Staff on non-ganwayed sets

[ikcdab]

I frequently see cross-country voyager GWR 801s that are two sets coupled together with no gangway between the two units.
How are the staff distributed when there are two units like this coupled together? How do they reach all passengers? Are there two sets of trolley staff? A guard in one unit and ticket inspector in another? I guess they can swap units at stations but then what happens on limited stop trains?
I know this isn't a new issue: trains with slip coaches used to have slip guards in each portion.
What happens today?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It really depends on the company, some that run Driver only, such as c2c, may have only the driver across 3 units that don't have through corridors, meanwhile CrossCountry must have a guard in both units or the unit without gets locked out.

 

[stan claire]

The northerns I get usually just have the driver in the front set and the guard in the rear but I've seen revenue (or sometimes off-duty guards) in the front set of BPN-MIAs a lot more recently

 

[yorkie]

On Northern you would typically have only the driver in the front portion, and only the Guard in the rear portion. There would typically be no customer-facing staff in the front portion, unless the train is diagrammed for a travelling ticket inspector / revenue protection officer.

CrossCountry has to have customer-facing staff in each portion; this would typically be a Train Manager (Guard) in the rear portion, and catering staff in the front portion as a minimum.

 

[ValleyLines142]

On GWR 10-car IETs the host is usually in the front set and the Train Manager in the rear.

 

[paul@skegby.org.]

On a Crosscountry train with two sets, If you buy a 1st class ticket from there website are you placed in correct set allocate seat with catering staff to receive complementaries if any?

 

[yorkie]

On a Crosscountry train with two sets, If you buy a 1st class ticket from there website are you placed in correct set allocate seat with catering staff to receive complementaries if any?

They usually default to and advise Coach A to maximise the chances of a host being available. However if refreshments aren't crucial to you, it may be advantageous to get the rear set, as it can be much quieter!

On some trains it's possible that it will be the other way round, e.g. due to reversals, but your chances are generally higher in Coach A.

 

[Horizon22]

GWR would have the host ("front set lead") in the front 5-car, with the Train Manager in the rear.

Therefore you in theory have the driver to attend to one unit, and the Train Manager to attend to the other unit.

It does seem odd that we have no consistency in this matter and XC go around locking out whole units.

 

[ikcdab]

By "host"..who do you mean? Is that a ticket inspector, the trolley person or someone else?

 

[dk1]

When Anglia Railways had 170s in East Anglia & they operated on the GEML they would operate in up to 3x3-car formations. The rules within this were that a conductor was provided but could be in any of the units. DOO was allowed south of Ipswich (once NX took over in 2004) but ONLY with a single 170 and any operating in multiple had to have a conductor onboard. Catering would be provided in all units if staff were available but in normal circumstances it was only in two sometimes one unit. Catering staff were not safety trained (PTS) so had no bearing on daily operation.

 

[HChip]

When 3 755 sets are used on the intercity routes between Norwich and Liverpool St, the guard will work his or her way forward, from what I’ve seen. They spend time in the front, then middle, then rear, or vice versa. I am unsure as to what catering staff do on these.

 

[dk1]

When 3 755 sets are used on the intercity routes between Norwich and Liverpool St, the guard will work his or her way forward, from what I’ve seen. They spend time in the front, then middle, then rear, or vice versa. I am unsure as to what catering staff do on these.

Catering are only permitted to move at Colchester. When this and when the guard moves between units he/she informs the driver they are leaving one unit then confirms again when one or both are aboard the next.

 

[TUC]

I'd like to think there was good operational logic to the different approaches, such as challenges from different train designs or the stations covered, but....

 

[mangyiscute]

GWR would have the host ("front set lead") in the front 5-car, with the Train Manager in the rear.

Therefore you in theory have the driver to attend to one unit, and the Train Manager to attend to the other unit.

It does seem odd that we have no consistency in this matter and XC go around locking out whole units.

GWR has trained hosts to be lead hosts so they have safety responsibilities too as a result of them being the person in charge of one set of a 10 car, the driver does not have this responsibility.
This also means the guard can go into the front set if they wish and leave a lead host in charge of the rear set.

 

[Horizon22]

GWR has trained hosts to be lead hosts so they have safety responsibilities too as a result of them being the person in charge of one set of a 10 car, the driver does not have this responsibility.
This also means the guard can go into the front set if they wish and leave a lead host in charge of the rear set.

Yep they can swap of course. I was more suggesting in some sort of significant crisis - like a prolonged, stranded train - that the driver and the TM being in opposite sets would be beneficial. The driver of course has multiple safety responsibilities.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2026 ==

By "host"..who do you mean? Is that a ticket inspector, the trolley person or someone else?

for GWR, its originally catering crew who have been upskilled with additional safety responsibilities.

 

[stadler]

XC are the most ridiculous in requiring two guards on 220+220 or 221+221 formations. I think they are the only TOC that requires two actual guards. GWR and LNER and AWC on the 80X+80X only require one guard in the rear unit and one host in the front unit. But oddly the XC rule only seems to apply to ex VT stuff. They allow the ex CT stuff to run as 170+170 with one guard.

Northern have the policy where the guard must remain in the rear unit for the entire journey and no more than two units without gangways can be coupled in passenger service.

The situation of some TOCs requiring one member of staff in each unit seems so ridiculous when other TOCs happily run units without gangways with no members of staff on them.

Southern have been running 171+171+171 formations (three units without gangways) on London Bridge to Uckfield services for over fifteen years with just one guard and the guard has always been allowed to be in whatever unit they want. Sometimes they are in the front and sometimes they are in the middle and sometimes they are in the rear. When they are in the front unit it means that both the middle and rear units have no staff members. But this arrangement works fine. It has never caused any issues.

Many different TOCs operate DOO trains formed of three units without gangways. GA and GN had some 317+317+317 and 321+321+321 and 360+360+360 and 365+365+365 formations. SE have some 465+465+465 formations. Chiltern have some 165+165+165 or 168+168+168 formations. GWR had some 165+165+165 or 166+166+166 formations. These are all two units with no staff members. Even just two units coupled still means one unit without staff members. But it seems to work fine.

I would like to see these rules on some TOCs like Northern / XC / GWR / LNER / AWC relaxed in the future to allow a unit to operate without any staff onboard. It works fine on other TOCs so why not on these. It is ridiculous that there is so much variation between operators.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Until December TPE guards were allowed to be wherever they liked on double 185 formations, with the exception of short platforms where they had to be in the rear set in case of door issues.

Now have to be in the rear set at all times after the union decided it was no longer safe

 

[ValentaFan1974]

On Northern you would typically have only the driver in the front portion, and only the Guard in the rear portion. There would typically be no customer-facing staff in the front portion, unless the train is diagrammed for a travelling ticket inspector / revenue protection officer.

CrossCountry has to have customer-facing staff in each portion; this would typically be a Train Manager (Guard) in the rear portion, and catering staff in the front portion as a minimum.

XC now require a Train Manager to be in each set on a double Voyager. If not one set gets locked out. Catering staff such as myself used to be utilised as a “competent person” in the front set of only 1 Train Manager was available but that agreement came to an end.

Most catering staff didn’t mind doing it.
The company wants us to do it.
The union however, does not.

 

[class 9]

Don't forget the union represents YOU, they work on your behalf, as a grade you need to make your feelings known, either at your local branch meeting or directly to the LLC rep.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

We’ve tried. Trust me.

 

[Haywain]

Don't forget the union represents YOU, they work on your behalf, as a grade you need to make your feelings known, either at your local branch meeting or directly to the LLC rep.

Easy to say, but the union will also represent the guards. I would guess that the union sees no detriment to catering staff in not carrying out such duties, whereas doing so reduces the requirement for guards to be employed.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Easy to say, but the union will also represent the guards. I would guess that the union sees no detriment to catering staff in not carrying out such duties, whereas doing so reduces the requirement for guards to be employed.

Except that it seems to be ok with other TOC’s?

No consistency - and certainly no consideration for passengers wedged into a 4 coach train that’s actually 8 or 9 coaches.

 

[LowLevel]

Don't forget the union represents YOU, they work on your behalf, as a grade you need to make your feelings known, either at your local branch meeting or directly to the LLC rep.

It's not exactly a secret that when it comes to RMT decision making and policy that guards will generally come out on top priority wise wherever possible given the large number of them that hold the bargaining chip of safety critical status. If there's an agreement to use 2 guards or to have 1 guard and 1 caterer then they will pick 2 x guards wherever possible - the wishes of the caterers won't come into it.

The same thing occurs at EMR - except in defined circumstances the Intercity 222/810 services will have a train manager per set. The 360s and Regional services will only have 1 though there is a provision for additional staff to be rostered to assist to help manage things like football specials.

 

[Haywain]

Except that it seems to be ok with other TOC’s?

The unions generally operate at company level which is why you can get these sort of differences.

and certainly no consideration for passengers

Unions exist to act in the interests of and for the benefit of their members, and no-one else. Passengers are often caught between the two sides and the union would argue that they are not preventing passengers using the second set, it is the employer doing that by declining or failing to provide enough staff of the agreed grade.

 

[RiverDon]

Most Scotrail guards seem to stay in the back unit but some will swap between them. The only time they absolutely have to be in the back unit is in some unusual fault situations when they have to stay in the front cab of the second set ready to apply the brakes in an emergency, but in that case all the passengers would have to be moved into the front set.

 

[DelW]

Easy to say, but the union will also represent the guards. I would guess that the union sees no detriment to catering staff in not carrying out such duties, whereas doing so reduces the requirement for guards to be employed.

But XC doesn't seem to employ any more guards, it just runs trains with half the coaches locked out, a visible slap in the face for passengers crammed in and standing. So those passengers either switch to other operators, or to cars or coaches so reducing revenue to the railway as a whole.

I used to use XC regularly, but travel on the leg between Reading and the Midlands became so unpleasant so often, that I switched to going via London instead. The double connection and tube transfer is less convenient than the Reading change, but I almost always get a seat on SWR and Avanti or Chiltern. If they're not an option then I drive.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

It’s frustrating for all concerned.

 

[125Spotter]

When this and when the guard moves between units he/she informs the driver they are leaving one unit then confirms again when one or both are aboard the next.

[I realise the original post referred to Anglia services, not GWR – my curiosity got the better of me]

Is this why, on 10-car GWR IET services, I will often hear over the PA messages to the effect of "would the lead host in the front set please make the next IC call" – presumably the train manager moving between sets and advising the lead host of their location/handing over certain of those safety-critical responsibilities to them?

I have often thought the TM and lead host seem to need to converse far more often during a journey than one might otherwise expect. I realise they will need to speak at times in relation to operational matters, but for the most part their roles are well-defined and choreographed such that in the absence of an emergency or other pressing issue, each presumably knows what they're doing. Sometimes I'll hear this negotiation happen multiple times in quick succession throughout a journey. If I had taken more notice I might have spotted differences in the number of times I hear it by 5/9/10-car sets and perhaps based on the stopping pattern/short platforms too.

 

[transportphoto]

The only time they absolutely have to be in the back unit is in some unusual fault situations when they have to stay in the front cab of the second set ready to apply the brakes in an emergency, but in that case all the passengers would have to be moved into the front set.

This would be the case in any TOC - when it needs to happen is defined in the defective on train equipment parts of the rulebook.

 

[dk1]

[I realise the original post referred to Anglia services, not GWR – my curiosity got the better of me]

Is this why, on 10-car GWR IET services, I will often hear over the PA messages to the effect of "would the lead host in the front set please make the next IC call" – presumably the train manager moving between sets and advising the lead host of their location/handing over certain of those safety-critical responsibilities to them?

I have often thought the TM and lead host seem to need to converse far more often during a journey than one might otherwise expect. I realise they will need to speak at times in relation to operational matters, but for the most part their roles are well-defined and choreographed such that in the absence of an emergency or other pressing issue, each presumably knows what they're doing. Sometimes I'll hear this negotiation happen multiple times in quick succession throughout a journey. If I had taken more notice I might have spotted differences in the number of times I hear it by 5/9/10-car sets and perhaps based on the stopping pattern/short platforms too.

Sorry I don’t know anything about GWR. At GA (Stadler) there is a strict policy due to DCO operation.