The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[ainsworth74]

And, of course, those on the ground are now having to scramble to deliver the elections on time having lost months of preparation time due to the uncertainty...

A group that represents electoral officials in the UK said the teams who help to run elections had lost months of preparation time and would struggle to be ready.

Local elections in Norfolk, Suffolk, Blackburn, Lincoln, Thurrock and two dozen more parts of England, will now take place on 7 May.

Some organisers said they were still preparing anyway, aware there was a legal challenge to the government's decision to postpone votes in their areas, which was due to be heard in the High Court on Thursday.

The Association of Electoral Administrators (AEA), which provides training for electoral officials in the UK, said it was "extremely disappointed" that months of "essential planning time" had been lost.

On Monday, the AEA's deputy chief executive Laura Lock said returning officers, electoral registration officers, and electoral administration teams would be affected.

"These teams now face an uphill struggle to catch up to where they should be," she said.

"They have paused planning to avoid unnecessary cost, but this means they are now playing catch-up."

In the run-up to elections, tasks for local councils include printing ballot papers, booking polling station venues and recruiting additional staff.

In a statement on Tuesday, Lock said that the affected areas had kept their polling station and count venue bookings "on hold" as a precaution, in case the postponements did not go ahead.

"This sensible approach means there is less work to do than might otherwise have been necessary," she added.

She also said the main print suppliers for election stationery and ballot papers had "indicated they feel confident about stepping up production to meet increased demand".

"So, all round, the sector as a whole is pulling together and rapidly getting back up to speed to administer these elections."

Councils face 'uphill struggle' after elections delay U-turn

Thirty councils across England now have to organise local polls after the government abandoned plans to delay.

www.bbc.co.uk

What an absolute farce but just typical of this Government. Has a pretty reasonable idea (we shouldn't hold elections for seats that will be abolished 18 months later anyway), does a goddamn awful job of communicating it's idea, ends up being attacked from all sides as a consequence, then u-turns looking idiotic and causing everyone who was expecting one thing to have to scramble to deal with the new reality.

See also Winter Fuel, PIP benefit changes, and half a hundred other things.

 

[Broucek]

.... u-turns looking idiotic and causing everyone who was expecting one thing to have to scramble to deal with the new reality

See also Winter Fuel, PIP benefit changes, and half a hundred other things.

To be fair, Sir Keir didn't give back his free suits or glasses, so they've not u-turned on absolutely everything

 

[greatkingrat]

Part of the problem is the government gave councils a choice of whether to postpone or not. Apart from being an obvious conflict of interest (turkeys voting for Christmas), it makes no sense to try and argue that there should be no elections in council A while council B is going ahead as normal, despite them both being affected by potential reorganisation.

 

[JamesT]

Part of the problem is the government gave councils a choice of whether to postpone or not. Apart from being an obvious conflict of interest (turkeys voting for Christmas), it makes no sense to try and argue that there should be no elections in council A while council B is going ahead as normal, despite them both being affected by potential reorganisation.

Isn't the difference that some councils are further forward in their proposals than others? I believe that for some councils the future organisation has been decided and elections for the new bodies scheduled for next year. Whereas some are still doing consultations on the future layout.

 

[Falcon1200]

Has a pretty reasonable idea (we shouldn't hold elections for seats that will be abolished 18 months later anyway),

Were the the upcoming council elections cancelled in all those being abolished, or just in certain ones?

If only there was someone high up in Government with knowledge and experience of legal stuff, this debacle might have been avoided.

 

[m0ffy]

Were the the upcoming council elections cancelled in all those being abolished, or just in certain ones?

If only there was someone high up in Government with knowledge and experience of legal stuff, this debacle might have been avoided.

Just councils that chose to postpone elections - the decision was left to individual councils.

 

[HSTEd]

Yet more shambolic politics.

The key point was a sensible one: there is no point spending millions of pounds on running elections for local councils which will be abolished within the next 18 months. There is absolutely no point in electing a set of dead ducks.

Given that the argument on the future structures of several local government areas has still not been settled, I don't think the government's official line that the councils will soon be abolished is really credible.

Several councils were having their elections called off for a second time, which means even with the Government's extremely optimistic timeframe, the councillors would have had time to serve close to a full term if elected last year.

Perhaps I am too cynical, but given that the local government reorganisation was announced in December 2024, about the time Labour were nosediving in the polls, I have to question the motives for this entire rushed reorganisation programme. I wonder if this new legal advice that convinced the government to abandon its attempt to postpone/cancel the elections will be released/leak.

 

[nw1]

Not long term, Labour need a new leader now. Starmer is dead in the water, he's done that many u-turns now he ought to have reversing lights and audible warnings fitted to him. This isn't just a bloody nose for Labour, they've walked down the dark alleyway, got jumped and had got the you-know-what kicked out of them.

It absolutely pains me to say this, but this is a massive win for Farage and he will get a lot of milage out of it. He'll be able to sell himself as the "the saviour of democracy", and his supporters will slavishly lap this up, even though as others have pointed out some of these elections are almost pointless with the upcoming changes proposed. But that won't matter, it's the political equivalent of a 30 yard screamer into the top corner for Farage, even though Labour's defence and goalkeeper were looking the other way and made little attempt to block it. So I fully expect some more momentum for Reform in the upcoming elections, which will further embolden Farage to stir up more malcontent and propose even more "radical" ideas that he might want to enact should Reform win the next General Election.

It's going to be a lot tighter at the next GE if both main parties continue with their utterly useless leaderships, Reform might actually be in with a serious chance. So Labour have no choice, get moving today on getting Starmer to stand down, or start proceedings to remove him. There is no more time to waste.

Except Reform are a Trumpist party and surely no-one in their right mind would vote for them, unless they are MAGA supporters.

Are people so stupid to not see what's going on in the USA? Do they not see that voting that lot in would make the UK like Trump's America? And how anyone can like Farage I don't know.

You would have to be either profoundly ignorant or a bad person to vote Reform, IMO. If people are fed up of Labour I suspect it might swing back to the Tories, which wouldn't be good either, though significantly less bad. To be quite honest what we need right now is a strong left-wing government interested in protecting people's financial security and protecting jobs. Reform are a combination of social ultraconservatives and economic neoliberals - good for no-one except the rich and the bigoted. Does anyone think Farage will save jobs or make people more secure in their finances? You would have to be mad to think that.

 

[jfollows]

Plenty of people will vote for Reform; not you and not me I know, but they’re going to promise the earth and deliver nothing. Did anyone who voted for Trump in 2016 not notice he didn’t deliver on most of his promises? No. But they’ve voted for him again and again.
You only need to look at the acrimonious disaster of most Reform councils after the last local elections to draw a conclusion, but many voters don’t care, don’t know or don’t want to know.

My local council is useless, Independent/Labour coalition, replacing an equally useless Conservative one. So who should I vote for? The least worst? The latest incompetents? Or just someone who promises the earth and a pox on all their houses? I won’t, but many will.

 

[nw1]

Plenty of people will vote for Reform; not you and not me I know, but they’re going to promise the earth and deliver nothing. Did anyone who voted for Trump in 2016 not notice he didn’t deliver on most of his promises? No. But they’ve voted for him again and again.
You only need to look at the acrimonious disaster of most Reform councils after the last local elections to draw a conclusion, but many voters don’t care.

You'd think people would learn from Trump though. Or learn from these disastrous Reform councils. Perhaps if the councils continue to do badly their reputation will suffer sufficiently in time for 2029.

In the USA, Trump is losing popularity. I would be very surprised if all the negative coverage Trump is getting will not have a significant negative impact on hard-right populist parties in Europe, including the UK.

I do note a swing towards the Tories of late and Reform dipping in popularity and I do wonder whether the Tories could be in with a chance of winning. As I said, not good either, I don't think they will be sensitive enough to people in financial hardship, particularly with the rather right-wing Badenoch, but at least we've had (much) experience of Tory government so it's a known quantity.

If I had to guess the GE outcome I'm not sure. Perhaps Tories getting the top share of the vote, but not enough for a majority. Lib Dems and Greens doing fairly well, too. Can see it being very inconclusive.

 

[jfollows]

You'd think people would learn from Trump though. Or learn from these disastrous Reform councils. Perhaps if the councils continue to do badly their reputation will suffer sufficiently in time for 2029.

You’d think, but my conclusion comes back to your earlier post - people are stupid. They’re allowed to be.

 

[nw1]

My local council is useless, Independent/Labour coalition, replacing an equally useless Conservative one. So who should I vote for? The least worst? The latest incompetents? Or just someone who promises the earth and a pox on all their houses? I won’t, but many will.

The least worst, I would think.

For me it's easy because my ward councillors are Lib Dem and I am in a Tory constituency with the Lib Dems 2nd, so the choice is obvious in both cases (Lib Dem).

But I would grit my teeth and vote Labour if I had to. I'm not overly impressed by Starmer but - at least he's not a Trump, a Le Pen, a Weidel, an Orban, a Meloni or a Milei.

To be honest my politics are moving more leftward if anything, in response to the world as it is today. If a left-wing party had a realistic chance of winning, I'd vote for them. There must be room on the political scene for a party to the left of Labour (I mean a competent one, not Your Party which seems to be going nowhere).

 

[HSTEd]

To be honest my politics are moving more leftward if anything, in response to the world as it is today. If a left-wing party had a realistic chance of winning, I'd vote for them. There must be room on the political scene for a party to the left of Labour (I mean a competent one, not Your Party which seems to be going nowhere).

The problem is voting for Labour out of fear just ensures such a party can never form.
It is only the ultra-factionalism and blundering of Starmer and McSweeney that is threatening to allow one to be created (in the form of the Greens).

For a new left party to become significant Labour has to lose and lose very badly, especially in the absence of electoral reform (which is why the leadership of the Labour party will never permit such reform).

 

[jfollows]

To be honest my politics are moving more leftward if anything, in response to the world as it is today. If a left-wing party had a realistic chance of winning, I'd vote for them. There must be room on the political scene for a party to the left of Labour (I mean a competent one, not Your Party which seems to be going nowhere).

I think I’ve said similar before, I was Conservative 1980-1997, Lib Dem 1997-2019 and Labour 2019-2024. Next election, I’m not sure. Probably Lib Dem again I guess. Not Green and never Reform.
I don’t like being told I get more right-wing with age! Maybe true in general of course.

 

[Bantamzen]

Except Reform are a Trumpist party and surely no-one in their right mind would vote for them, unless they are MAGA supporters.

Are people so stupid to not see what's going on in the USA? Do they not see that voting that lot in would make the UK like Trump's America? And how anyone can like Farage I don't know.

You would have to be either profoundly ignorant or a bad person to vote Reform, IMO. If people are fed up of Labour I suspect it might swing back to the Tories, which wouldn't be good either, though significantly less bad. To be quite honest what we need right now is a strong left-wing government interested in protecting people's financial security and protecting jobs. Reform are a combination of social ultraconservatives and economic neoliberals - good for no-one except the rich and the bigoted. Does anyone think Farage will save jobs or make people more secure in their finances? You would have to be mad to think that.

The Democrats thought exactly the same for most of 2024. There's no way Trump can win, in fact they were so confident that they stopped campaigning on the issues and took to mocking Trump. And look how that worked out for them! Worse still, they still haven't recovered and are just drifting towards the Midterms.

The problem isn't that people are stupid enough to vote Reform, it is that the major parties are too stupid to recognise that they have been disengaging with the public for years. Both the Conservative and Labour have been way too arrogant, and way too dismissive or ordinary people's concerns instead pursuing causes that most in this country couldn't give a stuff about. Then along come Reform and tell everyone that they will listen, they will do "something", even if they don't really specify what that is. But they give the impression that they give a stuff when the rest don't, and that's why they have stormed to the top of the polling intention surveys. Because people are sending a message.

If Labour want to push Reform back, they need to stop playing with their hobby horse policies and start dealing with the basics. And they need to start with losing the loser at the top, because he isn't exactly winning people over.

 

[nw1]

The Democrats thought exactly the same for most of 2024. There's no way Trump can win, in fact they were so confident that they stopped campaigning on the issues and took to mocking Trump. And look how that worked out for them! Worse still, they still haven't recovered and are just drifting towards the Midterms.

The problem isn't that people are stupid enough to vote Reform, it is that the major parties are too stupid to recognise that they have been disengaging with the public for years. Both the Conservative and Labour have been way too arrogant, and way too dismissive or ordinary people's concerns instead pursuing causes that most in this country couldn't give a stuff about. Then along come Reform and tell everyone that they will listen, they will do "something", even if they don't really specify what that is. But they give the impression that they give a stuff when the rest don't, and that's why they have stormed to the top of the polling intention surveys. Because people are sending a message.

If Labour want to push Reform back, they need to stop playing with their hobby horse policies and start dealing with the basics. And they need to start with losing the loser at the top, because he isn't exactly winning people over.

I think the thing is to stop Reform by any means possible. I don't even especially want Labour to win next time as such, essentially it's anyone but Reform (and ideally not the Tories, but I'll live with them if they keep Reform out).

I see what you're saying but I would say the Dems are likely to win the midterms by default just because Trump really is so unpopular now. The killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti are simply beyond the pale and Trump II has thus far been far worse than Trump I. You can almost excuse people voting for Trump in 2024 because Trump I was perhaps not so ridiculously bad, but now? Republicans who disown Trump may do well, I admit that - and if the Republicans want to win the midterms, disowning Trump is the strategy they have to adopt. Trump is a political liability now for the GOP.

Also I do note that recent opinion polls do show Reform steadily declining with the Tories on the up, and Labour declining with the Greens on the up. This seems to me the direction of travel: in forthcoming elections, both the Tories and the Greens will do better than of late, while Reform and Labour will do worse. The Tories can pitch themselves as the right-wing party with relatively sensible economic policies, and that will appeal to a lot of traditional right-wingers.

I also suspect that, come the GE, a lot of us will tactically vote to keep Reform out. For some constituencies, I can even see left-wing or liberal voters casting their vote for Badenoch's Tories just to keep them out. I think people underestimate the sheer feeling against Reform from those of us who are not amongst the 25-30% that seem to like them. People will want to stop them by any means possible, not only because of their illiberal hard-right policies, but because many of us believe they are utterly incompetent economically and are genuinely frightened of the economic consequences for the country.

I do think right-wing populism will have had its day in the next few years as people increasingly "find it out" for doing absolutely nothing to help their lot.

 

[Bevan Price]

After Labour's big election win in 2024, it was almost inevitable that the largely right wing media would do everything in their power to try and discredit Labour - and some of Labour's actions have made that a lot easier.

So what next ?
Back to the Tories after the mess they made in 2010/2024 ? I hope not.
Reform - well personally I wouldn't trust anything they say.
Greens ? A bit unrealistic; for example we are likely to need some nuclear power for many years, but they would probably try to get rid of it.
Far left parties ? Corbyn (2019) & Foot (1983) showed that they can never win UK general elections.
Lib Dems? I fear they are never likely to win enough seats to win a general election.
To me, middle of the road Labour seems the least of several evils, despite their mistakes. Given time, I think at present, they are the only party to give hope of improving life for the majority, even though things may get a little worse before they start to get better...
The 2029 election result - currently anyone's guess........

 

[HSTEd]

Greens ? A bit unrealistic; for example we are likely to need some nuclear power for many years, but they would probably try to get rid of it.

The nuclear power point is essentially moot.
By the next general election pretty much all the capacity in the fleet will be gone, and Hinkley Point C is not going to be finished.

It won't be a significant election issue.

 

[ChrisC]

I think I’ve said similar before, I was Conservative 1980-1997, Lib Dem 1997-2019 and Labour 2019-2024. Next election, I’m not sure. Probably Lib Dem again I guess. Not Green and never Reform.
I don’t like being told I get more right-wing with age! Maybe true in general of course.

I’ve been very much the same, having voted Conservative from the General Election in 1979, but continued to vote Conservative a little bit longer. It’s only the last two General Elections in 2019 and 2024 when I have switched to voting Lib Dem. I’ve always been a fairly moderate centre right conservative and did not agree with Brexit. I switched to Lib Dem because I could not vote for Boris and the Conservatives as they became more right wing. I’ve remained a Conservative voter in all local elections and in the local county council election last year in my council ward the Conservative candidate beat Reform by just one vote! Unfortunately he’s in a minority and Reform now control Nottinghamshire County Council.

I’d like to think that the Conservatives could move back more towards the centre, but with Badenoch as leader I can’t see that happening. As things currently stand where I live Reform are quite likely to win the seat. Voting Conservative is probably the only chance of keeping Reform out here as the Lib Dems are so weak here. I find the thought of us ending up with a Reform government quite frightening, but at the same time I feel very much the same about the Greens.

I‘ve never voted Labour, but after the mess that the Conservatives have made in recent years, I even thought it could be a refreshing change. I know that Labour have been a big disappointment to many but what I don‘t fully understand is why Keir Starmer so quickly became so unpopular. It isn‘t just dissatisfaction and dislike but absolute hate that I’m seeing from people in traditional working class ex mining areas close to here. Is this hate for Keir Starmer and the rise in Reform in traditional old Labour areas being fuelled by the right wing press and social media?

 

[brad465]

I‘ve never voted Labour, but after the mess that the Conservatives have made in recent years, I even thought it could be a refreshing change. I know that Labour have been a big disappointment to many but what I don‘t fully under is why Keir Starmer so quickly became so unpopular. It isn‘t just dissatisfaction and dislike but absolute hate that I’m seeing from people in traditional working class ex mining areas close to here. Is this hate for Keir Starmer and the rise in Reform in traditional old Labour areas being fuelled by the right wing press and social media?

I've wondered the same; he is rather boring and bland, which is not a recipe for extreme popularity or unpopularity. I think it is a combination of the social media landscape now as you allude to, plus a general impatience among the population to see positive action. Even a really competent person could not deliver results on the scale this country requires in a year or two. Social media in particular seems to make a mountain out of a molehill for several relatively minor things. The Winter Fuel Allowance debacle for example, while entirely preventable and poorly handled by the government, seems to have been made a scandal comparable to Truss's mini budget (as well as making several folk calling for welfare cuts complete hypocrites, including opposition MPs).

 

[HSTEd]

I‘ve never voted Labour, but after the mess that the Conservatives have made in recent years, I even thought it could be a refreshing change. I know that Labour have been a big disappointment to many but what I don‘t fully under is why Keir Starmer so quickly became so unpopular. It isn‘t just dissatisfaction and dislike but absolute hate that I’m seeing from people in traditional working class ex mining areas close to here. Is this hate for Keir Starmer and the rise in Reform in traditional old Labour areas being fuelled by the right wing press and social media?

He stood on a platform of being "Mr Rules" and all that, spending years railing against the Government for 'corruption' and 'sleaze', and then started acting just as sleazy as numerous governments before him.
See the dodgy gifts saga, the Sue Grey mess, the Tulip Siddiq scandal, the Louise Haigh scandal, the Angela Rayner scandal (which at least came out of 'nowhere') and then all the policies appearing that definitely weren't in his manifesto or even in the spirit of it ('Digital' ID Cards, Winter Fuel Payment, attempts to slash disability benefits to name a few).

Plus the general incompetence his government has repeatedly demonstrated over policies that have to be withdrawn in a panic after squandering political capital defending the indefensible.


The obvious failures of policy and policy choices which are counter to his stated objectives etc etc etc.
And within the party he has been operating cold blooded hyperfactionalism, including appointing dodgy (or outright rotten) Blairite has beens like Mandelson and Jonathan Powell. Plus his repeated crackdowns on dissent and expulsions.

 

[Yew]

And within the party he has been operating cold blooded hyperfactionalism, including appointing dodgy (or outright rotten) Blairite has beens like Mandelson and Jonathan Powell. Plus his repeated crackdowns on dissent and expulsions.

Indeed, for all his incompetence as prime minister, he does seem to have a good grip on the party machinery to ensure compliance. I understand that the slightly entertaining term used by the Labour-Left is to refer to his minions as "Starmtroopers".

 

[martin butler]

Yes some people will believe the spin, and wall to wall social media, and vote Reform, in the belief that somehow, Farage will be on their side, that somehow all their perceived problems will be sorted, that new homes will appear out of the mist, that every unwanted immigrant will be put on busses and shipped out,

The mirage will fade and reality will reappear, as Reform s local councilors will be shown to be at best inept, possibly in some cases corrupt, going on how many seem to have more than a few skeletons rattling away in their closets, the spell will be broken, by the time 2029 comes round,

Hopefully by then, much of the far rights appeal will have burnt out, Trump will be gone, Putin hopefully will have been replaced, and the damage done should start to be healed, and the media, held to account.

Labour needs to sort out what they stand for, and start to deal with the real issues, community, Homes, schools, the NHS, the biased media and truth.

 

[nw1]

I‘ve never voted Labour, but after the mess that the Conservatives have made in recent years, I even thought it could be a refreshing change. I know that Labour have been a big disappointment to many but what I don‘t fully understand is why Keir Starmer so quickly became so unpopular. It isn‘t just dissatisfaction and dislike but absolute hate that I’m seeing from people in traditional working class ex mining areas close to here. Is this hate for Keir Starmer and the rise in Reform in traditional old Labour areas being fuelled by the right wing press and social media?

I completely agree.

I am no particular fan of Starmer myself especially due to the control-freakery at times (keeping Andy Burnham out), the cozying up to Trump, and the winter fuel issue, but in the scheme of things, is he really as bad as all that compared to say Boris or Truss? I'm not a Conservative but I would also consider him no worse than Sunak. The Cameron/Osborne government (I know you may disagree) also impacted on many people's lives negatively yet they didn't get the same hate as Starmer.

It seems to be disproportional to what he has done. You didn't get the same hate for Boris, who did far worse: he blatantiy violated his own lockdown rules and drove through the (IMO) irrational, xenophobia-driven, hard-right flat-earthery that was Brexit. I'm sure that he's considered worse than even Truss, which is frankly absurd. I think you're right, it's partly the right wing press (that said, people who buy the Mail, Express etc are converts to the hard-right cause already) but more dangerously, social media. Shouting, ranting far-right nobodies on TikTok convincing people Starmer is the spawn of Satan.

As for what happens next, I have no idea. If Labour continue to poll poorly and Reform continue to lose support - and I think they will, especially if they gain and screw up more councils and Trump continues to be a useful idiot and discredit the international hard-right - then we end up with a vacuum. The Conservatives could come through the middle I guess, especially if they realise they need to go more centre-right again (perhaps changing leader) to maximise electoral success. Or we could end up with a multi-party centre-left coalition (Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, Nats).

 

[Falcon1200]

(that said, people who buy the Mail, Express etc are converts to the hard-right cause already)

You know everyone that reads those papers and their politics then? I (confession time, I will now go and don my hair shirt) read the Mail, but would not regard myself in any way as hard right - I voted Labour in 2024 (and have done before) and against Brexit! Nor will I ever vote Reform, and I cannot stand Farage. But this Government, and Prime Minister, have disappointed me in a way no other (not even BoJo or Truss) has before, and I genuinely fear for the future, not least because none of the rumoured replacements for Starmer fills me with any hope.

 

[Harpo]

The media have been savaging Labour since the day after the general election. At first it was a wholly unjustified media agenda but then the blunders began and multiplied, with nothing (bar maybe the 2 child cap) delivered for traditional Labour supporters that it can point to as successes.

Labour had an open goal in July ‘24 and haven’t so much missed it as walked away from the ball.

 

[nw1]

You know everyone that reads those papers and their politics then? I (confession time, I will now go and don my hair shirt) read the Mail, but would not regard myself in any way as hard right - I voted Labour in 2024 (and have done before) and against Brexit! Nor will I ever vote Reform, and I cannot stand Farage. But this Government, and Prime Minister, have disappointed me in a way no other (not even BoJo or Truss) has before, and I genuinely fear for the future, not least because none of the rumoured replacements for Starmer fills me with any hope.

Apologies - I was over-generalising but perhaps it's hard not to when you see their headlines - the kind of thing which leads you to think that it only appeals to the hard right.

 

[Falcon1200]

Apologies - I was over-generalising but perhaps it's hard not to when you see their headlines

No problem, I know what you mean! I certainly don't agree with everything published in the Mail, but for me that applies to all newspapers.

 

[edwin_m]

But this Government, and Prime Minister, have disappointed me in a way no other (not even BoJo or Truss) has before, and I genuinely fear for the future, not least because none of the rumoured replacements for Starmer fills me with any hope.

But is that because they are objectively worse, or how they compare wtih expectations? In my own case I had very low expectation of both Johnson and Truss, and moderate expectations of Starmer considering the size of the mountain Labour had to climb. All three fell short of my expectation, Starmer more so than the Tories, but I'd still rate Starmer's performance as the least bad of the three.

 

[generalnerd]

Ever seen 'The light' (paper)? I'd like to know who's behind that rag...

It’s the most miserable conspiracy theorist peddling things I’ve ever seen