Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?

[sheff1]

There's no dessert on any TPE service.

If you're refering to the previous 'loaf cake slices, these have been discontinued.

The, presumably current, West Coast Festive Menu on the TPE site says they offer the below to follow your Turkey Meatballs or Holiday Nutless Roast

• Sweet treats and desserts including cakes and biscuits made by bakers along our route.

 

[weeklycommuter]

With the exception of special services such as GWR & CS sleepers the job of the railway in Great Britain is to provide fast, high capacity public transport for people to travel between places all over Great Britain, not a restaurant service on rails.

 

[liamf656]

With the exception of special services such as GWR & CS sleepers the job of the railway in Great Britain is to provide fast, high capacity public transport for people to travel between places all over Great Britain, not a restaurant service on rails.

Well yeah, but if people pay for the food then the railway will continue to provide it, and while the railway continue to advertise and charge quality food prices then the passenger should expect quality food, which is the point that pretty much all the posters in here are making.

 

[Ellwill]

Sounds like EMR First Class is slowly turning into SWR's with the Sheffield-St Pancras service, reduced to "Standard Plus" with a trolley service if you're lucky enough to see one, not much different to the long distance services into Waterloo.

So for the proper First Class with the trimmings, it'd probably be only LNER, AWC, TfW Premier and the GWR & CS sleepers - unless unsurprisingly there are plans to reduce offerings on these as well.

Arguably the only ones that actually give you the trimmings are LNER, AWC and technically Caledonian in terms of getting full whack catering. With the others it usually comes at additional cost beyond non alcoholic drinks and snacky bits.

GWR: Pullman Dining £40 & £49 for two or three courses, and a £15 additional charge for the steak. Otherwise drinks and snacks only.
TfW Premier: £27 & £30 for two or three courses, or £39 & £42 with a bottle of wine. Otherwise drinks and snacks only.
Night Riviera: Complimentary breakfast options are bacon/sausage rolls, croissants or porridge. Drinks and snacks also provided.
Caledonian: Cooked breakfast as well as all options available on GWR sans the croissants. Dinner on the other hand comes at additional cost: £10 starters, £12-14 mains and another £10-12 for dessert.

 

[AlterEgo]

With the exception of special services such as GWR & CS sleepers the job of the railway in Great Britain is to provide fast, high capacity public transport for people to travel between places all over Great Britain, not a restaurant service on rails.

But that is the kind of logic that has its natural end in people being shovelled into trains 8 layers deep to make best use of the capacity. What else would you apply it to? No free wifi? No first class? No seats?

Restaurant services make rail travel more pleasant and attractive in many comparable places.

 

[Fokx]

The, presumably current, West Coast Festive Menu on the TPE site says they offer the below to follow your Turkey Meatballs or Holiday Nutless Roast

Its just biscuits now.
Tunnocks Caramel bars are additionally available on the Scottish routes

 

[DDB]

Arguably the only ones that actually give you the trimmings are LNER and AWC in terms of getting full whack catering. With the others it usually comes at additional cost beyond non alcoholic drinks and snacky bits.

To be fair they are the two true long distance routes. The EMR weekday offer is absolutely fine and appropriate for the 1-2 hour travel distance. I'm bemoaning its downgrade on Saturdays

 

[Bishopstone]

Any level of service is possible, if people are prepared to pay a realistic sum for it.

This thread started with people disappointed/angry that having paid c.£10 to travel first class between Derby and Sheffield, they'd no longer be entitled to a sandwich (etc) on top of a hot drink and biscuits etc. And I still maintain their expectations were unrealistic, on a heavily subsidised railway system.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Arguably the only ones that actually give you the trimmings are LNER, AWC and technically Caledonian in terms of getting full whack catering. With the others it usually comes at additional cost beyond non alcoholic drinks and snacky bits.

GWR: Pullman Dining £40 & £49 for two or three courses, and a £15 additional charge for the steak. Otherwise drinks and snacks only.
TfW Premier: £27 & £30 for two or three courses, or £39 & £42 with a bottle of wine. Otherwise drinks and snacks only.
Night Riviera: Complimentary breakfast options are bacon/sausage rolls, croissants or porridge. Drinks and snacks also provided.
Caledonian: Cooked breakfast as well as all options available on GWR sans the croissants. Dinner on the other hand comes at additional cost: £10 starters, £12-14 mains and another £10-12 for dessert.

Again, only a small proportion of LNER services now though, compared to almost all (weekday) services under VTEC.

Avanti are the only operator to offer a consistent food offering with "all the trimmings," although they themselves have the separate issue of cramming everyone uncomfortably into the tiny Coach K on Pendolinos on weekends, and offering a very basic seat indeed on Everos, a particular downgrade on Liverpool services as Pendolinos have far plusher seats and more space.

 

[Ellwill]

Again, only a small proportion of LNER services now though, compared to almost all (weekday) services under VTEC.

Avanti are the only operator to offer a consistent food offering with "all the trimmings," although they themselves have the separate issue of cramming everyone uncomfortably into the tiny Coach K on Pendolinos on weekends, and offering a very basic seat indeed on Everos, a particular downgrade on Liverpool services as Pendolinos have far plusher seats and more space.

I personally find the Dish offering on the majority of services rather adequate in the afternoon in terms of being provided a cooked meal. It's certainly a more substantial offering than what I had travelling on Eurostar in Plus this past summer, with what was more of a cold selection from a delicatessen than a proper dinner.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I personally find the Dish offering on the majority of services rather adequate in the afternoon in terms of being a cooked meal. It's certainly a more substantial offering than what I had travelling on Eurostar in Plus this past summer.

Sure, what I've said above though is that it's Deli that's poor in the afternoon, and both Deli and Dish in the morning.

I think the comparison to Eurostar is different though, because Eurostar has always been that way, and there is also a more premium option offered, whereas with LNER not only is it the premium service but there will always be comparisons with what was offered before.

Virgin Trains East Coast and pre-Azuma LNER used to offer a full breakfast or hot meal on every single weekday service. LNER have a huge number of Deli services where all that's on offer is a cold sandwich or vegetarian toastie, even Edinburghs, and on almost every breakfast train except for the handful of southbound "DINEs," it's a bacon roll for breakfast or some microwaved vegan doubtless palm oil fake sausage monstrosity.

 

[800Travel]

The, presumably current, West Coast Festive Menu on the TPE site says they offer the below to follow your Turkey Meatballs or Holiday Nutless Roast

They do offer biscuits, but not seen the cakes in a while now and as the other poster said, I think they've been discontinued. There is often a nice mix of snacks available onboard - ranges from crisps, popcorn, biscuits, tunnocks wafers, hummus and breadsticks, croissants, mince pies. Not everything is always available - its a little inconsistent - but a nice variety on the whole.

 

[David Bullock]

Sure, what I've said above though is that it's Deli that's poor in the afternoon, and both Deli and Dish in the morning.

I think the comparison to Eurostar is different though, because Eurostar has always been that way, and there is also a more premium option offered, whereas with LNER not only is it the premium service but there will always be comparisons with what was offered before.

Virgin Trains East Coast and pre-Azuma LNER used to offer a full breakfast or hot meal on every single weekday service. LNER have a huge number of Deli services where all that's on offer is a cold sandwich or vegetarian toastie, even Edinburghs, and on almost every breakfast train except for the handful of southbound "DINEs," it's a bacon roll for breakfast or some microwaved vegan doubtless palm oil fake sausage monstrosity.

fwiw I really don’t mind the deli and dish options on LNER. Even the smaller meal options are usually quite nice so I don’t feel short changed. The morning dine also has some kind of eggs Benedict/florentine thing which VTEC didn’t do. The deli and dish menus are also available at weekends which is a better offering than any other operator I think.

My experience of LNER first (even on a deli menu) is much better than any of the open access competition or my experience on crosscountry this summer (8 hours no catering).

Bringing it back to EMR, I personally am not too fussed whether it’s a full restaurant service, something a little paired back or just snacks at the weekend. The main thing is just that it’s delivered consistently so you know what you’re getting when you pay the extra.

 

[Frontera2]

But that is the kind of logic that has its natural end in people being shovelled into trains 8 layers deep to make best use of the capacity. What else would you apply it to? No free wifi? No first class? No seats?

Restaurant services make rail travel more pleasant and attractive in many comparable places.

Couldn’t agree with you more, plus it ultimately helps enable lower fares in standard

 

[318266]

When heading to the Greatest Gathering off my delightfully underwhelming megabus in August, I noticed that 1st class seemed oddly cheap (only £2 more return) compared to Standard, which I assume was a result of the high number of enthusiasts booked on that particular Sunday morning departure.

The seats and interior more generally felt outdated, but were still quite comfortable (which is the important part!). I received a hot chocolate and a small granola bar on my outwards journey, but on the more crowded return I only received a bottle of Harrogate water.

For a small journey from Sheffield to Derby that felt somewhat reasonable given the price, but I would be more disappointed if that was all that was offered if I was travelling to London that day.

 

[sheff1]

Its just biscuits now.

Not good if TPE are advertising something they don't provide. One for the Advertising Standards Agency maybe.

To be fair they are the two true long distance routes. The EMR weekday offer is absolutely fine and appropriate for the 1-2 hour travel distance.

LNER & Avanti are not the only two true long distance routes.

Kings Cross to Leeds is basically the same journey tme as St Pancras to Sheffield.

Never understand why so many people seem to be content with, and in some cases strongly support, the race to the bottom.

 

[Haywain]

LNER & Avanti are not the only two true long distance routes.

So, London to Penzance isn't long distance?

 

[duffield]

Not good if TPE are advertising something they don't provide. One for the Advertising Standards Agency maybe.


LNER & Avanti are not the only two true long distance routes.

Kings Cross to Leeds is basically the same journey tme as St Pancras to Sheffield.

Never understand why so many people seem to be content with, and in some cases strongly support, the race to the bottom.

There's quite a few commentators on here who really think the MML deserves to be stripped of all catering and 1st class "because it's not long enough" and because "other longer routes don't have 1st and/or catering". So yes, race to the bottom!

 

[Haywain]

There's quite a few commentators on here who really think the MML deserves to be stripped of all catering and 1st class "because it's not long enough" and because "other longer routes don't have 1st and/or catering". So yes, race to the bottom!

Well, we've already been robbed of first class and catering, along with direct services to the north, at the southern end of the MML.

 

[dk1]

There's quite a few commentators on here who really think the MML deserves to be stripped of all catering and 1st class "because it's not long enough" and because "other longer routes don't have 1st and/or catering". So yes, race to the bottom!

Seems that way which is a very odd outlook. Here in the east we often have cafe bar and trolley on the Great Eastern Main Line to Norwich even trialling catering on the regional route to Stansted too!! Our catering department however has always remained in house.

 

[weeklycommuter]

There's quite a few commentators on here who really think the MML deserves to be stripped of all catering and 1st class "because it's not long enough" and because "other longer routes don't have 1st and/or catering". So yes, race to the bottom!

Seems that way which is a very odd outlook. Here in the east we often have cafe bar and trolley on the Great Eastern Main Line to Norwich even trialling catering on the regional route to Stansted too!! Our catering department however has always remained in house.

There used to be a trolley service on trains such as the two 10-coach Class 444s each hour each way London Waterloo-Winchester-Southampton-Bournemouth on the SWR network but it was not reinstated after the pandemic as it did not cover its costs.

These train services carry a lot of passengers and ensuring that all passengers get a seat is really more important than catering.

The refurbishment around 2017 that increased the number of seats on the Class 444 and Class 450 trains was very welcome.

Each Class 444 5-coach set now has 327 standard class and 32 first class seats, all two plus two seating, making 654 standard class and 64 first class seats on each 10-coach Class 444. I can bring any food or drink I want with me or buy it at the station. The most important consideration is that the trains have enough seats for all passengers travelling on journeys of more than one hour.

 

[dk1]

There used to be a trolley service on trains such as the two 10-coach Class 444s each hour each way London Waterloo-Winchester-Southampton-Bournemouth on the SWR network but it was not reinstated after the pandemic as it did not cover its costs.

These train services carry a lot of passengers and ensuring that all passengers get a seat is really more important than catering.

The refurbishment around 2017 that increased the number of seats on the Class 444 and Class 450 trains was very welcome.

Each Class 444 5-coach set now has 327 standard class and 32 first class seats, all two plus two seating, making 654 standard class and 64 first class seats on each 10-coach Class 444. I can bring any food or drink I want with me or buy it at the station. The most important consideration is that the trains have enough seats for all passengers travelling on journeys of more than one hour.

I was really bemused when catering was withdrawn on the longer Weymouth & Exeter routes with no effort to bring them back as passenger numbers recovered. I often used the Bournemouth trains too which seemed to do well with bar and trolley. Such a shame.

 

[Sealink]

Sounds like EMR First Class is slowly turning into SWR's with the Sheffield-St Pancras service, reduced to "Standard Plus" with a trolley service if you're lucky enough to see one, not much different to the long distance services into Waterloo.

So for the proper First Class with the trimmings, it'd probably be only LNER, AWC, TfW Premier and the GWR & CS sleepers - unless unsurprisingly there are plans to reduce offerings on these as well.

We don't get a trolley service.
Seating in First is 2+1 to Exeter and bizarrely, 2+2 to Weymouth.

I've stopped traveling in First from Weymouth as it's not worth it.

Shame EMT don't see the value in First Class when their neighbours from KIngs Cross and Euston provide a much more hearty service.

 

[sheff1]

So, London to Penzance isn't long distance?

Not sure why you have asked that whilst quoting my post which made the same point.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I was really bemused when catering was withdrawn on the longer Weymouth & Exeter routes with no effort to bring them back as passenger numbers recovered. I often used the Bournemouth trains too which seemed to do well with bar and trolley. Such a shame.

In the following answer to a question in the House of Lords the Rail Minister Lord Hendy stated that reinstatement of refreshments (catering trolley) on South Western Railway London Waterloo on Exeter train services would be examined afresh to see if a positive financial case can be made for it. I have not seen any update on this since last May.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2025-04-28/HL6952

Question
Baroness Pidgeon Liberal Democrat Life peer Lords
To ask His Majesty's Government what plans they have to provide a catering trolley on the London Waterloo to Exeter line after South Western Railway comes under public ownership in May.

Answer
Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill Labour Life peer Lords
Answered on 12 May 2025
One of the tasks of the new management of South Western Railways (SWR) after train operations come into public ownership will be to pay close attention to the needs of the travelling public. As I know that a long held desire of travellers on this line is the reinstatement of refreshments, this will be examined afresh to see if a positive financial case can be made for it.

 

[dk1]

In the following answer to a question in the House of Lords the Rail Minister Lord Hendy stated that reinstatement of refreshments (catering trolley) on South Western Railway London Waterloo on Exeter train services would be examined afresh to see if a positive financial case can be made for it. I have not seen any update on this since last May.

Sounds like it’s been quietly swept into a cupboard

 

[Kite159]

Sounds like it’s been quietly swept into a cupboard

Most likely, the bean counters will probably decide it costs too much money

 

[Haywain]

the bean counters will probably decide it costs too much money

Isn't that what "will be examined afresh to see if a positive financial case can be made for it." suggests? To me, a positive financial case would require it to either be directly profitable or to cover the costs by attracting a higher fare income.

 

[Essexman]

Just biscuits, granola bars and croissants on EMR, London to Leicester yesterday and return today.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Regarding the sausage roll incident on LNER, standards would have nosedived in First Class if the staff morale is so low for that to happen.

The DfT may be tempted to do away with FC and replace with Standard Plus on non-sleeper routes, when it is more cost effective to have a contracted trolley service and offer nothing on journeys under 3 hours, instead of spending extra to improve things and staff training & perks etc to boost morale.

It is very sad to see how hospitality standards have dropped compared to the past with people seemingly more hard hearted than their precedessors & previous generations.

There's a video out there with a TPE member of staff in FC being rude & unhelpful.

The railways are not the only victims as British Airways now charge for meals on its short haul flights by selling M&S sandwiches.

Hope EMR will continue with their FC unchanged without going the SWR way quite yet. This will remain to be seen when EMR transfers into DFTO hands.