December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[paul@skegby.org.]

I was looking at Newark the other day, weekdays they have 46 trains to London and 45 I think from london, that’s a cracking service. Think there was 10/11 more than currently. Let’s hope it all goes well.

Also slightly earlier train to York and the North @ 0712

 

[800001]

That will be partly because the turnaround times at Leeds have increased from 30 to 80 minutes, therefore fewer round trips are possible in a day and the diagrams have become less efficient.

So now occupying a platform for 80 mins? That's madness in such a busy station.

 

[xotGD]

So now occupying a platform for 80 mins? That's madness in such a busy station.

Some sit at Leeds doing nothing. Some take a handful of passengers to Bradford. Meanwhile capacity between Leeds and London is severely reduced.

 

[55002]

Also slightly earlier train to York and the North @ 0712

Yep the old Deltic 0550 Aberdeen off the Cross!

 

[43 302]

That will be partly because the turnaround times at Leeds have increased from 30 to 80 minutes, therefore fewer round trips are possible in a day and the diagrams have become less efficient.

It will be interesting to see how performance affects any 21 minute turn arounds. I believe just the one in the LTP but there are more in certain STP weekends. (21 minutes is the TPR for London trains turning around funnily enough)

 

[John R]

It will be interesting to see how performance affects any 21 minute turn arounds. I believe just the one in the LTP but there are more in certain STP weekends. (21 minutes is the TPR for London trains turning around funnily enough)

Could you explain TPR please?

 

[Tramfan]

Could you explain TPR please?

Timetable planning rules

 

[whoosh]

They are here if you want some light reading!

The 21 minutes minimum turnaround specified at Leeds is on page 259 of 'TPR 2025 V4 LNE'

Operational Rules - Network Rail

The Engineering Access Statement (EAS) and the Timetable Planning Rules (TPR) are collectively referred to as the Operational Rules.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[BrianW]

It will be interesting to see how performance affects any 21 minute turn arounds. I believe just the one in the LTP but there are more in certain STP weekends. (21 minutes is the TPR for London trains turning around funnily enough)

LTP? STP? TPR?

Could you explain TPR please?

 

[321362]

LTP? STP? TPR?

Long term planning, short term planning, timetable planning rules. TPR is in the post above yours.

 

[BrianW]

Long term planning, short term planning, timetable planning rules. TPR is in the post above yours.

Thank you. I saw TPR in the subsequent post. Sometimes later responses can appear before others? I did 'quote' tht response regarding TPR.
I was hoping to make the wider observation regarding 'abbreviations' and 'acronyms' (esp TLAs!); 3 in two sentences of 28 words total?

 

[43 302]

Thank you. I saw TPR in the subsequent post. Sometimes later responses can appear before others? I did 'quote' tht response regarding TPR.
I was hoping to make the wider observation regarding 'abbreviations' and 'acronyms' (esp TLAs!); 3 in two sentences of 28 words total?

The Dec25 Velocity timetable was, for a period, known as the ESG timetable. Except no-one could tell me what it stood for... I've since discovered it is 'Event Steering Group', but it is unfortunately rather common in the railway for accronyms to be thrown around haphazardly, despite often not knowing what they stand for! Apologies for the above, I assumed they we would be largely known on a rail forum.

 

[marsker]

Of late, when I've heard a rail professional talking about it, it's been referred to as "Dec 25", with Dec pronounced as in deck.

 

[The Planner]

Of late, when I've heard a rail professional talking about it, it's been referred to as "Dec 25", with Dec pronounced as in deck.

December changes are always called Dec in my experience. Principle change would be its proper name, subsiduary for May.

 

[weeklycommuter]

That will be partly because the turnaround times at Leeds have increased from 30 to 80 minutes, therefore fewer round trips are possible in a day and the diagrams have become less efficient.

So now occupying a platform for 80 mins? That's madness in such a busy station.

The LNER rolling stock is also very expensive to operate and LNER (in contrast to Avanti and Greater Anglia) have an operational deficit so this is not great either for rail passengers or taxpayers. It is clear that LNER do not have enough rolling stock to run their December 2025 timetable with long enough trains in all cases. As well as the IC225s they will also be relying on running many 5 coach trains.

I wonder if it would be better in future timetables for the two LNER trains each way each hour between London Kings Cross to Leeds to run to Leeds only and let another train operator run all train services connecting Leeds with Bradford and Harrogate. Then perhaps the LNER turnarounds at Leeds could all be 50 minutes which would be a more efficient use of the very expensive rolling stock.

I suppose those who want the direct LNER train services Bradford and Harrogate to London Kings Cross would not like this but providing those direct train services is looking like a very expensive and inefficient use of LNER's limited rolling stock.

I can understand the decision not to risk a 20 minute turnaround as it is essential that the December 2025 East Coast Mainline timetable works reliably and does not fall apart.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The LNER rolling stock is also very expensive to operate and LNER (in contrast to Avanti and Greater Anglia) have an operational deficit so this is not great either for rail passengers or taxpayers. It is clear that LNER do not have enough rolling stock to run their December 2025 timetable with long enough trains in all cases. As well as the IC225s they will also be relying on running many 5 coach trains.

I wonder if it would be better in future timetables for the two LNER trains each way each hour between London Kings Cross to Leeds to run to Leeds only and let another train operator run all train services connecting Leeds with Bradford and Harrogate. Then perhaps the LNER turnarounds at Leeds could all be 50 minutes which would be a more efficient use of the very expensive rolling stock.

I suppose those who want the direct LNER train services Bradford and Harrogate to London Kings Cross would not like this but providing those direct train services is looking like a very expensive and inefficient use of LNER's limited rolling stock.

I can understand the decision not to risk a 20 minute turnaround as it is essential that the December 2025 East Coast Mainline timetable works reliably and does not fall apart.

Totally agree. LNER should only be running beyond Leeds if in marginal time.

 

[AndrewE]

this is not great either for rail passengers or taxpayers. It is clear that LNER do not have enough rolling stock to run their December 2025 timetable with long enough trains in all cases. As well as the IC225s they will also be relying on running many 5 coach trains.

This sounds (smells) suspiciously like Operation Princess all over again - and even that was predicted after exactly the same thing happened on the Liverpool Newcastle axis a few years before: Replace hourly 6 (8?)-coach trains with 3 or 4 2-car DMUs an hour and then wonder why the enhanced service attracts so many people that the trains can't possibly handle them.

I'm glad that I don't have to travel on the ECML unless I want a particular run out... I'm wondering about a trip just to get a ride on an IC225 from London while I can. I shall try to get a train that isn't absolutely rammed, which was my last ECML experience when I had to get to Edinburgh and the WCML had fallen down.

 

[D6130]

This sounds (smells) suspiciously like Operation Princess all over again - and even that was predicted after exactly the same thing happened on the Liverpool Newcastle axis a few years before: Replace hourly 6 (8?)-coach trains with 3 or 4 2-car DMUs an hour and then wonder why the enhanced service attracts so many people that the trains can't possibly handle them.

I'm glad that I don't have to travel on the ECML unless I want a particular run out... I'm wondering about a trip just to get a ride on an IC225 from London while I can. I shall try to get a train that isn't absolutely rammed, which was my last ECML experience when I had to get to Edinburgh and the WCML had fallen down.

If I were you I would reserve my seats in advance!

 

[Bald Rick]

This sounds (smells) suspiciously like Operation Princess all over again - and even that was predicted after exactly the same thing happened on the Liverpool Newcastle axis a few years before: Replace hourly 6 (8?)-coach trains with 3 or 4 2-car DMUs an hour and then wonder why the enhanced service attracts so many people that the trains can't possibly handle them.

It’s not the same as either of those examples. This change has more seats - as the Guardian piece says 60,000 extra seats each week (that’s for LNER).

 

[AndrewE]

It’s not the same as either of those examples. This change has more seats - as the Guardian piece says 60,000 extra seats each week (that’s for LNER).

... if all the trains are the full length that was planned - and they actually run!

We shall see!

 

[D6130]

It’s not the same as either of those examples. This change has more seats - as the Guardian piece says 60,000 extra seats each week (that’s for LNER).

For York, Newcastle and Edinburgh perhaps....but can you honestly say that the same applies for Wakefield and Leeds?

 

[Bald Rick]

For York, Newcastle and Edinburgh perhaps....but can you honestly say that the same applies for Wakefield and Leeds?

It’s 60,000 seats across the piece.

As others have said upthread, many stations between London and Doncaster see many more services (heading to York, Newcastle, etc), which will free up seats on the Leeds services.

 

[weeklycommuter]

LNER state they will run an additional 10,000 trains a year which is around 200 additional trains a week. If these 200 additional trains a week account for the stated 60,000 extra seats available each week that would be around 300 seats per train which is the number of seats on a five coach Azuma. The number of additional trains is accounted for by the additional hourly trains London Kings Cross to and from Newcastle.

LNER Transformational Timetable Drives Growth For The UK | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

12/12/2025

The new timetable, which launches on 14 December 2025, will see the introduction of an additional 10,000 LNER services per year and 60,000 extra seats available each week

 

[eastwestdivide]

LNER state they will run an additional 10,000 trains a year which is around 200 additional trains a week. If these 200 additional trains a week account for the stated 60,000 extra seats available each week that would be around 300 seats per train which is the number of seats on a five coach Azuma. The number of additional trains is accounted for by the additional hourly trains London Kings Cross to and from Newcastle.

Nice bit of "back of an envelope" calculation to put things in perspective!

 

[D6700]

They are here if you want some light reading!

The 21 minutes minimum turnaround specified at Leeds is on page 259 of 'TPR 2025 V4 LNE'

Operational Rules - Network Rail

The Engineering Access Statement (EAS) and the Timetable Planning Rules (TPR) are collectively referred to as the Operational Rules.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Just for clarity, "TPR 2026 V2 LNE" is the one that applies to the December 2025 Timetable. The 21 minutes turnaround time is unchanged, though.

 

[Intercity_225]

So far, no cancellations at Kings Cross, so better than May 2018!







(touchwood)

 

[Bob85]

So far, no cancellations at Kings Cross, so better than May 2018!







(touchwood)

It is a Sunday though, we will have to wait until Monday to see how it holds up with the weekday timetable

 

[AndrewE]

It is a Sunday though, we will have to wait until Monday to see how it holds up with the weekday timetable

or maybe just this evening?

 

[43 302]

It is a Sunday though, we will have to wait until Monday to see how it holds up with the weekday timetable

It's basically the same timetable, apart from starting later etc. Still 6 tph in the same pattern mostly.

 

[The Planner]

I wouldn't be evaluating the timetable based on a couple of days.