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Storm Goretti disruption - 8/9 January 2026

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muz379

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Probably true of the Hope Valley if it is that bad, yes. Of Flowery Field (OK, 500m from Hyde North), Newton, Godley, Hattersley*, Dinting, Glossop and Hadfield, which are in effect outer suburbs of Manchester? Though to be fair I don't fancy the road down from Mottram towards Glossop in snow/ice, I suspect it'll be like bumper cars... :)

I was TBF thinking more of the hope valley and high peak .

But TBF I wouldn't fancy trying to get a Pway or OLE team upto dinting or beyond if things do get as bad as forecast either.

And of course the signaller at dinting has to be able to get to and from work .

Shame there's nowhere else along the line trains can conveniently turn back from I guess.

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Yes, they did the same thing in Cumbria a couple of weeks ago.

It was so wet that Network Rail couldn’t possibly allow trains to run. Apparently their staff couldn’t get to incidents, or something. But it was so bad that, er, Stagecoach managed to run a full bus service.
Perhaps

But we both know that it's likely roads and therefore busses will be disrupted at least across the hope valley and high peak if this one is as bad as suggested.
 
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Killingworth

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I have lived beside the Hope Valley line for over 50 years and can understand why Network Rail are playing safe tomorrow afternoon, evening and on Friday. Users are fed up with cancellations and delayed trains but being trapped on a train marooned in a snow drift or stranded in a 3 mile tunnel is a prospect best avoided.

To those expecting alternative road transport I suspect they haven't driven the Snake Pass, Winnats Pass, Woodhead or via Sparrowpit in ice and snow. The black ice this morning was bad enough.

Of course it was easier when there was a solid steam locomotive to crash through icicles in the tunnels. Pictures of those can be found for those who do web searches. Today a snow plough can clear drifts and smash the icicles but they very quickly form again. Running modern DMUs is far more hazardous. Snow and ice in remote points and mechanical signalling adds further risk.

Network Rail are running 2 double ploughs on the west side and another from Doncaster. I suspect they will have been over cautious but knowing the Peak District it can be a problem one side of Totley or Cowburn Tunnel and not the other. This in 2010 when the line was closed for about 3 days - looked reasonably fine here at Dore.

1767817905990.jpeg
 

pokemonsuper9

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Could be. Can a train turn back at Guide Bridge or does it have to go off to Rose Hill etc?
I don't think there's any way for an EMU to. Stalybridge would probably be the best option (crew permitting obviously)

DMUs could in theory turn in the Freightliner Yard but I doubt they're cleared or trained for it, alternatively there appears to be a bi-di section between Hyde Central and Woodley too.
 

CaptainHaddock

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No, that’s not what it means. From the Met Office:



The last 6 words being key.

Weather warnings such as this by their nature have to cover a wide area, and can’t deal with the intircacies of very local affects.

The weather forecast supplied to the Railway today shows potentially 30-40cm of snow, locally, in the area of the Hope Valley line between 1200 tomorrow and 0600 Friday, with most of that falling overnight. This is the worst weather in the whole country, equalled only by parts of mid-Wales. Clearly the forecast could be wrong. But given that is the best forecast available, from the professionals; it is wise to take heed.
The word "potentially" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your post. Obviously it's sensible to be aware of the...ahem... potential risk but surely train services should run based on what actually does happen rather than what might happen?

As with previous storm warnings, the most customer friendly statement a TOC can make would be to say "we will run the best service we possibly can but please be aware that there may be delays or cancellations and you may not be able complete your journey". That way no one can say they weren't warned and anyone unwilling to take the risk can postpone their journey.
 

Bikeman78

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Therein lies the problem. People will get in cars, will crash them, and to some measure might end up injured or worse...if we're going to be suggesting people stay at home, then we probably need a more all-industries Governmental approach (i.e. officially telling businesses they can't sack people for not getting in and suggesting they might want to shut down for the day if that's feasible), though I know many on here would oppose it. Because if people will get sacked if they stay at home, then they aren't going to do so, regardless of what risk it might involve.

(Office workers who can work from home already will be, of course, why would you subject yourself to that disruption?)
I agree. I wouldn't drive if I didn't think it safe to cycle. For the record, I rode to work during the beast from the east in 2018. Driving would have been impossible owing to drifts.

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And NS (Nederlandse Spoorwegen) have been running a reduced service yesterday & today due to a ‘bit of snow’.
Bring back the 1964 stock! I bet the Dutch are still out on their bikes.
 

Russel

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Here's a question, if this turns out to be nowhere near as bad as predicted, which can and does happen, what are the chances of operators that have pre-cancelled services, reinstating services?
 

Angmering1974

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Met office advice: "It is safer not to drive in these conditions, but if you need to make an essential journey, consider alternative forms of transport"

Haha I presume they aren't referring to trains
 

Starmill

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Hope Valley is shut from Thursday 18:00 until Saturday;

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/storm-goretti-tpe-20260107/ - "Due to the forecast given, you cannot travel between Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield in either direction after 18:00 on Thursday 8 January, and all day on Friday 9 January because there will no trains running and no replacement buses."
This information isn't terribly clear unfortunately. Trains must be clear by 1800, as the line will be impassable later if Network Rail instruct their signalling shift not to report for work. Many last services will accordingly be up to two hours before 1800.

Expect a mess. And if you're travelling, depart at the earliest possible time.
The thing is, though, that trains will run. You can guarantee freight will run, possibly with diversions in place.

The reality is that, time and again, this approach taken by TOCs is less about safety and more about the inconvenience of trying to move people when the advertised timetable can't be delivered, reflecting the operational inflexibility of the railway in 2025 (eg: incompatible coupling of rolling stock, limited crew route knowledge restricting options to divert, overly rigid unit plans giving little scope to recover the following days schedule if units are out of place).

Employers wouldn't expect people not to turn in because of an amber weather warning, the railway shouldn't use this as an excuse to stop delivering.
I would expect Peak Forest freight to take a hit to be honest. If the 'boxes beyond New Mills shut, there's nothing for it unfortunately.
 
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Killingworth

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This information isn't terribly clear unfortunately. Trains must be clear by 1800, as the line will be impassable later if Network Rail instruct their signalling shift not to report for work. Many last services will accordingly be up to two hours before 1800.

Expect a mess. And if you're travelling, depart at the earliest possible time.

I would expect Peak Forest freight to take a hit to be honest. If the 'boxes beyond New Mills shut, there's nothing for it unfortunately.
Boxes at Edale and Earles can be very difficult to reach if drifting snow is blocking narrow roads.

If trains can run I should imagine freight would be easier to move as it's not so time sensitive and no passengers to worry about.
 

Starmill

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officially telling businesses they can't sack people for not getting in
Technically this is already true and has been for a long time. The employer must grant emergency leave if there's risk to life and limb involved otherwise - this plainly meets that threshold up in the hills.

Of course that doesn't mean some employers aren't remiss in their duties.
 

Russel

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I've just checked National Rail for XC related disruption over the next couple of days...

"There is also a reduction in service on the Nottingham - Birmingham New Street / Cardiff Central route from 15:00 on Thursday 8 January."

So, service as normal it is then.
 

londonmidland

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The thing with this upcoming storm is that it will deliver very strong winds, heavy rain and potentially disruptive amounts of snowfall. It's a forecasting nightmare as there are still constant north and south movements in regard to the snow and rain boundary, however its looking likely that somewhere the Midlands will see significant snowfall amounts.

With all this said, its possible that there will be widespread disruption across much of the rail network, with further 'Do Not Travel' messages issued. One to keep a very close eye on.
 

Horizon22

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My partner remarked that the weather is so unpredictable these days. I replied that at least we know it's going to be unpredictable....

On the contrary, weather forecasting is massively improved from even just 10-15 years.
 

nilvaj395

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Here we go again, Northern and TPE throwing in the towel at the mere possibility of severe weather. According to the current Met Office forecast, Edale (normally the worst affected station) can expect light snow overnight Thursday then a mainly dry albeit cold day on Friday. Hardly extreme weather!
That was my exact reaction. Unironically, I was planning a trip that way for tommorow before I even knew a storm existed.

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I wonder how the likes of Stagecoach / others who run the buses that way are thinking about this. According to TfGM only delays are being anticipated, not the towel being thrown in.
"Bus services could be delayed due to severe weather conditions. If you need to travel during peak hours, please plan your journey before you travel and allow more time for your journey."
 
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tumbledown

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Meanwhile the forecast for Glossop is 15mph winds and continuous precipitation from 2000 to 0400, with temperatures including windchill down to -6c.
 

YorksLad12

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Things to remember while using phrases like “Northern putting their feet up”… how do train crew get around? What are platforms and approach roads like? (Hint: not as gritted as you’d expect). Is it “safe”?

Yes, there may be buses running (and sliding on ice) but they won’t be running on untreated estate roads. They can turn and find alternative routes; trains can’t. And you, the passenger, still have to negotiate the walk home. I’m sure we’ve all done the walk through snow down or up a steep hill the bus can’t handle.

I’d rather operators proactively cancelled things than carry on regardless. Wouldn’t you? Really?
 

Russel

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Things to remember while using phrases like “Northern putting their feet up”… how do train crew get around? What are platforms and approach roads like? (Hint: not as gritted as you’d expect). Is it “safe”?

Yes, there may be buses running (and sliding on ice) but they won’t be running on untreated estate roads. They can turn and find alternative routes; trains can’t. And you, the passenger, still have to negotiate the walk home. I’m sure we’ve all done the walk through snow down or up a steep hill the bus can’t handle.

I’d rather operators proactively cancelled things than carry on regardless. Wouldn’t you? Really?

I'd put money on my Tesco and Amazon order still turning up tomorrow!
 

nilvaj395

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Things to remember while using phrases like “Northern putting their feet up”… how do train crew get around? What are platforms and approach roads like? (Hint: not as gritted as you’d expect). Is it “safe”?
I feel like there is a fairly obvious solution, and it's being prepared and taking action rather than giving up. The roads could be equally well taken care of and gritted if there wasn't a lack of funding across the board in everything. You could alternatively make winter or all-season tires a legal requirement in winter like some European countries do.

For sake of comparison, yesterday the Netherlands had an IT outage and really bad snow at the same time, but was able to restart the trains around 10:00. Today at the current time now there is a full coverage of service across the country, even if it is at around 60% punctuality. It really makes the difference between a railway that is important and one that is seen as an inferior form of transport.
 
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fishwomp

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Boxes at Edale and Earles can be very difficult to reach if drifting snow is blocking narrow roads.
If only there were railway lines next to signal boxes so that a relieving signalman could use the railway to get to work.. - assuming they are able to drive/walk to some safer start place of course.
 

Russel

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If only there were railway lines next to signal boxes so that a relieving signalman could use the railway to get to work.. - assuming they are able to drive/walk to some safer start place of course.

Crazy idea, it'll never catch on.
 

D1511

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I feel like there is a fairly obvious solution, and it's being prepared and taking action rather than giving up. The roads could be equally well taken care of and gritted if there wasn't a lack of funding across the board in everything.

For sake of comparison, yesterday the Netherlands had an IT outage and really bad snow at the same time, but was able to restart the trains around 10:00. Today at the current time now there is a full coverage of service across the country, even if it is at around 60% punctuality. It really makes the difference between a railway that is important and one that is seen as an inferior form of transport.
Indeed. For the benefit of others, here's the translated email text sent to NS customers after yesterday's problems

"Dear traveler,

This morning, no NS train traffic was possible throughout the Netherlands. The cause was a combination of the large number of switching failures and an additional IT failure. We understand that this has caused a lot of inconvenience and find this very annoying for our travellers.

Winter schedule 7 January
The winter weather is expected to continue. That is why the winter schedule will also apply tomorrow, January 7. This means that fewer NS trains run on a number of routes. The winter schedule provides more space on the track, so that possible problems can be solved more quickly.

Amsterdam Region
Additional restrictions in the train service are expected tomorrow in the Amsterdam region, due to the many switching failures. This means that even fewer trains will run here.

The next few days
Winter weather is also expected for the rest of the week and there is a good chance that the winter schedule will remain in force. We therefore recommend that you consult the NS travel planner for the rest of the week before departure.

Sincerely,
Bertien van Baak
Director of Commerce


Note the use of 'winter schedule' rather than just saying it's too hard to run any trains.......
 
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nilvaj395

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Indeed. For the benefit of others, here's the translated email text sent to NS customers after yesterday's problems

"Dear traveler,

This morning, no NS train traffic was possible throughout the Netherlands. The cause was a combination of the large number of switching failures and an additional IT failure. We understand that this has caused a lot of inconvenience and find this very annoying for our travellers.

Winter schedule 7 January
The winter weather is expected to continue. That is why the winter schedule will also apply tomorrow, January 7. This means that fewer NS trains run on a number of routes. The winter schedule provides more space on the track, so that possible problems can be solved more quickly.

Amsterdam Region
Additional restrictions in the train service are expected tomorrow in the Amsterdam region, due to the many switching failures. This means that even fewer trains will run here.

The next few days
Winter weather is also expected for the rest of the week and there is a good chance that the winter schedule will remain in force. We therefore recommend that you consult the NS travel planner for the rest of the week before departure.

Sincerely,
Bertien van Baak
Director of Commerce



Note the use of 'winter schedule' rather than just saying it's too hard to run any trains.......
Thanks for putting it in, even so with the 'winter schedule' a look at the map on TreinPosities shows there is quite a healthy amount of traffic even for this time of night (11-12pm).
 

Bletchleyite

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Things to remember while using phrases like “Northern putting their feet up”… how do train crew get around? What are platforms and approach roads like? (Hint: not as gritted as you’d expect). Is it “safe”?

It was safe to operate to Lancaster during the last one of these, because TPE were doing so.

Northern didn't, and I found that unacceptable. The result was Lancaster, which wasn't affected by any severe weather, having three trains that day. Even if it had been totally impossible to get a 195 up there to shuttle to Preston and back to connect onto the Blackpools and a few drivers and guards*, a RRB would have been perfectly safe, though I suppose in reality a refund and potentially as low as a pound for the service bus (Lancashire County Council presently subsidise £1 fares in the evening and on Sunday in the whole County) might have been preferable if a bus journey was involved.

If you check that thread you'll note I didn't criticise them for initially failing to operate past Lancaster, it was failing to operate TO Lancaster which wasn't in the amber warning area I criticised them for, and secondarily in not starting up for a further day, which was alleged by some, me included, to be because they were going to struggle to get the crews out on that Sunday and it was less bad publicity to be shut down due to "weather" than due to the perennial Sunday problem manifesting itself in yet another December.

* It wasn't something silly like Preston-Lancaster only being signed by Barrow crews, was it, as Barrow depot was in the amber warning area and thus not accessible for units and crews? If it was, someone needs their head banging against a metaphorical brick wall for the lack of resilience planning in that.

Yes, there may be buses running (and sliding on ice) but they won’t be running on untreated estate roads. They can turn and find alternative routes; trains can’t. And you, the passenger, still have to negotiate the walk home. I’m sure we’ve all done the walk through snow down or up a steep hill the bus can’t handle.

I’d rather operators proactively cancelled things than carry on regardless. Wouldn’t you? Really?

In some cases they should cancel and in some cases they should not, however they should not be held responsible for me once I am off their premises in any way shape or form. What they should be is poised and ready to get going again as soon as it's proven safe. They are probably justified in issuing a Do Not Travel for a longer period, but not in taking the easy option to operate nothing throughout that period if it becomes safe enough to operate sooner. The service should be restored as soon as it is safe and practicable to do so with regard to the reason for its suspension. Last time that didn't happen for Northern, but it did for Avanti (normally enthusiastic to pull north of Preston when someone sneezes on the WCML) and TPE, and many suspect, as do I, that that was because of issues getting guards to volunteer, and thus that the communication on why they didn't when TPE and Avanti did was more than a little, shall we say, obfuscatory and avoiding of embarrassment.

Of course, if that was the reason perhaps we'll see the Hadfields run back up as soon as Network Rail reopen the line on Friday. It will be interesting to see. I'd agree that the Hope Valley is likely to be a much bigger problem if the promised snow does all materialise, though if it doesn't then it applies to that too.
 

D1511

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Thanks for putting it in, even so with the 'winter schedule' a look at the map on TreinPosities shows there is quite a healthy amount of traffic even for this time of night (11-12pm).
Yes, the 'winter schedule' is still a very decent service, and that's the point.
Here's an extract from Monday's email to passengers setting out what to expect from the winter schedule...
More snow is expected tomorrow, January 6th, in much of the Netherlands. As a result, there is a greater chance of switching failures. We want to offer our travellers a reliable and safe journey. That is why the winter schedule comes into force on Tuesday 6 January.

What does this mean for your trip?
This means that fewer NS trains run on a number of routes, which means that in some cases you will have to change trains more often, be on the road longer or trains are busier than usual. Where possible, we extend the trains to offer more space. On almost all routes, NS runs at least two trains per hour, sometimes four times per hour.

At ProRail, additional snow and breakdown teams are ready to solve switching failures. Despite the precautions taken, trains may fail or delays may occur. NS and ProRail are working hard to resolve any issues as quickly as possible.

Travel well informed
We advise you to consult the NS travel planner shortly before departure or to enable notifications in the NS app. Especially during rush hour, take into account longer travel times and crowds. Trains can also leave at a different time than you are used to.

Sincerely,

Bertien van Baak
Director of Commerce

So still 2-4 tph on most lines.
 
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Bletchleyite

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You do get things like that in the UK but not everywhere. For example there is the south WCML "emergency two track timetable" which removes the Tring semifasts and one of each of Manchester and Birmingham to thin things out a bit. You also sometimes break things at Northampton where there's a problem one side of it to prevent knock-on, so the service on the unaffected side can continue per the timetable and the other side can be a little more ad-hoc.
 

Horizon22

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You do get things like that in the UK but not everywhere. For example there is the south WCML "emergency two track timetable" which removes the Tring semifasts and one of each of Manchester and Birmingham to thin things out a bit.

Every Network Rail route will have contingency plans to be applied for various infrastructure failures or lines blocked for other reasons.
 

D1511

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........as long as the other reasons don't include snowfall, apparently.
 

Horizon22

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........as long as the other reasons don't include snowfall, apparently.

If you're closing the line completely, there aren't many options other than running either side to the point of obstruction (as far as feasibly possible).
 

Bletchleyite

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I've created a speculative thread to discuss an idea I had to make these increasingly common periods of disruption a bit less of a pain for passengers:

 
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