Future of the 350/2s

[Class15]

If using 350s at GWR meant there was displacement of units and a way of fitting batteries to existing electrostars to remove the Southern diesel stock was found then there might be some sense in sourcing the units needed to backfill that release. Otherwise, not so convinced.

Just noting that there needs to a really good reason to saddle the GWR operation with a different fleet of trains and all the training / upheaval that causes.

In my opinion, Southern needs more stock on electrified lines at the moment to be honest. The easiest way to do this is drafting in more electrostars from somewhere.

 

[cle]

I haven't read all 49 pages so apologies if previously asked but could they replace 319 in Northern?
What about in Scotland, any use?
Or to form new services Donny all stops to Edinburgh does that work?
Could they supplement Brum / Cov to Manc to minimise diesel under wire?

I would think they could do something in Scotland - maybe those random Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh services - nothing else really benefits from their speed.

Possibly the often-mentioned Edinburgh-Newcastle semi/stopper which is hard to path but in some shape (skip stops) - or the Dunbar services.

Brum-Manc - issue is that they begin in diesel territory (Reading/Bristol) - those really need bi-modes. Obv they worked perfectly for the Liverpools - so otherwise, yes.

I think they'd work well on a Curzon St - Handsacre - Stoke - Manchester... if something like that was ever tried in the future.

 

[physics34]

If using 350s at GWR meant there was displacement of units and a way of fitting batteries to existing electrostars to remove the Southern diesel stock was found then there might be some sense in sourcing the units needed to backfill that release. Otherwise, not so convinced.

Just noting that there needs to a really good reason to saddle the GWR operation with a different fleet of trains and all the training / upheaval that causes.

Yeh i can see that. Would be high cost. But leaving half a 350/2 fleet sitting idle isnt very cost effective either. Did we hear back from the 379 battery trial?

 

[D365]

Did we hear back from the 379 battery trial?

It was a demonstrator and never intended to lead to any sort of fleet-wide fitment.

 

[Trainbike46]

But leaving half a 350/2 fleet sitting idle isnt very cost effective either.

Because of the leasing structure in use, the railway isn't paying for the 350/2s if they aren't used. The reason they are not in service anymore is that, unlike the other 350 subclasses, they were more expensive than new trains. The ROSCO only has itself to blame for that.

I would like to see the 350/2s back in service, but it should be because they offer an improved service somewhere, for example by replacing worn-out/end-of-life stock, or expanding capacity or frequency. If the proposal exists solely to bring the 350/2s back into service, it almost certainly would be better to not do it.

 

[The Mercian]

I would think they could do something in Scotland - maybe those random Glasgow-Carstairs-Edinburgh services - nothing else really benefits from their speed.

Possibly the often-mentioned Edinburgh-Newcastle semi/stopper which is hard to path but in some shape (skip stops) - or the Dunbar services.

Brum-Manc - issue is that they begin in diesel territory (Reading/Bristol) - those really need bi-modes. Obv they worked perfectly for the Liverpools - so otherwise, yes.

I think they'd work well on a Curzon St - Handsacre - Stoke - Manchester... if something like that was ever tried in the future.

By the time they get to Handsacre Southeastern will be cascading the Javelins by then….<this is sarcasm>

 

[Transilien]

By the time they get to Handsacre Southeastern will be cascading the Javelins by then….<this is sarcasm>

I know it's sarcasm, but the javelins would be perfect for medium-distance routes like Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool. They could be used even for Southeastern or Southern classic trains as true successors to the Class 411.

 

[The Mercian]

I know it's sarcasm, but the javelins would be perfect for medium-distance routes like Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool. They could be used even for Southeastern or Southern classic trains as true successors to the Class 411.

Yep, I realised after I’d posted that actually they’d be perfect inter-regional trains connecting main population hubs and would be quite a good idea for the Midlands/North.

 

[brad465]

In my opinion, Southern needs more stock on electrified lines at the moment to be honest. The easiest way to do this is drafting in more electrostars from somewhere.

GWR want to replace all of their non-IET fleet. If the DfT approve an order that includes displacing 387s, this is where I can see Southern getting more 387s from. They're unlikely to benefit from getting 350/2s as a stopgap, as they won't be there for very long under their long-term fleet plans.

 

[Russel]

GWR want to replace all of their non-IET fleet. If the DfT approve an order that includes displacing 387s, this is where I can see Southern getting more 387s from. They're unlikely to benefit from getting 350/2s as a stopgap, as they won't be there for very long under their long-term fleet plans.

Where has this come from, I thought they were only looking at replacing DMUs?

 

[brad465]

Where has this come from, I thought they were only looking at replacing DMUs?

It was originally this thread, however on re-reading the relevant bit, it transpires the OP forgot to include 387s in the "things not being replaced" as they were corrected. So you can retract my earlier post.

 

[Snow1964]

GWR want to replace all of their non-IET fleet. If the DfT approve an order that includes displacing 387s, this is where I can see Southern getting more 387s from. They're unlikely to benefit from getting 350/2s as a stopgap, as they won't be there for very long under their long-term fleet plans.

It was originally this thread, however on re-reading the relevant bit, it transpires the OP forgot to include 387s in the "things not being replaced" as they were corrected. So you can retract my earlier post.

The DfT still have it as a possible option in the Procurement spreadsheet (which was updated September). The wording now says

Replacement of all existing DMUs (and possibly EMUs), excluding the IET fleet, with Battery Electric Multiple Units (BEMUs) and/or diesel multi-mode units. Potential for this procurement to include units for other non-GWR routes.

DfT and associated bodies listing of future commercial contracts (commercial pipeline) - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk

So unless it has been absolutely ruled out since, and other thread reads as unlikely rather than confirmed never will happen.

It does seem GWR isn't planning on 350s, but might be taking options to cover other fleets eg 159, 168 etc.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Question now is how long before the first scrap run?

 

[Mamorin]

I would guess this time next year at the earliest.

Though I could be wrong as I'm only guessing.

 

[brad465]

Question now is how long before the first scrap run?

Depends how quickly the Newport situation is resolved: 455s are now going into store and will likely be first in the queue for scrap runs, going to other locations that scrap much slower than Newport did. I wouldn't mind betting 350/2s have a long spell in store as a result, similar to 175s and 379s.

 

[Mamorin]

The Newport situation could end up being a saving grace for the 350/2s, even though I doubt that will be the case.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The Newport situation could end up being a saving grace for the 350/2s, even though I doubt that will be the case.

Not really, if they’re kept in cold storage they’ll be absolutely useless and only fit for scrap anyway before much longer.

The fact they’ve gone from having an OHLE feed whilst in storage at Wembley to having nothing at Marston means the writing is on the wall. Has anything come out of Marston and lived?

 

[Topological]

Not really, if they’re kept in cold storage they’ll be absolutely useless and only fit for scrap anyway before much longer.

The fact they’ve gone from having an OHLE feed whilst in storage at Wembley to having nothing at Marston means the writing is on the wall. Has anything come out of Marston and lived?

Do the 701s count? 68+Mk5?

Possibly that is stretching it, but both are now in service*

 

[Southern Dvr]

I

Do the 701s count? 68+Mk5?

Possibly that is stretching it, but both are now in service*

l will grant you the 68+mk 5 but they went in there sort of knowing they were going to chiltern and the 701s were new out the box.

But the mark 3s, HSTs (aside a couple to preservation) 319s, 769s, D78s…none of those have had a happy ending.

 

[sad1e]

Has anything come out of Marston and lived?

319's that were stored there were converted to 769's and are now with northern.

The class 96/3 heating cars are now in Use with ERS for keeping rolling stock warm at Gt Yarmouth and for the inspiration train.

87's and 86's there now living out their lives abroad in Bulgaria.

A few 08's for various use cases.

37029 , 20016 , Various 117 , 108 and other MK1 DMU's have escaped for preservation.

 

[Southern Dvr]

319's that were stored there were converted to 769's and are now with northern.

The class 96/3 heating cars are now in Use with ERS for keeping rolling stock warm at Gt Yarmouth and for the inspiration train.

87's and 86's there now living out their lives abroad in Bulgaria.

A few 08's for various use cases.

37029 , 20016 , Various 117 , 108 and other MK1 DMU's have escaped for preservation.

319/769 isn’t necessarily a success story for LM to be proud of!

The others are fair points though.

Still think the 350/2s are done for, just can’t see anywhere for them to go and cold storage will do them no good at all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

319's that were stored there were converted to 769's and are now with northern.

The class 96/3 heating cars are now in Use with ERS for keeping rolling stock warm at Gt Yarmouth and for the inspiration train.

87's and 86's there now living out their lives abroad in Bulgaria.

A few 08's for various use cases.

37029 , 20016 , Various 117 , 108 and other MK1 DMU's have escaped for preservation.

Weren't some of the D-stock vehicles that became 484s for Island Line stored at Long Marston at one point?

 

[778]

319/769 isn’t necessarily a success story for LM to be proud of!

The others are fair points though.

Still think the 350/2s are done for, just can’t see anywhere for them to go and cold storage will do them no good at all.

I don't think GBR would want the negative headlines they would get for scrapping perfectly good trains that are only 15 years old.

 

[Mikey C]

A massive difference between stored stock near the end of its life, and the 350/2s which have 2 decades of life left, and are virtually the same as hundreds of other Desiros very successfully operating in the UK.

 

[Nym]

Has anything come out of Marston and lived?

All of the Network Rail Class 153s.
769/5s
1996 Tube Stock and 1995 Tube Stock...
Countless CAF and Bombardier units for West Midlands Railway.

153 371 is alive and kicking at GCR.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Weren't some of the D-stock vehicles that became 484s for Island Line stored at Long Marston at one point?

Not the best example. They’re not exactly reliable.

I don't think GBR would want the negative headlines they would get for scrapping perfectly good trains that are only 15 years old.

If they’re that good why are they there?

A massive difference between stored stock near the end of its life, and the 350/2s which have 2 decades of life left, and are virtually the same as hundreds of other Desiros very successfully operating in the UK.

Plenty of stock (332 for example) had plenty of life left in it and yet that was scrapped. The reality is, the 350/2 has no home and no likelihood of one. The Northern suggestion has gone quiet, and I suspect that’s why they are now being stored off of the OHLE.

 

[Nym]

If they’re that good why are they there?

Because ROSCOs play a dangerous game.

 

[Mamorin]

(332 for example) had plenty of life left in it

332s were life expired due to not have TPWS and being in very poor shape.

 

[Trainbike46]

If they’re that good why are they there?

The fact that the 350s owned by one ROSCO were kept, and the ones owned by another were replaced makes quite clear where the issue lies, and it's not the trains.

Because ROSCOs play a dangerous game.

Exactly

 

[Olivine]

332s were life expired due to not have TPWS and being in very poor shape.

Weren’t they absolutely knackered when someone looked at the stock properly?