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Derby trams?

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38291018

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I've just seen that a transport group has proposed a tram system for derby and are running a consultation "runs until 8 February" and "EMCCA plans to invest more than £2bn in the coming six years" (Report I quoted from)
I mean wouldn't of thought it will actually happen personally knowing Councils ect but it includes a few lines including linking it with nottingham NET.
BBC report of proposed trams link here

Derbyshire live report of derby trams link here
A transport group has shared detailed plans for a £405m tram network across Derby and the surrounding area.



The Light Rail Transit Association (LRTA) has submitted a proposal for a modern tramway network in the city comprising four tramlines, which could see 75,000 passenger trips each day.



The proposal was compiled by the LRTA's regional officer for the region, David Gibson, in response to the East Midlands Combined County Authority (EMCCA) Mayor’s transport consultation.



A spokesperson for the LRTA said the proposed network is designed to connect Derby’s major traffic generators with its principal residential areas, something that would "significantly improve mobility" while supporting "economic growth, regeneration, and environmental objectives" across the wider Derby area.



The LRTA has released some diagrams showing how the network could look (Image: LRTA )



The proposal would see four tram lines constructed, which can be seen below:



Line 1 would run from The Wyvern, via Pride Park, Derby Midland Station, the city centre, and the former Great Northern alignment to Kingsway, before forming a loop serving the Royal Derby Hospital, Mickleover, and Mackworth.



Line 2 would connect with Line 1 at Derby Midland Station, follow the Birmingham railway corridor, and serve the Rolls-Royce Sinfin site, Infinity Park, Shelton Lock, Chellaston, Boulton Moor, Alvaston, and Raynesway, before reconnecting with Line 1 at The Wyvern.



Line 3 would branch from Line 1 at Willow Row, run through the West End to the University of Derby sites in the Markeaton area, serve the Kedleston Road campus, and continue to a loop around Allestree.



Line 4 would run from The Wyvern and connect with Nottingham Express Transit (NET) at Toton Lane, serving Spondon, Borrowash, Draycott, Breaston, and Long Eaton.



The LRTA expects the majority of the expected 75,000 daily passengers to come from former car users, adding that the shift to tram travel would help ease congestion and rejuvenate Derby city centre.



It added: "A well-designed and well-executed tram system of this scale would be significantly cheaper than the reported £650 million A38 Derby Junctions road scheme, while delivering far greater benefits in terms of economic productivity, accessibility, and environmental performance.



"Modern tram systems are among the most environmentally efficient forms of urban transport.



"Steel wheels running on steel rails have far lower rolling resistance than road vehicles, resulting in inherently low energy consumption.



"When powered by renewable electricity, trams operate with zero tailpipe emissions and avoid the non-exhaust particulate pollution associated with tyre and road wear, which is increasingly recognised as a serious public health issue.



"International experience also shows that trams are particularly effective at encouraging people to switch from car travel."

What do you think about this and do you think it will get any force to happen.

Edited:To include quote from derbyshire live
 
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stevieinselby

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Big, long loops seems like a very inefficient way to run a tram network – what you want is maximum coverage for minimum infrastructure, and linear routes are a better way to achieve that than loops.

If West Yorkshire is still unsure whether it's proposed tram network will be downgraded to buses, then it hardly seems likely that Derby will be on the list any time soon.

This smells more like political posturing, driven by jealousy that Nottingham has trams, and ignoring the fact that its urban area is 3 times the size of Derby's.
 

edwin_m

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Bear in mind this is the Light Rail Transit Association, which basically exists to promote light rail.
 

DDB

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It has been replaced by a computer graphic now but the orginal version of the Derby Live story had the map hand drawn with coloured pens. It could even of been actual crayons. I think that tells us all we need to know!
 

duffield

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If Coventry's VLR (Very Light Rail) experiment is successful I could see a possible case for a more limited system involving Pride Park, Derby station, Derbion and a few other places near the centre. The massive disruption and cost reduction that VLR potentially brings could make a few tram schemes viable. I think there's too much sparsely populated countryside between Derby and Nottingham to make connection the two via tram viable.
 

Nottingham59

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What do you think about this and do you think it will get any force to happen.
There is no way that there is enough traffic on the proposed routes to justify a tram system.

I live in Nottingham and the trams here are a complete waste of space. They keep breaking down, or get hemmed in, or get hit by cars. Any event blocks the whole line. It seems like every week there is a problem on the tram network somewhere and the have to arrange ticket acceptance on the City buses.

Anywhere that thinks it wants trams should install battery trolleybuses, so that they can at least divert off route when necessary. With no need to dig up the streets, and only short lengths of overhead wire in the city centre to recharge.

And fit traffic enforcement cameras so the driver can press a button whenever a car gets into the bus lane or otherwise holds up operations, and issue penalty notices automatically.

Links to 10 BBC stories in 2024 and 2025 with details of tram network failures.


See also:
 

styles

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Derby getting this tram network is about as likely as Altnabreac getting an airport.
 

bluenoxid

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£405m for a 46.5km network or £14m per mile. For urban tram construction, I would call that optimistic, even if the author of these proposals rules out site clearance, planning and design.
 
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Magdalia

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A direct link to the BBC report is here:


A transport group has published a blueprint for a new tram network in Derby.

The plan proposes four lines to link destinations including the city centre, Royal Derby Hospital, Rolls‑Royce, Infinity Park and Nottingham's system.

The Light Rail Transit Association (LRTA) said the scheme, which would cost an estimated £405m, could cut pollution, ease pressure on major road networks and boost regeneration.

It includes a map.

A map with four different coloured lines highlighting places across Derby from Mackworth in the west, Allestree in the north, Sinfin in the south and Borrowash to the East.

Image caption,
The LRTA said a future network could include four lines and connect to trams in Nottingham
 

2001olib

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The only route that would get anywhere near the amount of ridership would be one that connects wyvern/pride park to the city centre then off to the hospital. But then in the real world would trams be cost effective? Would VLR provide enough capacity? Would the money be better spent on bus infrastructure?
 

duffield

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...

I live in Nottingham and the trams here are a complete waste of space.
...
I totally disagree with that. I also live in Nottingham, find the trams very useful, rarely see disruption any worse than any other transport system, and they are often packed, so obviously pretty popular. I'd use them all the time if I lived nearer to a tram stop.

Listing all the tram disruptions gives a totally misleading impression, since disruptions to the tram are often reported by the BBC whereas disruption to the bus service and general road traffic are mostly not reported because they are so frequent. I've been stuck on buses out of town due to traffic accidents for an hour or more on a number of occasions recently and eventually resorted to walking all the way home; traffic around the ring road/A610 junction often comes to a complete standstill while the tram bypasses it. The A610 itself has been totally blocked for many hours (maybe half a day) by two serious accidents recently, and it's all very well to say that unlike the tram there are alternative routes - but those alternatives tend to immediately come to a complete standstill because they just can't handle the extra traffic.
 

Nottingham59

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I totally disagree with that. I also live in Nottingham, find the trams very useful, rarely see disruption any worse than any other transport system,
But the bus network does not grind to a halt when a single vehicle breaks down. Buses just go round the obstacle.

and they are often packed, so obviously pretty popular.
That might be because you only get one every 7 minutes? Though the Buses do get packed too.

I'd use them all the time if I lived nearer to a tram stop.
That is precisely the problem. They can only go where there are special tracks laid at great expense. A proper network of bus-only alignments into and out of the city centre would benefit a far wider proportion of the population.

Listing all the tram disruptions gives a totally misleading impression, since disruptions to the tram are often reported by the BBC whereas disruption to the bus service and general road traffic are mostly not reported because they are so frequent. I've been stuck on buses out of town due to traffic accidents for an hour or more on a number of occasions recently and eventually resorted to walking all the way home; traffic around the ring road/A610 junction often comes to a complete standstill while the tram bypasses it. The A610 itself has been totally blocked for many hours (maybe half a day) by two serious accidents recently, and it's all very well to say that unlike the tram there are alternative routes - but those alternatives tend to immediately come to a complete standstill because they just can't handle the extra traffic.
That only applies if you try to run buses (or trolleybuses) on public roads. I'm all for building separate alignments (like the NET tram has in Market Square or through the Meadows) and dedicated viaducts (like at the station and Lenton Lane). But you don't have to go to the expense and inflexibility of steel wheels on steel rail to get those advantages.

Proper bus lane enforcement and effective bus gates would work just as well as the trams.
 

bib

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Don't imagine any of it will ever happen due to the UK's special super expensive tram construction costs, but in an alternative universe there's probably some routes that would work for something more high-capacity/speed than the current bus system. It probably would be useful to have some sort of alternative access to Pride Park and the city centre from the east, given the queues at busy times, I could envisage most of the central spine of the above 'Line 1' being pretty useful, and it is true that most of the main employment centres are well away from the city centre/train station. Also lots of appartments being built/planned close to the city centre which are largely car free so could be an additional potential user base.

I'd imagine something like (Derby Royal P&R - Kingsway Retail Park - City Centre - Railway Station - Pride Park - Wyvern - Spondon Asda or Raynesway P&R) would pick up plenty of ridership if it could find a off-road/low traffic route. But I think that is another of the main issues, no obvious segragated alignments. No point spending £m++ if it's just going to sit in the same traffic as the buses and cars. Also having to cross the Derwent and railway would be tricky and expensive I'd expect.

I quite like the idea of tram train (City centre - railway station - Rolls Royce Sinfin - Chellaston) given the amount of the proposed development on the southern edge of the city, which is quite a distance from the city centre, but I imagine crossing the railway might be problematic (although there is plenty of room for a flyover if we blow up the non-functioning incinerator and take some land from the defunct Forresters retail car park). Alternatively Normanton has the highest population density in the city so would be an ideal to serve, but routing would be a bit of a nightmare.
 

HSTEd

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That only applies if you try to run buses (or trolleybuses) on public roads. I'm all for building separate alignments (like the NET tram has in Market Square or through the Meadows) and dedicated viaducts (like at the station and Lenton Lane). But you don't have to go to the expense and inflexibility of steel wheels on steel rail to get those advantages.

Proper bus lane enforcement and effective bus gates would work just as well as the trams.
Effective bus gates and enforcement are major ongoing expenses though. They are a lot more expensive on a life cycle basis than deterring cars than having the tram run on rails through pointy concrete blocks or similar.
In the absence of bendy buses, you are also going to run into staff-per-passenger problems, buses struggle to carry as many people per staff hour because of the fundamental limits on their size that trams do not share.
 

Nym

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Combining the Orange and Red routes shown seems to encapsulate all of the largest employers and some of the 'worst served' bus routes and traffic holes so it does seem to be at least slightly sensible.

Also appears to be running segregated for a fair amount of the routes, but...

I do see that new hangar for the swine squadron being built at East Midlands before this happens...
Unless of course some Level Up money is brought in, or Rolls-Royce pays for it to link their two sites.
 

Nottingham59

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I do see that new hangar for the swine squadron being built at East Midlands before this happens...
It might well happen. We now have a mayor for the "East Midlands", but comprising just Derbyshire and Notts, with responsibility for transport.

The political imperative to build a tramline running from Derby to Nottingham will be overwhelming. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
 

Nym

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It might well happen. We now have a mayor for the "East Midlands", but comprising just Derbyshire and Notts, with responsibility for transport.

The political imperative to build a tramline running from Derby to Nottingham will be overwhelming. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
If that where the case it would be politically motivated to travel via Leicstershire as segregated as practicable in Derby, out via Melborne and Castle Donnington to the airport, and extent NET to meet there. Potentially with an overlap around Donnington, East Midlands and the large employment centres there to East Midlands Parkway.
What I don't see is NET making it to Derby, only ever overlapping in the middle.
 

Uncle Buck

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It might well happen. We now have a mayor for the "East Midlands", but comprising just Derbyshire and Notts, with responsibility for transport.

The political imperative to build a tramline running from Derby to Nottingham will be overwhelming. Doesn't make it a good idea though.
I have been to most places in this country, but not Derby or Nottingham, so honest question: how distinct are the two cities? Is there substantial green space between the two?

Looking at the map they appear very close and built up. If that is the case could they not have an amalgamated transport system?
 

NCT

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The Indigo (and its predecessor Rainbow 5) between Long Eaton and Derby has been running a 3bph service for as long as I can remember. Trent Barton tried a Zoom service between Long Eaton and and Derby at 2bph and that was short lived.

There aren’t tram numbers.
 

edwin_m

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I have been to most places in this country, but not Derby or Nottingham, so honest question: how distinct are the two cities? Is there substantial green space between the two?

Looking at the map they appear very close and built up. If that is the case could they not have an amalgamated transport system?
The built-up areas almost merge along the A6005 but that's more a series of adjoining villages than an urban conglomeration. All other routes between the cities pass through several miles of open country. Confusingly much of the bult-up area extending from Nottingham isn't within the city boundary, and some of it (around Long Eaton) isn't even in Nottinghamshire. There are now four trains per hour and multiple frequent bus routes linking the two, but I suspect tram is not a good match in speed, cost or capacity to do the same.
The Indigo (and its predecessor Rainbow 5) between Long Eaton and Derby has been running a 3bph service for as long as I can remember. Trent Barton tried a Zoom service between Long Eaton and and Derby at 2bph and that was short lived.

There aren’t tram numbers.
Indigo runs through to Nottingham and there's also the i4 doing something similar via Stapleford, but few if any will use them for end to end journeys* because the Red Arrow and the train are much faster for that. All of these are well above average quality for UK bus services, so a tram replicating one of three might not improve passenger numbers much, and it certainly wouldn't capture the passengers using the other two.

*bus pass holders excepted - these aren't valid on Red Arrow.
 
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38291018

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The Indigo (and its predecessor Rainbow 5) between Long Eaton and Derby has been running a 3bph service for as long as I can remember. Trent Barton tried a Zoom service between Long Eaton and and Derby at 2bph and that was short lived.

There aren’t tram numbers.
I mean I don't think it's would as I bet it wouldn't been considered however I can see the justification (maney other people will disagree I don't know) for longeaton having trams as its only a short extension needed and run along side the freight line or on a little bit of the track bed from toton lane shown unless it can't go the way I suggested on picture as the land next to it may be a protected nature site or something not sure. But if could take that route you could extend it to this storage site as a terminus.
Then it's just extending it from Long eaton however I don't see them going to derby personally expecially with the small rural section between draycott and borrowash even draycott itself from Breaston side to borrowash side is would only have like 2 stations with draycotts size
 

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styles

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I have been to most places in this country, but not Derby or Nottingham, so honest question: how distinct are the two cities? Is there substantial green space between the two?

Looking at the map they appear very close and built up. If that is the case could they not have an amalgamated transport system?
They're quite different, in that Derby is crap and Nottingham is great :D

Just kidding, but they are distinct.

They are however also really well connected already by train, buses including night buses, and road.

The settlements between the two cities are well-covered by these modes of transport so it's not just city-to-city.

I don't personally feel that a tram link between Nottingham and Derby would pass a cost-benefit analysis, and while there is a regional mayor, the logistics of it would be challenging.
 

DDB

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I'm sure I saw a press story that the East Midlands Mayor is fed up with talk of Derby to Nottingham trams! She has commissioned a study into possible Nottingham tram extensions but I don't think she thinks it is going to come back suggesting extending to Derby and neither do I for the reasons already mentioned.
 

NCT

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Extending NET to Long Eaton Green does seem a no brainer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They're quite different, in that Derby is crap and Nottingham is great :D
This statement is indisputably true.
 

Nottingham59

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I have been to most places in this country, but not Derby or Nottingham, so honest question: how distinct are the two cities? Is there substantial green space between the two?
There's about 5 miles of open countryside between the edge of Derby and the beginning of the Nottingham conurbation.

In "conurbation" I include:
  • the towns of Ilkeston, Sandiacre and Long Eaton (which are in Derbyshire, but in borough of Erewash.)
  • sttlements of Beeston, Stapleford, Kimberley and Eastwood, (which are in Nottinghamshire but in the Borough of Broxtowe)
  • Then then Nottingham City itself.
Within this conurbation there are various small areas of Green Belt which have so far stopped these areas merging.

Looking at the map they appear very close and built up. If that is the case could they not have an amalgamated transport system?
An amalgamated transport system would be great. But not tram technology. Too expensive and inflexible for a city the size of Derby, and too slow and capacity-limited for a conurbation the size of Greater Nottingham.

EDIT: Openstreetmap of Nottm-Derby1767906292879.png
 

edwin_m

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This is sacrilege. Anything west of the river Erewash is most certainly not part of Nottinghams' conurbation.
A conurbation is a continuous built up area and that isn't affected by how it is split up administratively.
 

Mikey C

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Trams will come to Derby once HS2 reaches Toton...
 
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