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On what routes, if any does on train catering make a profit?

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philosopher

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This comment on the Catering On Trains - A Healty Approach suggests that almost all train catering loses money.
They almost always lose money.
Therefore, my question is what, if any, services that have on train catering, does this catering make a profit, in that it makes more money than the costs to run the catering service? I assume the London to Scotland routes would have the best chance of making a profit.
 
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dk1

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This comment on the Catering On Trains - A Healty Approach suggests that almost all train catering loses money.

Therefore, my question is what, if any, services that have on train catering, does this catering make a profit, in that it makes more money than the costs to run the catering service? I assume the London to Scotland routes would have the best chance of making a profit.
I would imagine so. Anglia restaurant cars were almost breaking even before the 2008 financial crisis which NXEA then used to withdraw the service. I would imagine LNER come close to breaking even but are very heavily staffed. Everything else surely can’t and TfW must be an absolute basket case.
 

SuspectUsual

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I suppose it depends how the financials are calculated. The direct costs and income are relatively easy to quantify, but others on both sides of the equation are not. For example on the costs side vehicle provision / maintenance; loss of income if the restaurant car was repurposed to seating. On the revenue side how many passengers upgrade from standard to first for the food? How many only travel by rail rather than drive because of the food?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Premium / luxury rail tours? Such as those offered by the likes of Northern Belle? £799 per person day out to Cheltenham, anyone?
 

dk1

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Premium / luxury rail tours? Such as those offered by the likes of Northern Belle? £799 per person day out to Cheltenham, anyone?
To be fair that isn’t just a trip to Cheltenham, that’s to the Gold Cup with admission. Transfers even includes a steam train ride on the GWSR. All in all a fantastic days racing.
 

prasa

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Caledonian Sleeper - For catering I believe it is profit accretive, particularly as if removed most of the crew (bar a few) would still be required onboard for fire safety purposes. I believe as a TOC it has focused the most on revenue generation for catering - onboard crews have revenue targets and goals to reach and catering performance is closely monitored. In addition, it's viewed as a USP for the service and tied to the overall guest proposition.
 

pokemonsuper9

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I could imagine some long distance Avanti services (e.g. London - Glasgow on the super fast) making money.
Anyone sitting in coaches D-G will see staff for at seat service headed for Standard Premium and First Class passengers if it's quiet enough for them to fit.
 

deltic

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The Intercity Story by Chris Green and Mike Vincent reported that the level of subsidy for intercity catering was 9% in 1989/90 which was increased to 14% with the provision of free hot drinks to first class passengers. On-board catering is virtually always loss-making but is offered to attract additional patronage. As @SuspectUsual highlights it depends on how costs are allocated.
 

ChiefPlanner

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When the long gone SRA let the Wales and Borders franchise back in the last century - basically a low growth excercise - there was no requirement for any on board train catering , however one of the bidders offered a service on "Alphaline" services from 0700 to 2100 roughly for a pretty modest price for the whole franchise area.

So it was written it , and contractualised - one of the factors for consideration that the staff providing such a service obviously provided a passenger benefit , and of course acted as a conduit of recruitment (subject to the usual caveats) , for traincrew etc posts. (as well as providings jobs in the areas served)
 
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Howardh

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On a train there's a captive audience; you either bring your own or rely on the caterers, and Avanti is pretty good value compared with, for example, the shop on Bolton station!! Means I don't have to leave Piccadilly Station to find a shop when prices on board aren't much more. Does Avanti make a profit (those with Club Avanti get a free brew anyway!)?

What bothers me is when on a TPE train (6 carriages split 3 and 3) if the trolley is not in your section there's no chance of using it, and I find there's no way of knowing which section it's in. maybe it could be included on the display? It means that pax can't use it and therefore there's no income from them.
 
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What bothers me is when on a TPE train (6 carriages split 3 and 3) if the trolley is not in your section there's no chance of using it, and I find there's no way of knowing which section it's in. maybe it could be included on the display? It means that pax can't use it and therefore there's no income from them.
Trolley always in the front set*
*unless reversals, where it'll be in the front set from where catering starts, or train is very late and can't swap sets at terminus due to no time (fx Liverpool)
 

Adrian1980uk

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I'm not sure catering brings many extra passengers but it does add to the experience if done right, I'm sure it's probably break even / profitable on the London Scotland runs but I can't think of anywhere else it would stand a chance. Trolley services are so inconsistent, no one is going to rely on them and then the classic Greater Anglia bacon roll that may or may not be available depending on if you get a Stansted express or InterCity 745, be very disappointed if you didn't get it in the station and a Stansted unit turns up.

How many lost sales due to unreliability across the network, would those actually turn it into break even or slight profit?
 

KHCT

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As others have indicated, it all depends how you analyse the costs v's benefits, ie does it attract more custom. I suspect that providing catering has a minimal effect on passenger numbers; the open access operators on the ECML don't have an issue filling their first class seats despite having a much lower quality first class catering offer.

Also consider the staff costs. If you employ someone full time (37.5) on mimimum wage (which I imagine very few rail catering staff are on), the true cost to the business of employing them is around £27,000 per year (see https://www.talkstaff.co.uk/true-cost-employing-minimum-wage-2025/ ) or £13.85 per hour. Then factor in all the other costs beyond the one person selling items, and you have to shift a fair few drinks and chocolate bars just to break even.
 

185

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A good example of catering, was, after three successive companies went bust, on a "short term" basis, one train company went 'self employed'. Basically, the stuff was bought from a supplier & management company, the staff got no wages, just a uniform.

A prepacked Kenco cup of tea, coffee or hot chocolate was bought for £0.66 and sold for £1. (ie supplier 66%, concessionaire 34%)
Most items on the trolley were 34% except Sandwiches, 50% - as these are often unsold & wasted.
In some weeks, staff would take £900, and keep £300. In some weeks, staff would take £1800, and keep £600.

Unsurprisingly, this was the most successful catering operation the railway had ever known. Keen staff, flying through the train, almost zero sickness, every train covered, no shortage of applicants.

Now, 25 years later, that wouldn't happen. Unfortunately, with all the RailGourmets etc ...vulture firms wanting to take a cut pushing coffee to £3.50, catering will never be profitable. But this proves a point - the cheap £1 coffee will sell, if advertised well.

Other than settling for vending machines - the train company should directly employ the staff, manage them well to ensure high coverage and other than booze, resist the temptation to sell luxury junk - just cheapo Kenco(ish) coffee for £1. Those instant £1 coffees will sell out and make far more profit than seen on one current (failed) intercity company, not unknown to sell just three cups of not "Starbucks" at £3.40 a tepid cup - on a busy 250 seat five-car train.
 

1D54

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You often see catering staff pushing their wares through trains without saying a single word and then there are others who have a good sales pitch telling people what they have.

ODEG in Germany often have a menu in standard class and they seem to do very well without pushing a trolley. They take orders and go and fetch what you want.
 

Fokx

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What bothers me is when on a TPE train (6 carriages split 3 and 3) if the trolley is not in your section there's no chance of using it, and I find there's no way of knowing which section it's in. maybe it could be included on the display? It means that pax can't use it and therefore there's no income from them.
Always the front 3 with reservations
(Coaches ABC)
 

GordonT

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I'm not sure catering brings many extra passengers but it does add to the experience if done right, I'm sure it's probably break even / profitable on the London Scotland runs but I can't think of anywhere else it would stand a chance. T
Would the likes of Manchester-London and Bristol-London not potentially be on a par with London/Scotland daytime services having regard to relative crew costs and the relatively "lean" traffic especially off-season on the WCML north of Preston itself shared between Avanti and TPE and to an extent north of Newcastle divvied up between LNER, Cross Country and Lumo? Manchester-London and Bristol-London are largely served by monopoly providers.
 

Lemmy99uk

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I was under the impression they are volunteers with all profits going back into the FOSCL.
I know the guides are volunteers but I believe the catering staff are paid. The last set of accounts of the Development Company declares 20 employees and I can’t think where that many paid staff could be utilised, other than catering.
I’m sure someone with inside knowledge will confirm one way or the other.
 

Dr Hoo

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My take on this issue is that with the ever-increasing take-up of Advanced/Specific train tickets more people make sure that they are at the origin in good time. This is not an issue with Open tickets, at least on routes with fairly frequent services. So, having arrived at Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham New Street, Cambridge (or wherever), usually with time to spare, they are then ideally placed to pop into station retail and stock up on refreshments for all but the longest journeys. For example, I often change at Doncaster or Stockport. There is ample time to actually leave the station to go to Sainsbury's just across the road/outside.

Clearly, if the incoming connection is late it may be necessary to skip the dash but I always carry a small drink and a snack in my bag anyway. I hardly ever use on-train refreshment facilities even if they are available.
 

philosopher

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If there was not all those fast food outlets at stations, on train would definitely make a profit.
Station catering has definitely improved considerably over the last 30 years, so this would obviously reduce demand for on train catering.
At most stations, there is going to be far more choice and better quality options from the station outlets. There is also the risk that the catering on the train will not unavailable even if the service is advertised as having catering.
 
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