.
Turns out the time taken to learn the rules and the ways to save money probably wasn't worth it for the cash savings themselves, but when you take into account the people I've met and the sheer joy I get from knowing how to avoid some of the worst value fares, easily worth it.
I do get that many people do not want to study for an advanced degree in rail fares and also don't want to be ripped off. That requires an increase in subsidy and probably a significant increase in system capacity if you're going to get rid of the poor value fares that (by design, in many cases) discourage people from travelling by train.
There is no obvious, easy way to get rid of splits. Just banning them outright (e.g. saying you have to get off the train, exit the station and end your journey at the end of each ticket's validity, otherwise your ticket isn't valid) would be a terribly retrograde step to take, especially as a measure taken in isolation, without also restructuring and significantly reducing fares overall.
As such, I'm a bit confused about what this thread is all about? What course of action is being proposed, here?
Neither does Trainline. Or at least there's no way for Trainline to confirm understanding.
I've had no issues in the past, either telling them "make sure that your train back calls at X, the ones to Y all will but not all of the ones to Z do, if it's the 17:50 train you'll definitely be fine." or "as you're travelling back today, it's much cheaper if I issue seperate tickets, one to Manchester and then another to Leeds. You must pass through Manchester on your way back but that won't be an issue because it's the only sensible route anyway".
Which brings up another example. Customer says "can I have a day return to X please?". Now there are no day returns for that journey, only period ones. Now a circumstance where offering a split is officially permitted is when no through ticket exists. If the passenger has specifically asked for a day return, one could conceivably argue that the through ticket they want doesn't exist and offer them a split of day returns if it's cheaper than a period one.
Clearly the system is too complex. Unfortunately simplifying it without screwing over the passengers would be difficult to get past the very conservative Treasury - they don't like the slightest bit of uncertainty.
Consider a customer travelling from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads. They go to the ticket office at Paddington and ask for a return to Temple Meads.
A really helpful clerk serves me a identifies a combination of tickets splitting at Didcot Parkway and Chippenham. I leave happy thinking that was really good service.
The next week I make the same journey. This time I'm served by a different clerk who I've not seen before. They sell me a through ticket from Paddington to Temple Meads. I query this saying it was much cheaper last week and ask if I can be sold what I bought last week. The clerk doesn't know the splits and I'm not an expert in railway ticketing and can't remember exactly what was sold to me last week. I look on my banking app and can see that it was £20 less than what I'm being asked to pay. I'm not happy....
The following week I make the journey again and I can see the clerk who served me the first time is working. I let other customers go ahead of me to be served by other clerks as I only want to be served by the person who I know will get me a cheap price. I tell them what happened last week and have a bit of a moan and they sell me the split tickets for my journey. At Bristol my meeting over runs and I take a different train back that goes via Bristol Parkway and doesn't call at Didcot. The train manager comes round to check tickets and insists my ticket isn't valid and insists I buy a new ticket from Bristol Parkway to Paddington. All I was given when I bought the tickets was the tickets, there was nothing saying that my trains had to call at Didcot and Chippenham. I can't remember if the clerk mentioned anything or not about the trains having to call somewhere - I can't remember.
Do you see the sort of problems that might happen....
It means the correct toicket for the journey you intend to make. For example, establishing the time of day you intend to travel and when you intend to return.
I don't see how any of this is restricted to ticket office sales. The exact same problems can and do happen with online retailers but we accept it there.
I don't think there's any way to protect people against not listening to clear advice. As long as you were told then this is exactly the same situation as someone buying those splits off of trainline and ignoring the warning there.
If you use different retailers, yes. If you use the same one it's much less likely.
When you buy online you get an itinerary which will be sent to you by email and you agree to the terms and conditions. In reality very few will bother to read them but they are there. That doesn't really happen at ticket offices and if you tried to say it could you'd be left with 'the man in the ticket office said...' argument.
Agreeing to terms and conditions is irrelevant, you are bound by the NRCoT regardless of how you purchase your ticket. I appreciate that having a written confirmation of the limitations of the tickets you were sold is better in the event of a dispute than relying on accounts of the exchange at the ticket office. This is fundamentally a problem with any in person contract though.
Tbh my problem with this is that the impartial ticketing rules were (as I understand it) introduced on the basis of fairness between ToCs. Their continued existence is based on post hoc arguments around possible customer confusion that is maybe slightly more likely than online but realistically is not a fundmentally different problem. In fact in person ticketing has more opportunities to ensure the customer understands the nuance. If the customer doesn't listen then I think they are fairly likely to have been caught out by the same problem after buying on trainline (and it seems likely they'd switch to doing that over buying at a ticket office once a friend showed them the cheaper online tickets).
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