Avanti shenanigans at Preston again today

[Horizon22]

Perhaps @Horizon22 will drop you an apology for responding so robustly when they were ill informed on the matter and we can move on, it happens.

Not really. It remains the case that breaks are mandated part of any person's work - whether that occurs "on train" or not is a separate matter - they are simply not available to do booked duties during that time and could theoretically refuse if push came to shove. Not taking that into consideration by anyone who works in control or resource management is a very dangerous game to play.

 

[LowLevel]

Not really. It remains the case that breaks are mandated part of any person's work - whether that occurs "on train" or not is a separate matter - they are simply not available to do booked duties during that time and could theoretically refuse if push came to shove. Not taking that into consideration by anyone who works in control or resource management is a very dangerous game to play.

They are not due a certain break of a certain length at particular times in the diagram which is what you wrote and implied the other poster was not only incorrect but couldn't possibly do the role they are employed as because their statement is different to your own understanding.

Avanti Train Managers take their breaks between station stops on moving trains and if they have to get up to do something, that is what they do. Their wages are above average because that is what they've agreed to. East Mids train managers were exactly the same.

It is written in that breaks are taken with due regard to providing the service when suitable time allows - I've been there myself with identical T&Cs regarding breaks being subject to the requirements of providing the service in a safety critical role.

I am afraid your statement was factually incorrect and caused another poster offence when you effectively called them a liar.

 

[NeakPed]

They are not due a certain break of a certain length at particular times in the diagram which is what you wrote and implied the other poster was not only incorrect but couldn't possibly do the role they are employed as because their statement is different to your own understanding.

Avanti Train Managers take their breaks between station stops on moving trains and if they have to get up to do something, that is what they do. Their wages are above average because that is what they've agreed to. East Mids train managers were exactly the same.

It is written in that breaks are taken with due regard to providing the service when suitable time allows - I've been there myself with identical T&Cs regarding breaks being subject to the requirements of providing the service in a safety critical role.

I am afraid your statement was factually incorrect and caused another poster offence when you effectively called them a liar.

The same circumstances apply to Controllers. Grab a bite to eat during a quiet time.
On too many occasions, after a rough shift, I’ve ate my sandwiches over a pint (or two) in the pub.

 

[Judith hambly]

The same circumstances apply to Controllers. Grab a bite to eat during a quiet time.
On too many occasions, after a rough shift, I’ve ate my sandwiches over a pint (or two) in the pub.

If i was a controller on a 12 hour shift id be having a break regardless of service implications . its illegal to work 12 hours without a break

 

[Falcon1200]

On too many occasions, after a rough shift, I’ve ate my sandwiches over a pint (or two) in the pub.

On one occasion in Control, not only my pot noodle but the spoon too went in the bin when the railway fell to pieces.

If i was a controller on a 12 hour shift id be having a break regardless of service implications

That's fine if their is someone fully competent to take over the desk, answer the phones and deal with whatever transpires. That has not always been the case, Control itself being regarded by some as an expensive luxury, never mind extra staff for meal break relief.

Many, many years ago Drivers could be asked to sacrifice their PNB during disruption, and were paid a 'Spoilt break' allowance; This possibly applied to suburban work only. No longer a practice, rightly so.

 

[SuspectUsual]

its illegal to work 12 hours without a break

No it isnt.

It is almost certainly illegal to require someone to work 12 hours without a break, but if the worker is willing to and it doesn’t breach any other legislation (eg drivers hours) its absolutely fine

 

[D1511]

Time for a new exercise with an incident north of Preston on the WCML focussing on Avanti, because they clearly haven't got the slightest clue what to do today. Utter shambles.

 

[NeakPed]

If i was a controller on a 12 hour shift id be having a break regardless of service implications . its illegal to work 12 hours without a break

Would you care to quote the legislation for this ?
Maybe it will help Controllers (and other staff)

Nothing has changed in the 30+ years in that environment. What were we missing ?

 

[LCC106]

I vaguely remember the Working Time Directive having specific rules surrounding railway workers. Whilst anyone working over 6 hours is legally entitled to a break, there are certain exceptions on the railway. Depending how busy a signal box or control centre is, these could be exempt. Here’s a link to the ORR RSD Internal Guidance document I found on ORR.gov.uk while searching for the regs. Hope I’ve not broken any rules, no good at linking! https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...-working-time-regulations-1998-as-amended.pdf

 

[Horizon22]

Many, many years ago Drivers could be asked to sacrifice their PNB during disruption, and were paid a 'Spoilt break' allowance; This possibly applied to suburban work only. No longer a practice, rightly so.

Pretty sure "spolit PNBs" still exist at some operators, but is still an ask with a refusal option.

 

[glenbogle]

Broken rail north of Penrith causing misery for the third day in a row between Scotland and Preston.

 

[thealexweb]

Broken rail north of Penrith causing misery for the third day in a row between Scotland and Preston.

These things happen, it’s understandable.

What we cannot tolerate is Avanti turning all services back at Preston. We do expect a minimal service to run up to whatever the last station is before the blockage that supports turning back.

 

[hexagon789]

These things happen, it’s understandable.

What we cannot tolerate is Avanti turning all services back at Preston. We do expect a minimal service to run up to whatever the last station is before the blockage that supports turning back.

Looks like they are running some trains through, Single Line Working presumably.

The 1330 Euston to Glasgow is just approaching Penrith now for example, though 78 late.

A couple of TPEs went through earlier, including a Manchester to Edinburgh held at Penrith for almost 3 hours.

 

[Falcon1200]

Pretty sure "spolit PNBs" still exist at some operators, but is still an ask with a refusal option.

Thanks. I thought that had ended with the increased focus on Driver alertness.

 

[trainophile]

Seems like there's currently an absolute shambles on the WCML due to a broken rail on the northbound track, but seems to be affecting both directions. It's all over Twitter/X. Multiple people potentially stranded. To add insult to injury Avanti are saying there's no ticket acceptance with TPE, and today's tickets are not valid for tomorrow.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Also it seems like the last Avanti London to Glasgow service this evening is terminating at Preston, due to no Driver.

I've no idea if replacement busses are on hand at Preston.

Edit: Also the 19:28 and 20:31 Euston to Preston are both terminating at Crewe this evening.

 

[MatthewHutton]

No they do not have identical diagrams. The diagrams nowadays are so tight, more so on the southern end of the route but also, the Scottish drivers have some turn arounds at Preston where a delay of only 8/9 minutes will affect the return working due to the need for a PNB. It’s why the service recovery is so frequently poor. Time and time again management have been told, but at the end of the day it comes down to cost and productivity, is the line used.

Going back to the original issue, I imagine what has happened here is the signallers have complained to Avanti that the set was taking up a platform and needs to be moved asap as would be causing congestion. Always a problem at Preston during these incidents due to platform capacity. And they have made a decision to get the set on the move, probably a panicked decision, without checking that the TM was only a few minutes away. As above, Avanti TMs do not have PNBs in diagrams so it really wouldn’t have been long. These types of rushed decisions are made frequently during major disruption and unfortunately the passengers bear the brunt. I also imagine the crew wouldn’t have been very happy either, given they would now be home late.

There are what 10 trains an hour per direction at Preston and 7 platforms in use? Why is that not more than sufficient even if one platform is temporarily occupied for an extended period?

Surely 4 of the platforms or even less would be sufficient to handle the full service in an emergency?

 

[nlogax]

Looks like they are running some trains through, Single Line Working presumably.

The 1330 Euston to Glasgow is just approaching Penrith now for example, though 78 late.

A couple of TPEs went through earlier, including a Manchester to Edinburgh held at Penrith for almost 3 hours.

Sounds like I just scraped through before everything went wrong, was on the very last TPE from Piccadilly to Glasgow of the morning and the journey was faultless, even made up all of its ten minute delay.

 

[TUC]

Seems like there's currently an absolute shambles on the WCML due to a broken rail on the northbound track, but seems to be affecting both directions. It's all over Twitter/X. Multiple people potentially stranded. To add insult to injury Avanti are saying there's no ticket acceptance with TPE, and today's tickets are not valid for tomorrow.

We were caught up in the effects of that in that we were travelling from Euston to Hebden Bridge via Warrington Bank Quay (as a better alternative to the ECML closure than a RRB and several changes). Our train from London departed 44 minutes late, due to the train manager being on an incoming late service, meaning we would miss the last connection from Warrington. The train manager was really helpful, working with us to identify alternative connections and writing an authorisation note for the change of route.

 

[Bikeman78]

No it isnt.

It is almost certainly illegal to require someone to work 12 hours without a break, but if the worker is willing to and it doesn’t breach any other legislation (eg drivers hours) its absolutely fine

Been there, done that, didn't even get a t-shirt. It is what it is.

 

[The Planner]

There are what 10 trains an hour per direction at Preston and 7 platforms in use? Why is that not more than sufficient even if one platform is temporarily occupied for an extended period?

Surely 4 of the platforms or even less would be sufficient to handle the full service in an emergency?

6, "7" isn't passenger rated. 1 and 2 are effectively for the Blackburn/Blackpool routes. Leaves you with 4 platforms, they soon fill up if there are issues further north.

 

[Horizon22]

There are what 10 trains an hour per direction at Preston and 7 platforms in use? Why is that not more than sufficient even if one platform is temporarily occupied for an extended period?

Surely 4 of the platforms or even less would be sufficient to handle the full service in an emergency?

Because unless you "step up" departures, you have to account for the whole of journey time that is Preston > Scotland > turnaround time at terminus > Preston which is a considerable length. If you have crew available for an earlier departure time from Preston that is good, but a big if.

 

[MatthewHutton]

6, "7" isn't passenger rated. 1 and 2 are effectively for the Blackburn/Blackpool routes. Leaves you with 4 platforms, they soon fill up

But excluding the Blackburn/blackpool services there are only what 9tph in both directions? (barrow/windermere-Manchester, Edinburgh/glasgow-manchester, Glasgow/edinburgh-birmingham, Glasgow-London and occasionally Glasgow/edinburgh-liverpool) So 4 platforms still seems pretty comfortable. Especially as there are other stations to the north where there are only two platforms and some services skip Oxenholme and/or Penrith so there has to be reasonable spacing between trains.

I assume the 7th platform is miscounted and is one of the two bay platform to the south used for some local services.

 

[Elecman]

But excluding the Blackburn/blackpool services there are only what 7tph in both directions? So 4 platforms still seems pretty comfortable. Especially as there are other stations to the north where there are only two platforms and some services skip Oxenholme and/or Penrith so there has to be reasonable spacing between trains.

I assume the 7th platform is miscounted and is one of the two bay platform to the south used for some local services.

If your counting the 2 bay platforms ( which are no good for intercity trains ) then you have 8 platforms plus the old PCD and ‘platform 7 which cannot be used for passenger trains although empty stock can be accomodate on them if necessary.

 

[Bow Fell]

I completely get the frustration, but in such circumstances such as these, Network Rail will approach the TOC and say you need to thin the service out, as it’s becoming unmanageable, taking into account signaller workload etc, especially if the disruption on the patch involves the signaller sorting line blockages too. There are agreed contingency plans but its case of sometimes one size doesn’t fit all and it has to be adjusted.

That’s not playing the blame game by the way, I’ve had these exact conversations first hand, where I’ve been requested to thin the service out, or I’ve approached Network Rail myself, seeing how we can manage the disruption better by removing entire diagrams or service groups for example.

 

[MatthewHutton]

I completely get the frustration, but in such circumstances such as these, Network Rail will approach the TOC and say you need to thin the service out, as it’s becoming unmanageable, taking into account signaller workload etc, especially if the disruption on the patch involves the signaller sorting line blockages too. There are agreed contingency plans but its case of sometimes one size doesn’t fit all and it has to be adjusted.

That’s not playing the blame game by the way, I’ve had these exact conversations first hand, where I’ve been requested to thin the service out, or I’ve approached Network Rail myself, seeing how we can manage the disruption better by removing entire diagrams or service groups for example.

i think a lot of the emergency planning leaves a lot to be desired to be honest. I think better planning would help.

e.g. If there is disruption north of Preston blocking one track you probably do London-glasgow (fast) and Manchester-Edinburgh as your two trains an hour. and if there is space you keep barrow-Manchester in play as well - otherwise that can terminate at Lancaster.

 

[Horizon22]

i think a lot of the emergency planning leaves a lot to be desired to be honest. I think better planning would help.

e.g. If there is disruption north of Preston blocking one track you probably do London-glasgow (fast) and Manchester-Edinburgh as your two trains an hour. and if there is space you keep barrow-Manchester in play as well - otherwise that can terminate at Lancaster.

What about the southbound direction? That leads to conflicts and delays very quickly.

 

[NeakPed]

What about the southbound direction? That leads to conflicts and delays very quickly.

And there is the odd freight service about aswell

 

[MatthewHutton]

What about the southbound direction? That leads to conflicts and delays very quickly.

During disruption the Birmingham train can use one of the two spare platforms at Preston to terminate or go onto Blackpool north.

And there is the odd freight service about aswell

i assume when lines are blocked the freight is cancelled or rerouted.

 

[The Planner]

During disruption the Birmingham train can use one of the two spare platforms at Preston to terminate or go onto Blackpool north.

i assume when lines are blocked the freight is cancelled or rerouted.

Two issues, where are you diverting the freight, and there aren't enough crossovers to do single line working to a significant extent.