Linking UK airports by rail

[michael8]

No, but it's a much more developed concept than HS4Air.

Home - Heathrow Southern Railway

heathrowrail.com

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Southern-Rail-Access-to-Heathrow-Feasibility-Study.pdf

It was estimated at £1.7bn in 2016/17 - even factoring even inflation is far cheaper than HS4Air.

Thank you so much - good info ! I suppose after 10 years that price will have inflated significantly. If I remember correctly, HS4Air was a response to a DfT call for privately-funded proposals, so its cost is not really anyone's concern

 

[Mgameing123]

The change is as simple as getting off anywhere in the core and waiting for a few minutes. However I’m very glad this was enough to put you off one of the most absurdly wasteful flights that exists in the UK.

It’s not really wasteful considering that it’s the only reasonable way to get to Manchester from London since Avanti always cancel their trains.

 

[edwin_m]

If I remember correctly, HS4Air was a response to a DfT call for privately-funded proposals, so its cost is not really anyone's concern

It wouldn't be commercially viable and private funders aren't charities, so taxpayers and/or passengers will end up paying. And the amount they end up paying will depend on how much it costs to build and operate.

 

[zwk500]

Billions spent on Crossrail, Thameslink, new tube lines in the past but never a NW/SE direct link!!

Crossrail & Thameslink were about serving London itself, not purely for Heathrow.

It’s not really wasteful considering that it’s the only reasonable way to get to Manchester from London since Avanti always cancel their trains.

It is completely wasteful when you consider that Avanti are cancelling only around 6.3% of trains. That's about 6.2% higher than it should be, but still hardly 'always'.

 

[NCT]

Heathrow might be dragged screaming and kicking to pay for Southern Access with airlines grudgingly paying increased charges to pay for it. The same happening with HS4Air? No chance.

 

[z444z]

It’s not really wasteful considering that it’s the only reasonable way to get to Manchester from London since Avanti always cancel their trains.

Huge exaggeration. Not to mention various other train routes taking no more than an hour longer than Avanti, multiple coach operators, driving.

 

[camflyer]

So HS1 to Paddington or Farringdon is not a fast journey if it requires change of train at St Pancras. And the initial point was HS4Air would open up the south east (Sussex, Surrey, etc) to Heathrow, not to Paddington or Farringdon.

As far as I've seen there are no proposed stations for HS4Air between Heathrow and Gatwick so it's ability to improve connections for Surrey and Sussex would be very limited.

The Heathrow Southern Access plan sounds a lot more useful in creating connections via Woking, Clapham Junction and Waterloo to the whole region.

 

[michael8]

Billions spent on Crossrail, Thameslink, new tube lines in the past but never a NW/SE direct link!! Clearly I wouldn't fly MAN/LHR to get to the south coast, although I have (and consider it in the future) used MAN/SOU to get to Isle of Wight, Bournemouth etc simply because the cross country trains are so slow, expensive and cramped. Could go via London I suppose, but this is speculative discussion so I speculate we need better cross-country trains to take people (like me) away from airplanes!!

HS4Air would solve all your connectability problems

 

[zwk500]

Billions spent on Crossrail, Thameslink, new tube lines in the past but never a NW/SE direct link!! Clearly I wouldn't fly MAN/LHR to get to the south coast, although I have (and consider it in the future) used MAN/SOU to get to Isle of Wight, Bournemouth etc simply because the cross country trains are so slow, expensive and cramped. Could go via London I suppose, but this is speculative discussion so I speculate we need better cross-country trains to take people (like me) away from airplanes!!

HS4Air would solve all your connectability problems

How?

 

[michael8]

Purely imaginative (and in an imaginary world) Manchester to Gatwick direct (HS2 + HS4Air) then direct from Gatwick to Portsmouth for services to the IOW

 

[Mgameing123]

Purely imaginative (and in an imaginary world) Manchester to Gatwick direct (HS2 + HS4Air) then direct from Gatwick to Portsmouth for services to the IOW

Or continue to Brighton for the tourists

 

[NCT]

Money would be better spent completing the full-Y HS2 augmented with Birmingham - West Country electrification.

 

[Mgameing123]

Money would be better spent completing the full-Y HS2 augmented with Birmingham - West Country electrification.

Definitely but HS4air is more for any future phases of high speed rail in the UK.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s not really wasteful considering that it’s the only reasonable way to get to Manchester from London since Avanti always cancel their trains.

“Always”?

Purely imaginative (and in an imaginary world) Manchester to Gatwick direct (HS2 + HS4Air) then direct from Gatwick to Portsmouth for services to the IOW

Or, Manchester to Southampton direct for services to the IoW. A service is just about to leave now…

 

[zwk500]

Definitely but HS4air is more for any future phases of high speed rail in the UK.

Its really, really not.

HS2 to Scotland and Leeds are the next sections with any hope of being built. Links to Bristol/Cardiff would be above HS4Air.

 

[jayah]

It is completely wasteful when you consider that Avanti are cancelling only around 6.3% of trains. That's about 6.2% higher than it should be, but still hardly 'always'.

That is a little harsh...

When John Major introduced the Passengers Charter, the target was to run of the order of 99% or 99.5% of services.

How standards have slipped that 6% is the new normal!

 

[michael8]

“Always”?




Or, Manchester to Southampton direct for services to the IoW. A service is just about to leave now…

Ah sorry, I misread the other person's post now I understand.

 

[Mgameing123]

Its really, really not.

HS2 to Scotland and Leeds are the next sections with any hope of being built. Links to Bristol/Cardiff would be above HS4Air.

HS4Air does probably take priority over Scotland though because it’s a much shorter section of high speed rail and therefore can be done for a cheaper price.

 

[michael8]

HS4Air does probably take priority over Scotland though because it’s a much shorter section of high speed rail and therefore can be done for a cheaper price.

I think it would also fit in much better with the EU plan for an interconnected Europe, as it would form a HS connection between two existing high speed lines (which no other potential project aims for at this present time in the UK).

 

[JamesT]

HS4Air does probably take priority over Scotland though because it’s a much shorter section of high speed rail and therefore can be done for a cheaper price.

Cheaper? I think that underestimates how expensive the land is in that part of the world and the cost of appeasing the NIMBYs. Just look at HS2 going through the Chilterns.

 

[Mgameing123]

Cheaper? I think that underestimates how expensive the land is in that part of the world and the cost of appeasing the NIMBYs. Just look at HS2 going through the Chilterns.

Well if you follow the M25 corridor then land should be cheaper.

 

[takno]

HS4Air does probably take priority over Scotland though because it’s a much shorter section of high speed rail and therefore can be done for a cheaper price.

If it's about length then we should do the Windsor link next. After that I propose a short section towards the East Midlands which can join the existing railway at Burton. We could follow that with a further short section to around Derby. Next I'd look at how we can get from Birmingham out towards Bristol, perhaps initially just Bromsgrove.

Wretched luck for HS4Air that there are so many short pieces of HS to build elsewhere really

 

[Bald Rick]

Well if you follow the M25 corridor then land should be cheaper.

Probably worth having a good look at comparitive property prices between Berkshire / Surrey near the M25, and Lancashire / Cumbria near the M6.

And also have a think about (and look into the cost of) environmental mitigation measures required for a new railway in the built up areas near the M25, compared to the environmental mitigation measures required near the M6 in Lancs / Cumbria.

 

[zwk500]

Well if you follow the M25 corridor then land should be cheaper.

Please do the absolute most basic research before making comments such as this. The M25 corridor is incredibly valuable commuter land, as well as any land next to the corridor potentially being required for M25 future expansions, and of course the motorway is built for road traffic at a service speed of 70mph, not a railway at 180mph.

 

[Mgameing123]

Please do the absolute most basic research before making comments such as this. The M25 corridor is incredibly valuable commuter land, as well as any land next to the corridor potentially being required for M25 future expansions, and of course the motorway is built for road traffic at a service speed of 70mph, not a railway at 180mph.

So you’re saying the land value around a motorway is the same price as the land not around a motorway?

 

[zwk500]

So you’re saying the land value around a motorway is the same price as the land not around a motorway?

It's all higher than the price of land between Preston and Carstairs.

But you're missing my final point - the M25 isn't very straight, and the railway would not be able to follow it if designed for 180mph/300kph+, and that means having to go away from the motorway into the seriously expensive land, such as the North Downs.

 

[NCT]

So you’re saying the land value around a motorway is the same price as the land not around a motorway?

It's Home Counties land value. Even with a 'motorway discount' it's still far higher than in Carstairs.

 

[camflyer]

I think it would also fit in much better with the EU plan for an interconnected Europe, as it would form a HS connection between two existing high speed lines (which no other potential project aims for at this present time in the UK).

Wouldn't it be nice to get some EU funding for such a project?

 

[Bald Rick]

So you’re saying the land value around a motorway is the same price as the land not around a motorway?

The land around the M25 is worth several orders of magnitude more than the land around the M6 north of Wigan.

And it would be several orders of magnitude more expensive to get it in a position to buy it.

Very back of envelope, but I estimate it would cost at least 20x more to gain vacant possession of land adjacent to the M25 between Denham and Merstham (per km) than land between Bamber Bridge and Abington.

 

[michael8]

Wouldn't it be nice to get some EU funding for such a project?

Yes! Definitely ! I think it would really align well with the EU's aims for an interconnected Europe.