Crewe to Chester. How can electrification be utilised?

[northwichcat]

I am pretty certain that the Holyhead route will not be a major route for non-car travelling passengers to travel between Ireland and the UK in anyone's lifetime here.

How do you define 'major route'. If you mean enough passengers to fill one or two Airbus 32xs everyday then I'm afraid it already is a major route. If you're meaning enough to fill at least one Eurostar length train every hour then no it probably won't reach that level, partly because Dublin is much smaller than Paris.

As I pointed out in an earlier post I think there is just as much need for services like Leeds-Holyhead as for London-Holyhead.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

As I pointed out in an earlier post I think there is just as much need for services like Leeds-Holyhead as for London-Holyhead.[/QUOTE]

3 Hours Leeds to Holyhead, 2 hours crossing, 1 hour into Dublin

1/2 to airport, 1 hour check-in, 50 minute flight, 1 hour in to Dublin at a fraction of the fare.

Mr O' Leary has pretty much cornered the market. You just aren't going to get people paying more to take longer unless they have a fear of flying (and then they'd probably drive!)
It would be interesting to see what percentage of people actually travel to Ireland by rail and boat as I am sure it is rather small.
Ryanair alone have virtually an hourly service from Stansted plus flights from Luton and Gatwick to Dublin witohut even taking into account other airlines and flights to regional Irish airports
(Could imagine trying to persuade some of the locals in the Coopers in Kilburn to make the trip home by train and boat - would expect some 'Father Hackett' type responses).

 

[northwichcat]

3 Hours Leeds to Holyhead, 2 hours crossing, 1 hour into Dublin

1/2 to airport, 1 hour check-in, 50 minute flight, 1 hour in to Dublin at a fraction of the fare.

Mr O' Leary has pretty much cornered the market. You just aren't going to get people paying more to take longer unless they have a fear of flying (and then they'd probably drive!)

I'll repeat myself here:
National Express run Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Manchester Airport-Liverpool-Chester-Dublin coach services, so not everyone does drive.

If there's no demand for non-air travel other than car then why provide a coach service?

Airports recommend you arrive 2 hours before your flight departure time, if arriving by car and 2.5 hours if arriving by public transport.

Looking at flights for Manchester-Dublin with Rynair on 22nd August it would cost £62.50 to £105.20 SINGLE without a luggage allowance or credit/debit card fee. It would cost £35 for Manchester to Dublin booking with Arriva Trains Wales. Ryanair's all well and good months in advance but booking weeks or days in advance is very expensive.

 

[tbtc]

London - Stranraer used to be a rail market, even with sleepers. Look at it now... nobody uses the train to get to Northern Ireland. Why live in the past?

 

[jones_bangor]

Eventually oil may run out, things will worsen etc but that is not going to be in their lifetimes and few people look beyond that.

Maybe not in the lifetime of the "we can have it all" baby boomers - who's going to be left to clean up after after they're 6ft under?

Quite a lot of evidence that "peak oil" has already been reached, oil WILL run out, that's a geological certainty. It will run out even quicker if we keep flying people between British cities like Glasgow, Belfast, Dublin and London, and short hops to the continent when viable rail alternatives exist.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

London - Stranraer used to be a rail market, even with sleepers. Look at it now... nobody uses the train to get to Northern Ireland. Why live in the past?

We may well have to go back to the past to discover a way forward. How many Chinese and Indians are there - all wanting OUR lifestyle - do you really think we can carry on as we are now? The irony is that they are lending us the money to continue our lifestyle....those loan have to be paid back.....those loans probably paid for most of the modern trains out there on Britain's metal right now!!

 

[merlodlliw]

Quite a lot of evidence that "peak oil" has already been reached, oil WILL run out, that's a geological certainty. It will run out even quicker if we keep flying people between British cities like Glasgow, Belfast, Dublin and London, and short hops to the continent when viable rail alternatives exist. quote Jones Bangor

You have with all respect left out Cardiff, WAGAIR subsidised by Welsh Government at £1.6millions a year, when First Premier Class OA rail subsidised by Welsh Government at £2.4 a year exists.
Nice for those who live in North West Wales. It seems the WAG EX will hit the buffers first, thanks to the beloved previous Minister who gave WAGAIR a four year contract.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

We may well have to go back to the past to discover a way forward. How many Chinese and Indians are there - all wanting OUR lifestyle - do you really think we can carry on as we are now? The irony is that they are lending us the money to continue our lifestyle....those loan have to be paid back.....those loans probably paid for most of the modern trains out there on Britain's metal right now!!

Well, if this is your main concern then doesn't it make sense to concentrate electric units on electric lines, and minimise diesels running on electrified lines?

Much more efficient to avoid running a diesel train a couple of hundred miles under electrification?

(and, as Bob has said, flights from Holyhead to Cardiff aren't exactly efficient, are they?)

 

[jones_bangor]

Well, if this is your main concern then doesn't it make sense to concentrate electric units on electric lines, and minimise diesels running on electrified lines?

Much more efficient to avoid running a diesel train a couple of hundred miles under electrification?

(and, as Bob has said, flights from Holyhead to Cardiff aren't exactly efficient, are they?)

If diesels running ENTIRELY under wires are your concern, look at BIrmingham - Edinburgh / Glasgow services first.....

At least Holyhead - Euston's run for a decent % under fresh air....

I repeat...but...Holyhead - Euston IS the route for the 125mph capable Voyagers!

N.B. I really am not a fan of air travel, though Valley - Cardiff is hardly a 747!

 

[tbtc]

If diesels running ENTIRELY under wires are your concern, look at BIrmingham - Edinburgh / Glasgow services first.....

Well, I've mentioned examples of this in the past, like criticising the use of 158s on the Lymington branch, and nobody accused me of being anti-English....

Its a serious issue though, hence this thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46017

At the moment Virgin use their Voyagers on the Chester services and the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh duties (plus a couple of London - Lancaster journeys). Get rid of the need for Voyagers on the North Wales coast (whether by dragging 390s or otherwise...) and you can then eliminate the wasteful useage of Voyagers running on duties entirely under wires.

However, due to the need to have "critical mass" there are no suggestions of them getting rid of half the Voyager fleet (which XC badly need!), partly because that'd leave a small number to run the Chester duties, and that becomes uneconomical.

Really, how we deal with electrification to Chester could be the first step in a whole chain of overall-improvements.

At least Holyhead - Euston's run for a decent % under fresh air....

By my reckoning over two thirds of the distance from London to Holyhead will be under wires once the extension to Chester happens.

 

[jones_bangor]

At the moment Virgin use their Voyagers on the Chester services and the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh duties (plus a couple of London - Lancaster journeys). Get rid of the need for Voyagers on the North Wales coast (whether by dragging 390s or otherwise...) and you can then eliminate the wasteful useage of Voyagers running on duties entirely under wires.

However, due to the need to have "critical mass" there are no suggestions of them getting rid of half the Voyager fleet (which XC badly need!), partly because that'd leave a small number to run the Chester duties, and that becomes uneconomical.

Really, how we deal with electrification to Chester could be the first step in a whole chain of overall-improvements.

By my reckoning over two thirds of the distance from London to Holyhead will be under wires once the extension to Chester happens.

Still less than the main trunk of the WCML.

Are you seriously suggesting that Virgin can give up their 221s. What do they replace them with? Who's going to pay for the replacements. I'm afraid it's pie in the sky........

Is this Crewe - Chester extension a done deal...no!....it's a maybe.....

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I did say in an ideal world we would have a fully electrified and integrated service - we do not live in one though.
It is therefore better to assess what big business and politicos may deem as viable and push for that rather than go for something they would consider as an extravagance in these 'hard economic times'.
I would be surpised if even the Crewe-Chester stretch is electrified in the next 30 years let alone anything beyond it.
It's more likely that North Wales first new electrification will be Bidston-Wrexham line.

 

[merlodlliw]

N.B. I really am not a fan of air travel, though Valley - Cardiff is hardly a 747![/QUOTE] Jones Bangor

WAGAIR may not be a large aircraft,but it is duplicating a Premier Class open access rail service both run at taxpayers expense and is not required in my opinion, however with all respect you seem to treat this internal Wales flight as its not a 747,but you are quick to criticize other areas as stated in thread 65. I also note your comment about Dublin,below,

flying people between British cities like Glasgow, Belfast, Dublin and London, and short hops to the continent when viable rail alternatives exist


Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

Quite a lot of evidence that "peak oil" has already been reached, oil WILL run out, that's a geological certainty. It will run out even quicker if we keep flying people between British cities like Glasgow, Belfast, Dublin and London, and short hops to the continent when viable rail alternatives exist.

We may well have to go back to the past to discover a way forward. How many Chinese and Indians are there - all wanting OUR lifestyle - do you really think we can carry on as we are now?

I don't think we can do anything but carry on as we are now, I doubt enough pepole will completly give up the modern lifestyle. We might be able to cut certain particularly damaging aspects of the modern lifestyle (aviation in particular) out of that though, and this we need to do. We could use renewable energy etc. to allow us to keep a similar lifestyle with just a few of the worst aspects removed IF there were fewer of us, international birth control is needed.

Until we've taken the hammer we need to take to aviation, I'd feel inclined to agree with those who say Holyhead isn't really used for Irish rail-sail travel. However, that doesn't really stack up with my personal observation of a quite busy ferry check-in area at Holyhead station the time I visted.

N.B. I really am not a fan of air travel, though Valley - Cardiff is hardly a 747!

WAGAIR may not be a large aircraft,but it is duplicating a Premier Class open access rail service both run at taxpayers expense and is not required in my opinion, however with all respect you seem to treat this internal Wales flight as its not a 747,but you are quick to criticize other areas

Why support the Valley-Cardiff plane JonesBangor? I say it should go like the other flights you mentioned, and since (unlike the others) it is taxpayer subsidised it should be nice and easy to get rid of. Shame the express loco-hauled train service looks like going too.

 

[jones_bangor]

I don't think we can do anything but carry on as we are now, I doubt enough pepole will completly give up the modern lifestyle. .

Is your head in the sand too? With c 1% of the world population, I really don't think that's a viable alternative!! We're all facing cuts in our living standards of c. 20% - as I've said before the government's cuts haven't even hit yet. That's what people don't get about globalisation, it's going to be about our living standards falling whilst those in China and India rise.

Why support the Valley-Cardiff plane JonesBangor? I say it should go like the other flights you mentioned, and since (unlike the others) it is taxpayer subsidised it should be nice and easy to get rid of. Shame the express loco-hauled train service looks like going too.

Hang on...two things here:
1. I don't really support WagAir, but I think the whole argument about it is going over the top really,
2. Who's saying the EXpress train service is going? The last I heard Arriva were looking at more express loco hauled between North and South!! There's a lot of rumour dressed up as facts on this board! One of Merlodlliw's posts, if I recall correctly, quoted the First Minister's support for this service!!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's more likely that North Wales first new electrification will be Bidston-Wrexham line.

I really don't think so. The money will never appear for this. As I've said before, if WG pulled their finger out they could lobby Europe (with help from the Irish) for funding Crewe - Holyhead electrics.

 

[tbtc]

Are you seriously suggesting that Virgin can give up their 221s

Yes.

Voyagers are badly needed elsewhere in Britain (note, Dublin is not in Britain...), we have four coach XC Voyagers that can't cope with demand between places like Manchester and Birmingham...

As discussed before, no other diesel trains can match Voyager timings, so there is nothing else that can increase capacity on the existing XC services.

If the bulk of the Virgin services were terminated at Chester (with maybe a Peodo drag or the service I suggested which would provide medium sized places like Shrewsbury/ Telford/ Walsall with a London link) then there's twenty five coach Voyagers freed up to provide additional capacity on the core Bristol/Reading-Newcastle/Manchester part of XC (doubling up services).

Should also be pointed out that these aren't "Virgins" trains to give up...

What do they replace them with? Who's going to pay for the replacements. I'm afraid it's pie in the sky........

As you'll have noticed in recent years, its much easier to order new EMUs than DMUs - ROSCOs don't want stuck with diesel trains when more and more lines are being electrified (meaning they can't guarantee the diesels will be hired out for thirty years).

So more EMUs are being built. Logically you'd order 30-35 to run London - Chester and Birmingham/Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh (maybe some more for London - Northampton etc), alongside the existing West Coast 390s.

EMUs are much cheaper in the long run, so easier to order.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why support the Valley-Cardiff plane JonesBangor? I say it should go like the other flights you mentioned, and since (unlike the others) it is taxpayer subsidised it should be nice and easy to get rid of. Shame the express loco-hauled train service looks like going too.

I don't understand how anyone can support the Valley-Cardiff planes - especially since there is a direct train service every couple of hours from Holyhead to Cardiff (unlike, say, London - Dublin, where no direct train journey exists).

Then again, I don't understand why some people demand international passengers change modes of transport part way across the journey, yet don't want to have to change trains to get to Cardiff. Strange.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is your head in the sand too? With c 1% of the world population, I really don't think that's a viable alternative!! We're all facing cuts in our living standards of c. 20% - as I've said before the government's cuts haven't even hit yet. That's what people don't get about globalisation, it's going to be about our living standards falling whilst those in China and India rise

Cuts in living standards will probably mean fewer people doing journeys like London - Dublin full stop - not suddenly moving back to taking the train to change for the ferry.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is your head in the sand too? With c 1% of the world population, I really don't think that's a viable alternative!! We're all facing cuts in our living standards of c. 20% - as I've said before the government's cuts haven't even hit yet. That's what people don't get about globalisation, it's going to be about our living standards falling whilst those in China and India rise.



Hang on...two things here:
1. I don't really support WagAir, but I think the whole argument about it is going over the top really,
2. Who's saying the EXpress train service is going? The last I heard Arriva were looking at more express loco hauled between North and South!! There's a lot of rumour dressed up as facts on this board! One of Merlodlliw's posts, if I recall correctly, quoted the First Minister's support for this service!!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I really don't think so. The money will never appear for this. As I've said before, if WG pulled their finger out they could lobby Europe (with help from the Irish) for funding Crewe - Holyhead electrics.

My post said, The present First Minister was reported from very liable sources as saying he was not a fan of the Premier 1st Class dining type Service. I will give the sources to whoever PMs me.

As for Wagair, Again why is it going over the top,you criticized other places in thread 65, for duplicating rail/air, either you support it, or you don't, what's so special about Cardiff having duplication.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

We are facing massive lifestyle changes in the next few years, and not through choice. However I don't think that this will necessarily impact negatively on rail travel, whether it be UK to Ireland or Birmingham to Manchester.

What I think will happen, and has already happened, is that the market for short, one or two night air based trips to places like Prague, Amsterdam, Dublin and the like will shrink enormously if not disappear altogether.

Add to this the increasing cost of motoring and I can see that while the total number of journeys willdecrease overall, rail's share will increase.

 

[merlodlliw]

Like the new logo, "Toad in the hole" comes to mind, perhaps that's a bit rude , so ill just think it


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

My post said, The present First Minister was reported from very liable sources as saying he was not a fan of the Premier 1st Class dining type Service. I will give the sources to whoever PMs me.

As for Wagair, Again why is it going over the top,you criticized other places in thread 65, for duplicating rail/air, either you support it, or you don't, what's so special about Cardiff having duplication.

I am not against duplication, but I do support viable alternatives. Some of the posters would enjoy those viable alternatives being trashed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Voyagers are badly needed elsewhere in Britain (note, Dublin is not in Britain...), we have four coach XC Voyagers that can't cope with demand between places like Manchester and Birmingham...

As discussed before, no other diesel trains can match Voyager timings, so there is nothing else that can increase capacity on the existing XC services.

I understand a lot of the problems on XC is that commuters are using the services. Maybe an answer would be to go for a reservation only operation.

If the bulk of the Virgin services were terminated at Chester ......then there's twenty five coach Voyagers freed up to provide additional capacity on the core Bristol/Reading-Newcastle/Manchester part of XC (doubling up services).

Not happening. Keep dreaming. Maybe the ex-GWML HST's could do this work?

So more EMUs are being built. Logically you'd order 30-35 to run London - Chester and Birmingham/Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh (maybe some more for London - Northampton etc), alongside the existing West Coast 390s.

EMUs are much cheaper in the long run, so easier to order.

With the public sector cuts about to hit the UK, who exactly will pay for doubling the Pendolino fleet - after all the new trains will have to be expensive tilt enabled EMUs to keep time (in line with your argument above).....

I don't understand how anyone can support the Valley-Cardiff planes - especially since there is a direct train service every couple of hours from Holyhead to Cardiff (unlike, say, London - Dublin, where no direct train journey exists).

Have I said I support it? I just think it's a storm in a teacup.

Then again, I don't understand why some people demand international passengers change modes of transport part way across the journey, yet don't want to have to change trains to get to Cardiff. Strange.

So you want to stop the North - South services as well? Why not just rip up the tracks west of Chester while you're at it!!? You really do have a problem with Wales!

Cuts in living standards will probably mean fewer people doing journeys like London - Dublin full stop - not suddenly moving back to taking the train to change for the ferry.

Really? Reality tells me otherwise, there's lots of Irishmen and women working in the UK, London and beyond.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Voyagers are badly needed elsewhere in Britain (note, Dublin is not in Britain...), we have four coach XC Voyagers that can't cope with demand between places like Manchester and Birmingham...

As discussed before, no other diesel trains can match Voyager timings, so there is nothing else that can increase capacity on the existing XC services.

I understand a lot of the problems on XC is that commuters are using the services. Maybe an answer would be to go for a reservation only operation.

If the bulk of the Virgin services were terminated at Chester ......then there's twenty five coach Voyagers freed up to provide additional capacity on the core Bristol/Reading-Newcastle/Manchester part of XC (doubling up services).

Not happening. Keep dreaming. Maybe the ex-GWML HST's could do this work?

So more EMUs are being built. Logically you'd order 30-35 to run London - Chester and Birmingham/Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh (maybe some more for London - Northampton etc), alongside the existing West Coast 390s.

EMUs are much cheaper in the long run, so easier to order.

With the public sector cuts about to hit the UK, who exactly will pay for doubling the Pendolino fleet - after all the new trains will have to tilt to keep time (in line with your argument above).....

I don't understand how anyone can support the Valley-Cardiff planes - especially since there is a direct train service every couple of hours from Holyhead to Cardiff (unlike, say, London - Dublin, where no direct train journey exists).

Have I said I support it? I just think it's a storm in a teacup.

Then again, I don't understand why some people demand international passengers change modes of transport part way across the journey, yet don't want to have to change trains to get to Cardiff. Strange.

So you want to stop the North - South services as well? Why not just rip up the tracks west of Chester while you're at it!!? You really do have a problem with Wales!

Cuts in living standards will probably mean fewer people doing journeys like London - Dublin full stop - not suddenly moving back to taking the train to change for the ferry.

Really? Reality tells me otherwise, there's lots of Irishmen and women working in the UK, London and beyond.

 

[Gareth Marston]

tbtc has floated his rob Peter to pay Paul ideas before but alas cannot provide solutions to what happens to the passengers/routes who have had trains robbed from them. When he cracks that maybe he could be taken seriously.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Who's saying the EXpress train service is going? The last I heard Arriva were looking at more express loco hauled between North and South!! There's a lot of rumour dressed up as facts on this board!

I didn't say it was going, I said it looked (to me) like it was going. While most of the suggestions on here that the Expresses will end are opinion, Merlodlliw's information regarding the December draft timetable shows the 67s that were supposed to take over then haven't materialised. To me, that suggests the service will probablly cease, although I could be wrong and if it does go it would not necessarily go indefinatly.

With the public sector cuts about to hit the UK, who exactly will pay for doubling the Pendolino fleet - after all the new trains will have to be expensive tilt enabled EMUs to keep time (in line with your argument above).....

Wrong question. Who will pay for electrifying the Severn Tunnel Diversionary Route, the ValleyLines and Swansea - Cardiff (I'm hopeing/assuming WAG scrap the 2nd half of the Heads Of The Valleys scheme to buy EMUs)? Find money for those wires, and you knock the cost of over 200 £250,000 diesel engines off the IEP order. The saving by going pure-electric for IEP would, I think, cover the purchase of 21 11-car Pendos. ICWC's 21 221s could then go to XC and 14-20 220s could move from XC to GW for the Cotswolds line, prefrably with the much debated pantograph cars (or get hold of 180s some how). It is the cost of the wires that is the problem.

Footnote to the above: you might need to add Crewe-Chester to the list of extra wires, it depends how many 57+Pendo drags you can have.

 

[merlodlliw]

I wont cut & paste your thread 79, or we will have three sets.

You say you support viable alternatives, well WAGAIR is not viable without the £1.6millions taxpayers subsidy, the fare charged is under £20, in no way is that
fare viable without WAG subsidy, but you appear to support it.

todays regional daily The Daily Post, is giving away tickets for flights to the Isle Of Man, it also states the fare to Cardiff as under £20 on the same Company plane.


Bob

 

[tbtc]

tbtc has floated his rob Peter to pay Paul ideas before but alas cannot provide solutions to what happens to the passengers/routes who have had trains robbed from them. When he cracks that maybe he could be taken seriously.

Sorry to see the personal insults here Gareth... I explained before (e.g. on post five of this thread) that the ScotRail electrification will displace almost fifty 158s, which are perfect for lines like the North Wales coast. They'd allow more services from Manchester to the coast via Chester (Manchester to Chester being a very busy section already), or even links from Liverpool to North Wales (something which is sadly lacking, but used to run before).

A 158 seems ideal for the line speeds of the North Wales coast (a 125mph Voyager is clearly wasted here!), plus the kind of unit suited to journeys of up to an hour or two elsewhere in the UK where there's no 100mph running.

I understand a lot of the problems on XC is that commuters are using the services. Maybe an answer would be to go for a reservation only operation

So you make the service "reservation only" - how does that help between Manchester and Birmingham, where there are no other TOCs providing services?

A four car Voyager only has around two hundred seats (some of which are First Class, so under 200 standard class ones) - how can you meet the demand for Manchester to Birmingham services? Compulsory reservations only work on routes where there is a clear alternative (e.g. the Alphaline 158s from South Wales to Waterloo, where there was an obvious alternative service from Cardiff to Paddington).

Bear in mind that Manchester and Birmingham are two of the largest conurbations in the UK, no other diesel trains could match those paths, yet there are a few Voyagers that could be freed up...

Not happening. Keep dreaming. Maybe the ex-GWML HST's could do this work?

No, as has been explained before. Voyager acceleration is far superior, and the paths have been timed for Voyagers. Don't just take my word for it, see also The Planner's thoughts on this thread...

With the public sector cuts about to hit the UK, who exactly will pay for doubling the Pendolino fleet - after all the new trains will have to be expensive tilt enabled EMUs to keep time (in line with your argument above).....

So, with the cuts biting, are you suggesting that no new trains will be built for the WCML? Which would mean diesels running Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow? Not very environmentally friendly...

So you want to stop the North - South services as well? Why not just rip up the tracks west of Chester while you're at it!!?

I just want trains to focus on where the real demand is, regardless of politics. Clearly there's more demand for journeys like Wrexham-Manchester or Bangor - Liverpool than for journeys to Cardiff (apart from those on tax payer junkets, of course...). I've never seen a Cardiff City shirt being worn in Bangor any time I've visited, for example.

You really do have a problem with Wales!

Really? Reality tells me otherwise, there's lots of Irishmen and women working in the UK, London and beyond

Ah, so you think there's going to be a massive downturn in living standards which will wipe out international air travel, but there'll still be the same demand to travel internationally?

(good to see that you've acknowledged that Dublin isn't a "British City" though)

 

[jones_bangor]

158 seems ideal for the line speeds of the North Wales coast (a 125mph Voyager is clearly wasted here!), plus the kind of unit suited to journeys of up to an hour or two elsewhere in the UK where there's no 100mph running.

My understanding is that not much of the XC route is actually geared for Voyager tilt operation, so their 125mph tilt speed would never be required nor utilised!!

So you make the service "reservation only" - how does that help between Manchester and Birmingham, where there are no other TOCs providing services?

A four car Voyager only has around two hundred seats (some of which are First Class, so under 200 standard class ones) - how can you meet the demand for Manchester to Birmingham services?

Bear in mind that Manchester and Birmingham are two of the largest conurbations in the UK, no other diesel trains could match those paths, yet there are a few Voyagers that could be freed up...

No, as has been explained before. Voyager acceleration is far superior, and the paths have been timed for Voyagers. Don't just take my word for it, see also The Planner's thoughts on this thread...

Well clearly there would have to a timetable re-jig, but I bet it's only a few minutes on the journey.

So, with the cuts biting, are you suggesting that no new trains will be built for the WCML? Which would mean diesels running Birmingham - Edinburgh/Glasgow? Not very environmentally friendly...

Yep - don't see many new trains in the next 10 years, and don't forget those diesels are the workhorses of the WCML - most of the trains I see on the WCML north of Crewe seem to Voyagers!!

I just want trains to focus on where the real demand is, regardless of politics. Clearly there's more demand for journeys like Wrexham-Manchester or Bangor - Liverpool than for journeys to Cardiff (apart from those on tax payer junkets, of course...). I've never seen a Cardiff City shirt being worn in Bangor any time I've visited, for example.

So we've now moved on from North Wales - London to North Wales - Cardiff...... And while we're at it public servants and all those who are indirectly subsidised by the public purse (e.g. charities) don't count, what do you suggest - that they sit on the roof of the train? Maybe you can persuade Arriva to put some hand rails on the roof of the 153 that you probably are dreaming of for this service....

(good to see that you've acknowledged that Dublin isn't a "British City" though)

Well Ireland is part of the British Isles, so strictly speaking......

 

[merlodlliw]

So WAGAIR is a storm in a teacup, seems to me like a very expensive pot of tea at £1.6M a year WAG Subsidy,In discussions with local Politicians, I am told Carl Sgt the Current Minister for transport in Wales wants it killed off ASAP, except the previous Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones gave it a four year stay of execution, so it will have to be bought out, or like the last Company go bust. This current outfit that flies to Cardiff, was in fact the only Company that was interested,& screwed a deal where WAG pays all its landing fees (£400K PA) on top of the £1.2 million PA it gets in cash from WAG.

Anyhow we shall see what Autumn brings along, but one things for sure,this current Minister is more interested in people travel, as opposed to crony travel & I gain the impression is not so easily fooled, by Senior Managers of Tocs/NR & rest,a few red faces have been noted, when reasons for decisions have been questioned .


Bob

 

[pablo]

What happened to the original subject of this post?
(wooden spoon mode)
If you don't like CroneyAir can I suggest a Cambrian Coast Expressway from Bangor to the end of the M4? Would that provide n-s transport to suit all? (and within the principalities' borders).

 

[northwichcat]

Voyagers are badly needed elsewhere in Britain (note, Dublin is not in Britain...), we have four coach XC Voyagers that can't cope with demand between places like Manchester and Birmingham...

On that basis should we stop selling through tickets from the North and Scotland to France/Belgium and redeploy some of the Pendolinos, Mallards and Meridians elsewhere?

 

[merlodlliw]

What happened to the original subject of this post?
(wooden spoon mode)
If you don't like CroneyAir can I suggest a Cambrian Coast Expressway from Bangor to the end of the M4? Would that provide n-s transport to suit all? (and within the principalities' borders).

Yes you are correct, but as with most threads they do tend to wander,but like your heading Coneyair, or a Expressway to Bangor, that would not benefit North East Wales either.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

Back to thread -

I think the electrification to Chester could happen.

However, I remain to be convinced that Network Rail will deliver any of the planned electrification programmes to budget - their management of the WCML upgrade hardly inspires confidence.

I think Chester is a "nice to do", but I stick to the line that Europe could provide cash to upgrade Crewe - Chester - AND Holyhead, if certain ministers and their staff lobby in the right places, with support from Eire.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Very much enjoyed catching up with the cut and thrust of this thread, can't hope to compete with my more learned and hon. friends on much of this topic, but I was interested in the brief debate about rail traffic to Ireland, I have completed this trip on a number of occasions over the past few years for work purposes and whilst my daughter was at Queens University, Belfast - only once did I catch the train to H'head ( for the night ferry) - every other time it was much simpler to drive to the port, and I would imagine that would be the case for anyone who lives along the A55 corridor - trouble is the trains don't really seem to connect - especially with the ferry that arrives at 00h15, I have noticed many rail passengers at this time anxiously scanning the timetable....and then face a near 4 hour wait! As I have said in another thread, much of the potential traffic is seasonal and at weekends and holidays - when todays railways are unable or unwilling to put on extra trains