CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[craigybagel]

Aren't there some extra workings being introduced between Chester and Wrexham next week (2tph from 15th/14th Dec 2025)? Presumably they would be 197s so even more pressure on the Cardiff Metro to free up some 197s?

1 extra 197 per day required for this.

 

[Jez]

1 extra 197 per day required for this.

Will they increase the diagrams or will they just juggle the existing diagrams? Im also unsure if a 197 will still officially be booked for the Bidstons?

 

[Caaardiff]

Aren't there some extra workings being introduced between Chester and Wrexham next week (2tph from 15th/14th Dec 2025)? Presumably they would be 197s so even more pressure on the Cardiff Metro to free up some 197s?

Just one unit providing a new shuttle meaning 2tph including the Holyhead - Cardiff/Birmingham services.

I wouldn't be surprised if a 150 is used in the South to free up the 197 for the North.

 

[Jez]

Just one unit providing a new shuttle meaning 2tph including the Holyhead - Cardiff/Birmingham services.

I wouldn't be surprised if a 150 is used in the South to free up the 197 for the North.

197s seemed to have good availability today as 3 of the 4 Maesteg-Ebbw Diagrams were 3 car 197s and the other diagram a pair of 2 car 197s!

Also just 1 x 150 on Cheltenham. All Manchesters and Swanline/Pembroke Docks seem to have been 197s as booked from a quick check on RTT. One day last week no less than 4 diagrams were subbed for a 150 or pair of 153s/AT set.

 

[WirralLine]

From what I can see it looks as if the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle is also booked 197 from the timetable change and no longer booked as an AT 153 set.

 

[craigybagel]

Will they increase the diagrams or will they just juggle the existing diagrams? Im also unsure if a 197 will still officially be booked for the Bidstons?

I think there's a much bigger shuffle taking place that spits out a 197 at the bottom for the Wrexham shuttle. There's an extra 158 coming off ATC Crewe empty to Chester in the morning that's supposedly tied in with it even though it's not the unit for the shuttle.

 

[Jez]

Thank you @WirralLine and @craigybagel for the information. When i was trying to work out the new Heart of Wales Diagrams I couldnt work out how they were going to do it without something changing, as there didnt seem to be enough AT sets for the diagrams so it makes sense the Crewe Local could be a 197 instead.

 

[craigybagel]

From what I can see it looks as if the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle is also booked 197 from the timetable change and no longer booked as an AT 153 set.

Indeed, I noticed that as well. It was meant to be 153s to keep Crewe drivers competent so they could come on and off Crewe ATC for maintenance. Perhaps that plan has changed?

Hopefully, if it does become a permanent thing they'll tighten up the timetable. A 197 on 153 timings is rather overpowered, to put it mildly!

 

[Jez]

Indeed, I noticed that as well. It was meant to be 153s to keep Crewe drivers competent so they could come on and off Crewe ATC for maintenance. Perhaps that plan has changed?

Hopefully, if it does become a permanent thing they'll tighten up the timetable. A 197 on 153 timings is rather overpowered, to put it mildly!

Perhaps they are keeping them at Canton then and there will be a permanent Swanline working each day for the 153s as there is now.

Going back to the 197s I agree they will be waiting for time at every station on those timings as they often are on the South Wales Mainline.

 

[sd0733]

Perhaps they are keeping them at Canton then and there will be a permanent Swanline working each day for the 153s as there is now.

Going back to the 197s I agree they will be waiting for time at every station on those timings as they often are on the South Wales Mainline.

No, fully Heart of Wales Mon-Sat with Sunday visits to Crewe and Fishguard. I've put the diagrams in the AT thread.

Swanline now 150 which includes a 2 day cycle over night in Carmarthen visiting Fishguard and Milford Haven.

The long term plan M-F diagram wise there looks to be:
13x 150
4x AT
17x 158
26x 197/0
22x 197/1
3× 230
8x 231
5x 756/0
14x 756/1
5x Mk4

 

[Peter Sarf]

Aren't there some extra workings being introduced between Chester and Wrexham next week (2tph from 15th/14th Dec 2025)? Presumably they would be 197s so even more pressure on the Cardiff Metro to free up some 197s?

There should be plenty of 197s available UNTIL the Cambrian Coast sheds its 158s in favour of most of the 21 x 197/0s as planned. There are already over half a dozen ERTMS/ETCS 197s meant for the Cambrian Coast in use on non Cambrian duties.

So in the short term there are enough 197s.

Long term, when Cambrian switches over and even assuming 398s are all in service, there are often doubts expressed as to whether the class 197 fleet is big enough. Not to mention whether Chester depot can cope with the size of the 197 fleet !.

 

[Anonymous10]

No, fully Heart of Wales Mon-Sat with Sunday visits to Crewe and Fishguard. I've put the diagrams in the AT thread.

Swanline now 150 which includes a 2 day cycle over night in Carmarthen visiting Fishguard and Milford Haven.

The long term plan M-F diagram wise there looks to be:
13x 150
4x AT
17x 158
26x 197/0
22x 197/1
3× 230
8x 231
5x 756/0
14x 756/1
5x Mk4

As i live on the milford line, which diagram is planned as a 150? I will be doing my best to avoid it.

 

[XFeed]

There should be plenty of 197s available UNTIL the Cambrian Coast sheds its 158s in favour of most of the 21 x 197/0s as planned. There are already over half a dozen ERTMS/ETCS 197s meant for the Cambrian Coast in use on non Cambrian duties.

So in the short term there are enough 197s.

Long term, when Cambrian switches over and even assuming 398s are all in service, there are often doubts expressed as to whether the class 197 fleet is big enough. Not to mention whether Chester depot can cope with the size of the 197 fleet !.

Apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere regarding Chester depot maximum unit capacity.

It is my understanding that for depot safety reasons at Chester only a maximum of 15 units at any one time can be on site.

 

[sd0733]

As i live on the milford line, which diagram is planned as a 150? I will be doing my best to avoid it.

Looks to be the 15:44 Carmarthen to Milford then 16:50 to Cardiff.

 

[nigelsporne]

Is there any sign that the units on 'long term sick' are being repaired in preparation for the new Timetable?

 

[Anonymous10]

Looks to be the 15:44 Carmarthen to Milford then 16:50 to Cardiff.

Is the 1744 off cardiff a 150 in the new timetable?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere regarding Chester depot maximum unit capacity.

It is my understanding that for depot safety reasons at Chester only a maximum of 15 units at any one time can be on site.

That's interesting. Now I cannot make up my mind whether fifteen is a lot or not !.
Certainly not much if just for stabling overnight but what is of concern is if that impacts the amount of routine maintenance overnight and repair that can be carried out at Chester.

This would limit how many, currently spare, 197s can be used of course as depot capacity (Machynlleth ?) will be buried under 158s ?.

 

[Jez]

Is the 1744 off cardiff a 150 in the new timetable?

I think this will be a 197 as now? As doesnt it form from the 1629 Swansea-Cardiff? Unless other things have changed.

 

[Lewisham2221]

There should be plenty of 197s available UNTIL the Cambrian Coast sheds its 158s in favour of most of the 21 x 197/0s as planned. There are already over half a dozen ERTMS/ETCS 197s meant for the Cambrian Coast in use on non Cambrian duties.

So in the short term there are enough 197s.

Long term, when Cambrian switches over and even assuming 398s are all in service, there are often doubts expressed as to whether the class 197 fleet is big enough. Not to mention whether Chester depot can cope with the size of the 197 fleet !.

I thought the (longer term) plan was for Machynlleth to maintain the ERTMS 197s, so the workload for Chester shouldn't increase when the full fleet is in operation?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I thought the (longer term) plan was for Machynlleth to maintain the ERTMS 197s, so the workload for Chester shouldn't increase when the full fleet is in operation?

I think you are correct about Machynlleth. BUT before the 158s leave Machynlleth the, currently spare, ERTMS 197s have not really got depot space even though over half a dozen of them have been pressed into service elsewhere on TfW.

There are posts suggesting Chester cannot even cope with all the 197s that are NOT the 21 fitted with ERTMS.

 

[Jez]

An AT set on one of the Cheltenham's today plus a 150 on Pembroke Dock. covering for 197s But still a few 3 car 197s on Maesteg and Ebbw Vale.

I assume the reason Chester can take up to 15 x 197s at any one time as lots are stabled overnight elsewhere anyway such as Carmarthen, Crewe, Cardiff and Hoyhead. SO they wouldnt really need to be any more? Is that why the long term out of service are stored at Holyhead in the main.

 

[XFeed]

That's interesting. Now I cannot make up my mind whether fifteen is a lot or not !.
Certainly not much if just for stabling overnight but what is of concern is if that impacts the amount of routine maintenance overnight and repair that can be carried out at Chester.

This would limit how many, currently spare, 197s can be used of course as depot capacity (Machynlleth ?) will be buried under 158s ?.

15 unit depot capacity has never been enough even for the small fleet of 175's when maintained at Chester, under Alstom the depot capacity was often overlooked in order to maintain 24/27 service compliance but CAF enforce this.

The 15 units at any one time is a juggling act especially through the night as the number will be made up of units ending Chester and then receiving FPX's - Fuel point exams and stabled in readiness for following days service, providing no defects are identified prior to and on arrival that require units to be stopped also along with long term stopped stabled on depot during repair, then there are the units specially returned for defect rectification and exams that are all fighting for depot space. Any 15x's that are stabled EOD - End of Day at Chester station and require fuel also add to this equation. Units parked on depot reception road or in the middle yard do not count towards the 15 which helps massively.

 

[fodphil]

AT03

 

[Tony2]

An AT set on one of the Cheltenham's today plus a 150 on Pembroke Dock. covering for 197s But still a few 3 car 197s on Maesteg and Ebbw Vale.

I assume the reason Chester can take up to 15 x 197s at any one time as lots are stabled overnight elsewhere anyway such as Carmarthen, Crewe, Cardiff and Hoyhead. SO they wouldnt really need to be any more? Is that why the long term out of service are stored at Holyhead in the main.

Saw the 153s at Cardiff today on the Cheltenham service, 153531+153303. AT03 on RTT as mentioned by the previous post.

 

[tfw756rider]

3C02 0924 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth hasn't run.

This service was cancelled due to an excluded reason (PL).

Realtime Trains | 3C02 0924 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C02 0924 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There were reports today that yesterday's 1612 Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog service (from RTT operated by 197 044) hit a tree at Glan Conwy.
North Wales live says there were no injuries but the driver's cab was damaged.
Does that mean another 197 is sidelined waiting repair?
RTT says the cancellation was due to lineside vegetation, which seems true enough.

 

[Jez]

There were reports today that yesterday's 1612 Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog service (from RTT operated by 197 044) hit a tree at Glan Conwy.
North Wales live says there were no injuries but the driver's cab was damaged.
Does that mean another 197 is sidelined waiting repair?
RTT says the cancellation was due to lineside vegetation, which seems true enough.

Just seen it reported on the local news. It seems it happened just after it left Glan Conwy.

 

[chrisjo]

Just seen it reported on the local news. It seems it happened just after it left Glan Conwy.

This on the line that was recently closed for weeks for the removal of lineside vegetation?

 

[tfw756rider]

Updated set of schedule links:

Realtime Trains | 3C01 0420 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 08/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 0420 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 08/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

ran - 197030+197029 Shrewsbury - Machynlleth

Realtime Trains | 3C02 0924 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C02 0924 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C03 1020 Aberystwyth to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C03 1020 departure from Aberystwyth to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C06 1557 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C06 1557 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very Short Term addition, but cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C07 1832 Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C07 1832 departure from Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very Short Term addition, but cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C04 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 11/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C04 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 11/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C05 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 11/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C05 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 11/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C06 1557 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C06 1557 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C07 1832 Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C07 1832 departure from Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C11 0423 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Holyhead Car. M.D. | 13/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C11 0423 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Holyhead Car. M.D. on 13/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C00 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 15/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C00 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 15/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C01 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 15/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 15/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C00 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 16/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C00 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 16/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C01 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 16/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 16/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Gordonman]

Updated set of schedule links:

Realtime Trains | 3C01 0420 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 08/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 0420 departure from Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 08/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

ran - 197030+197029 Shrewsbury - Machynlleth

Realtime Trains | 3C02 0924 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C02 0924 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Aberystwyth on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C03 1020 Aberystwyth to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C03 1020 departure from Aberystwyth to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C06 1557 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C06 1557 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very Short Term addition, but cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C07 1832 Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 10/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C07 1832 departure from Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 10/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Very Short Term addition, but cancelled

Realtime Trains | 3C04 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 11/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C04 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 11/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C05 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 11/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C05 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 11/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C06 1557 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C06 1557 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Pwllheli on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C07 1832 Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 12/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C07 1832 departure from Pwllheli to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 12/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C11 0423 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Holyhead Car. M.D. | 13/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C11 0423 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Holyhead Car. M.D. on 13/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C00 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 15/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C00 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 15/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C01 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 15/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 15/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C00 1040 Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury | 16/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C00 1040 departure from Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs to Shrewsbury on 16/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3C01 1226 Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs | 16/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 3C01 1226 departure from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth Carr. Sdgs on 16/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks for posting.

Both 3C04 and 3C05 have run today with 197029 and 197030.

There was also an 8Z01 Shrewsbury sidings - Crewe Electric which ran in the early hours.Any ID would be appreciated