That’s not screamingly clear… as in no trains west at all, to South Wales or Cornwall?
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Storm Goretti disruption - 8/9 January 2026
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Maybe lots of people do , but I would suggest as many people do often as seen on these forums bemoan instances of trains being stranded for 2 or 3 hours, in the case of the hope valley during the current weather forecast it is not unreasonable to suggest that you risk trains being stranded even longer , possibly even overnight if things get so bad.
A lot of those procedures for degraded working require staff to get out on the ground to assist setting up or operating these methods of work which is precisely the issue. Not sure what rules for degraded working you think could apply to keep trains moving if the signallers at Edale & Earles , possibly even Chinley can't get to work for their night shifts.
Also all this talk about dumping units here there and everywhere ignores the fact that those units also have crew , if you did operate in the way you suggest you have a huge risk of ending up with sheffield and Manchester crews stranded over the wrong sides of the penines with no practical way of getting them back home. Sure you can put them up in hotels or what not. But that won't be great when you then need to start up services the following day this extending disruption.
Planning that the infastructure won't be available after a certain time and ammending diagrams well in advance
Besides which everybody knows that passengers won't pay attention to "maybe we wont be able to run your train" sorts of warnings , people think it wont happen to them and when it does that some poor overwhelmed member of station staff should be able to produce a miracle to get them home.
If the weather does turn out not to be as bad as predicted then of course things should continue to run, which is where I do think I agree with some of the criticism of how these things are managed, but as we have seen in the past this is quite often a modern problem with the reason being given that "trains weren't loaded into the system".
And if you had worked in the industry for well over a decade as other people on this forum have then you would understand that just because things used to be done one way doesn't mean we just continue blindly doing them that way, there have been huge shifts in apetite of risk towards things like stranded trains , earthworks management and operations during extreme weather in many cases driven by experiences during previous extreme weather events. Given the fact that extreme weather events seem to only be becoming more and more frequent I suspect things like this are here to stay.
Snow1964
Established Member
Here is latest wind situation, at the moment centre of a low (which so far is not very deep) is about 250 miles off the coast of Cornwall.
Colours are wind speed in knots, scale at bottom
might need to open link twice to avoid a pop up about updates
Colours are wind speed in knots, scale at bottom
might need to open link twice to avoid a pop up about updates
Sorry, I tried to quote the full post.
However, regarding stranded trains. The TOC’s and Network Rail are quite rightly all over this, it’s one of the hottest topics, in TOC / NR controls. There have been so many high profile incidents and it just isn’t acceptable anymore (not that it should have been). We have designated people to look entirely at stranded trains to ease the pressure on other control staff so they can deal with everything else but when you introduce a number of stranded trains it becomes impossible.
However, there was recent a fatality in my area and a number of passengers started to self-evacuate almost immediately. We can not be seen to normalise this.
It might have been a number of “rogue” passengers but it hampered the initial incident being dealt with. Passengers have now got wise to the concept of self evacuation unfortunately.
Falcon1200
Established Member
People will object when they have to wait ages for a delayed train.
They will object when that train becomes stranded in the middle of nowhere.
They will object when they are eventually evacuated, to another train or more likely onto the track.
They will object when they have to walk over snow-covered ballast, rails, cables and other obstructions to an access point.
They will object when they have to wait at that access point for, hopefully, some form of onward transport.
What is the alternative when an Amber warning is in issued? I have been on duty in Control when we started running a service in such conditions, only for multiple incidents to occur, utterly overwhelming the available staff, both outside and in Control.
The risk is not only to passengers but also staff who are sent out in dreadful conditions to deal with incidents. That risk cannot be ignored.
How many service alterations are pre-planned, dependant on whatever time normal operation becomes impossible, and by who?!! Also, implemented by who? Not Control, who will already be snowed under (sorry) with the incidents occurring during severe weather.
Snow1964
Established Member
You would think if staff are expected to work at difficult locations, at altitude, would be a basic expectation of fitting all season or winter tyres, or knowledge of how to put on snow chains.
Common sense says if you job is in difficult locations, you make sure your transport to/from work can cope. After all paid to be there.
Both crews in wrong end at same time, shouldn't really affect start up, and could always swap at a crossing point later to get back to normal. This is more a case of inconvenience and requires some thinking by managers, than is impossible.
Is it easier to plan in advance (when have to get everything amended to work like clockwork), than wait and see and alter as necessary (which could be no changes in the event)
Ever heard of the story of the boy who cried wolf. This is no longer treated as an exceptional weather event once every five years, that people heed. Railway has gone into cotton wool announcing, so frequently, multiple times a year, that like all the other excessive announcements, just causes people to switch out and ignore them.
Again the emphasis is on excessive warnings, so being ignored by public, warnings given on a maybe basis, rather than freak once a decade need to take action.
So are you saying the railway is no longer run by managers, and staff trying to provide a service, but by some overriding risk management supremo who dictates when to disrupt normal service in advance
which is a sad approach, no wartime spirit, just wimp out at slightest sniff of potential (not definite) pending difficult conditions.
On GWR's website, the warning is under the heading "Cancellations to services between Oxford and Hereford". I take it to mean it only applies to the Cotswold line.
Maybe those decision makers are providing strong support for staff and customers alike by putting a plan together instead of winging it?
Hopefully they’ll be getting everyone home safely and avoiding a massive overload of stranded people and resources including emergency responders.
Or maybe you’d prefer unpredictability and chaos?
I don't think you understand the nature of the Hope Valley. Once the roads close they are closed, snow chains or otherwise.
Snake Pass (A57) was closed yesterday by Derbyshire Police due to (separate) poor weather conditions.
The resignalling lost a bit of resilience in that regard, Edale box can be switched out (closed with signals cleared and the box unstaffed for the layman) and often is during really bad weather, you used to be able to do the same with Earles with the points set for the main lines but now it's the fringe box to York it is no longer possible.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The BBC TV news this morning had a reporter stood outside at St Ives saying what were the very high wind speeds currently over the Isles of Scilly are soon to be expected in the south of Cornwall (a county with a good number of branch lines) and our local BBC North-West TV morning programme stated what was goiung to happen today with the rail services on the Hope Valley line between Manchester and Sheffield. so hopefully, many viewers would now be aware of the situation on that line.
With Manchester in mind, has there been any news about the Buxton line service?
With Manchester in mind, has there been any news about the Buxton line service?
The UK has become far too risk averse. Weather warnings are almost a weekly event but I just crack on as normal. Given how busy the roads are, thousands of other people do the same. I look forward to photos of foot deep snow tomorrow.
Appears that WMR services between Birmingham New Street and Hereford will be suspended after 1440. Appears to be proactive thinking by WMR and Network Rail.
Storm Goretti - Travel Advice
www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Taken from:
Storm Goretti travel disruption
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Give me a scenario that would see trains stranded overnight, assuming services are brought to a stop before snow reaches a critical level?
Signaller fails to arrive - previous signaller stays on shift to clear the backlog (which, given the fact it takes around 30 mins to get from Dore to Stockport, would mean at maximum an hour of overtime when you take into account the need to shut up the box etc).
For scenarios other than a signaller not turning in, you can pass a signal at danager, introduce extended block working or authorise a wrong direction move all between driver and signaller. Various rule book updates have removed the need for any additional staff.
I specifically described exactly how you could get all crew home utilising various other routes, and of course, taxis always remain an option.
Also a little dramatic - dumping units here there and everywhere would look as follows in the absolute worst case scenario:
EMR: 3 units in Liverpool, NT one unit displaced in Sheffield, TPE up to 2 units wrong location for close of play but with various options to get them back to the right side of the pennines.
Its hardly "here there and everywhere".
24 hours isn't long enough to amend diagrams in the conventional sense - train planning don't work that close to the wire, manning agreements will prevent rosters from moving people miles off their jobs. The reality is closing the routes at this timescale will still result in a fair chunk of work for traincrew supervisors and control desks - I'll agree they're granted more time to get their head around the issue however.
In the same way that some people won't read the "do not travel" and "no trains after x time" warning?
In reality, with the weather forecast to be what it is, loads will likely be lighter anyway leaving mainly those who rely more on the railways.
Here here.
Its the risk appetite I strongly disagree with - as an industry we've become too risk averse, to the point that it prevents us delivering to our customers when they rely on us the most. I'm aware it has changed, yes, but I hark back to the old ways because they worked and we kept people moving, rather than this new approach of throw the towel in and let people fend for themselves.
I worked on the frontline at a major inter-regional express TOC covering around 300 miles on my route card (end to end) back in the days when we just kept things running. I expereinced some pretty severe weather disruption days and every time we got the units, me and my colleagues home. I've never needed to short notice lodge and never heard of it during that period - so when it does happen, we're really talking very few and far between occurances.
I will, however, concede that on an electrified network, planned curtailing of services does make sense as a stranded EMU is a far, far more likely, when weather makes OHLE vulnerable. Being trapped without power is a very different ball game.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
This.
Unfortunately we now live in a society where an increasing number of entitled people think that they know best, that following rules is - at best - optional, and that they can and should challenge authority at every possible opportunity.
In the snippet you’ve posted has no reference to either of those routes at all so not sure why it’s “not clear”
This refers to the North Cotswolds branch; trains to Hereford / Worcester will gradually be curtailed to Great Malvern / Oxford respectively.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Buxton line is shut after 6pm too.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
When I read the end of this posting, it took me back to my folk-singing days in the 1960s and The Spinners version of "Manchester Rambler" which made mention of "Wading through three feet of snow"
Angmering1974
On Moderation
(edit: off topic)
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You can fit whatever tyres you want to your car , indeed even mandate ownerhip of a 4X4 and carrying of snow chains.
But that won't matter when the police close the roads.
It is rarely if ever a nice balanced stranding of crews and units though that is the problem.
I am saying that the duty holders on the infastructure operators side do apply more caution to situations that could see staff or passengers stranded in the middle of an area that could quickly become inaccessible by road.
Yeah , times have changed. Those that hold a duty of care rightly exercise a bit more caution these days instead of just going with the "wartime spirit" . Get with it.
The normal sorts of infastructure or unit failts that occur on an almost weekly basis on the hope valley, coupled with the issues caused by icicles in the longer tunnels on the route and the potential they might damage a train.
It is all good and well saying we stop running trains when snow reaches a critical level , we can't just switch the snow on and off though . So if a unit does decide its going to set down in the middle of the route and it can't be got going again before the snow does reach a critical level then you have an issue , bear in mind a critical level for the railway and a critical level for the roads to start getting closed is massively different. Roads will be unpassable long before the railway reaches 6 or 8 inches above the railhead.
There are scenarios that happen again on an almost weekly basis when you can't just "pass a signal at danger" set a train back or whatever, likewise you make it sound like putting extended block working or whatever in place is just a quick phone call and job done, it isn't .
Yeah , but look at recent incidents caused by issues with earthworks , flooding etc. It is completely understandable to me and many others why the duty holders in these particular situations are exercising increased caution.
This "we got on with it and everyone got home" attitude is just seen as far too old fashioned and just winging it aint really professional tbh.
This plan of just run until you cant run and put a footnote warning people that you might have to stop running at a time is what ends up with loads of people turning up for trains you can't then run and kicking off.
As someone who used to work on the Manchester to Sheffield route. When the weather gets really bad, taxi drivers do NOT take the jobs incase they took also get stuck on the wrong side of the Pennines, or worse mid-route.
The direct routes between Manchester and Sheffield (Snake Pass and Woodhead Pass) close frequently when the weather gets bad. As I mentioned in a previous post, the Woodhead route will close at 8pm tonight.
S101
Member
I hope for the railways reputation, and credibility that there is some snow of biblical proportions.
notspy
Member
Worst case scenario is that a train gets stranded at a station such as Edale, and if the roads are completely impassable, how are you to evacuate hundreds of passengers safely? An amber weather warning means there is a "potential threat to life", not that it's guaranteed but do you really want to take that chance? The Met Office has issued that warning for a reason, and if trains continued and passengers and staff got harmed or stranded, which is very possible if the weather is as predicted, then the backlash will be a lot worse than closing the line for a day and a half.
What I'm getting at here is we're talking about relatively benign, forecast weather. So with foresight and good management, we should be able to run a service until said weather materialises without getting into a situation where trains are stranded. I'm not suggesting just sending trains headfirst into snowdrifts and hoping for the best.
I think fatalities must be some of the hardest incidents to deal with and I absolutely sympathise with the staff involved in these situations.
You could hypothesize worst case scenarios every day of the week - if you did, you'd never do anything.
If the risk is managed and reviewed on the day, you could absolutely avoid that situation.
Read my original post again, I’m in complete agreement about passengers not being stranded. The industry are absolutely all over it.
What I’m saying in reference to a recent fatality in my area, is that some passengers started self-evacuating after just 15-20 minutes. That is not acceptable passenger behaviour now matter how awful the situation and how can TOC’s / NR manage that?!
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The problem is that crisis management is now so poor on the railways that passengers have no faith in the staff to look after them. We've seen it several times recently where passengers have ended up being stranded on trains for hours longer than necessary because, quite simply, it was operationally more convenient for the railway to leave them there. It happened recently at Euston where a train was sent into a platform which was too short to accommodate it yet passengers were physically prevented from exiting through a local door.
I do sympathise with staff in these situations, there are now too few staff to manage everything and communicating with passengers is right at the bottom of the list of priorities- and for completely understandable reasons.
But if you keep passengers trapped in a busy train and don't communicate with them, especially if that busy train has no power and so the air conditioning and the toilets don't work, then passengers will self-egress. And, in my opinion, passengers self-egressing shows that the industry has failed to manage the situation properly.
There is a wide ocean between cancelling all trains on Friday because some snow might happen, and allowing the situation to deteriorate to such an extent that a train gets stranded in a snowdrift.
That's where my objections are. At this stage, and this far out, there is simply no excuse for cancelling everything on Friday. The snow might arrive tonight, or it might not. It is more likely than not that it will arrive, but the Met Office still aren't sure precisely where and still aren't sure precisely how much. But why the hurry to make the decision for Friday? Why not wait and see if the snow does arrive on Thursday evening first.
Communication is key. If passengers don't know what is happening and don't know how long something will take then they will self-egress, especially if the train is very close to a station platform and especially if the power to the train has been cut.
The behaviour may or may not be acceptable, it depends on your perspective, but crisis management is all about understanding how people will behave, not how they should behave. If passengers are self-egressing in an uncontrolled manner then the industry quite simply hasn't managed the situation properly.
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