Car driver assist tech, safety and where such things might go

[bramling]

I actually think a lot of this is amplified by social media. The absolute number of fatalities, and absolute number of all casualties, has been on a steady decrease in the UK for over a decade. Deaths are down 5% and all casualties down a whopping 28% over the past 10 years alone.

Those are absolute numbers. The number of vehicle miles driven has risen 8.2% and the population risen 6.6% over the same period.

No doubt there's a whole host of measures at play here from 20mph zones to safer walking/cycling infrastructure to better crash safety features. But I fail to believe that driving standards have 'massively declined' given the injury and death data.

I suspect a large part of this view comes from social media. Every man and his dog has a dashcam or a headcam or a camera phone now. I find on social media I get loads of dashcam footage in my feeds. But in practice, for decades unconfident drivers have failed to join motorways properly, people have passed cyclists far too closely, and people have got behind the wheel after half a session down the Red Lion. It's just we didn't have people filming it all for Facebook. This is noticeable in Fife in particular where we have a social media page which has gathered even international attention called 'Fife jammer locations'. It was initially a page to post locatrions of the Polis with their speed guns, but it's basically become a Fife-wide news/gossip site. 50% of the latest 10 posts just now are about driving. If I hadn't looked at the page I would be none-the-wiser about any crash, despite being out for half an hour this morning, completely trouble-free. It makes it seem like the problem is worse than it is imo.

For what it's worth, as recent as 2021 (last full data year), the WHO puts the UK 10th in the world for road deaths per capita. Norway, Denmark, Sweden beat us, as well as a couple of tiny places like Niue or Monaco. There's room for improvement, but the UK is actually quite safe for driving.

I guess it’s a bit more nuanced. There may be an element of “rose tinted spectacles”, however it’s difficult to have a journey on something like the M25 or the southern end of the M1 without coming to the conclusion that the standard of driving is utterly abysmal. Is it any worse than 30 years ago? Guess it’s hard to say, as the roads are probably busier now (albeit with capacity added), so just in terms of numbers you’re more likely to encounter people whose standard of driving falls short.

From my experience of driving elsewhere in the country, generally the standard improves away from London and the south-east, a few urban areas excepted perhaps. So I guess if you’re used to driving somewhere like Wales or the north-east, the visible standard of driving probably isn’t that bad.

But it we just take my journey back from Henley to Hertfordshire last night, I could recount a list of probably approaching 50 instances of piss-poor driving, including several where an accident was only avoided because of someone else’s avoiding action. And this is in the evening when the roads weren’t massively busy. On top of that, countless instances of people doing silly irritating stiff like poor lane discipline, brake lights flashing on for no reason, fluctuating speed for no reason, driving at a ridiculously low speed for the road (18mph on a 40 mph road), failure to indicate properly, botched lane changes, parked in a dangerous place, etc etc etc. This is all fairly typical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I am seeing is a lot of what you might call "antisocial driving" which doesn't necessarily cause accidents if one is driving defensively as one should but makes road use less pleasant. Stuff like people lane hogging, messing with phones, tailgating, cutting up, wandering over the road, failing to indicate, driving excessively slowly, undertaking where you haven't had time to safely move back, speeding up when being overtaken, overtaking then slowing down etc. These things can cause accidents but usually don't as an attentive driver can easily work around them.

 

[bramling]

What I am seeing is a lot of what you might call "antisocial driving" which doesn't necessarily cause accidents if one is driving defensively as one should but makes road use less pleasant. Stuff like people lane hogging, messing with phones, tailgating, cutting up, wandering over the road, failing to indicate, driving excessively slowly, undertaking where you haven't had time to safely move back, speeding up when being overtaken, overtaking then slowing down etc. These things can cause accidents but usually don't as an attentive driver can easily work around them.

It’s one thing having to work round the occasional issue, however when it’s *constant* from start to finish, as is now often the case in the London area, eventually good luck is going to run out. The fact that the various sections of motorway round London, notably the M1 in particular, don’t seem to be able to go for long without accidents and disruption, shows that there’s an issue.

Given the level of ignorance shown, one does actually seriously wonder how some of these people manage to even find the way from their bed to being behind the steering wheel, since once there they seem to make a hash of pretty much every aspect of their driving.

 

[styles]

I did most of my driving lessons in London. I don't particularly enjoy driving in or around London. It's definitely worse than the rest of the country by headcount and DfT data backs that up. And that's considering London has a lower level of car ownership than the rest of the UK.

With the amount of congestion and lighting, I can't imagine things like adaptive cruise control or automatic main beams are much use as tech goes.

 

[cactustwirly]

I guess it’s a bit more nuanced. There may be an element of “rose tinted spectacles”, however it’s difficult to have a journey on something like the M25 or the southern end of the M1 without coming to the conclusion that the standard of driving is utterly abysmal. Is it any worse than 30 years ago? Guess it’s hard to say, as the roads are probably busier now (albeit with capacity added), so just in terms of numbers you’re more likely to encounter people whose standard of driving falls short.

From my experience of driving elsewhere in the country, generally the standard improves away from London and the south-east, a few urban areas excepted perhaps. So I guess if you’re used to driving somewhere like Wales or the north-east, the visible standard of driving probably isn’t that bad.

But it we just take my journey back from Henley to Hertfordshire last night, I could recount a list of probably approaching 50 instances of piss-poor driving, including several where an accident was only avoided because of someone else’s avoiding action. And this is in the evening when the roads weren’t massively busy. On top of that, countless instances of people doing silly irritating stiff like poor lane discipline, brake lights flashing on for no reason, fluctuating speed for no reason, driving at a ridiculously low speed for the road (18mph on a 40 mph road), failure to indicate properly, botched lane changes, parked in a dangerous place, etc etc etc. This is all fairly typical.

I hate the M1 with a passion, always very busy and always full of slow lane hoggers. Makes it difficult to change lanes and drift across to the exits

 

[bramling]

I hate the M1 with a passion, always very busy and always full of slow lane hoggers. Makes it difficult to change lanes and drift across to the exits

It’s the latter that’s the cause of a lot of the regular congestion. Abysmal lane discipline and speed selection, which then makes it hard for people turning off.

 

[MikeFromLFE]

I like a speed limiter for that situation, it helps me remember the limit when it is changing often e.g. on a smart motorway, a bit like the Driver Reminder Appliance reminds about a signal state. I use the limiter far more often than I do the cruise control.

I'm very much in favour of Intelligent Speed Control that offers me this without the need to set it manually, but most systems I've seen so far are rubbish, often failing to read signs correctly and not using GPS based backup to confirm outside of places where limits can change. I instead like to have Waze on the display which usually tells me the accurate limit (where fixed).

My new Ford Capri EV has an Intelligent Speed Limiter function. I cannot fathom how it works - I'm guessing it's a mixture of road signs and GPS data. It is generally accurate - I've seen one single strange anomaly where on a 40mph road (without junctions) which I use once a week it will set a 30mph limit for about 50 metres, the only guess I've got is that there were road works there at some point and the GPS system still thinks they are there!
It's certainly a function I wouldn't now be without.

 

[Mawkie]

What's interesting is that not all driver assistance systems are created equally - some are much better than others at what they do, with some being potentially lethal!

China recently tested 36 cars, from Tesla, to Mercedes, to VW, to Chinese brands and the results were surprising to me to say the least...

Dave Takes it On from YouTube has a lengthy diatribe about it. There are many other videos of the actual crashes and conditions on YouTube.

Car News China has the results for those that prefer to read.

The Chinese version of NCAP is now testing these systems as part of a car's overall safety rating. I think Euro NCAP are introducing similar rules in 2026?

 

[bramling]

What's interesting is that not all driver assistance systems are created equally - some are much better than others at what they do, with some being potentially lethal!

China recently tested 36 cars, from Tesla, to Mercedes, to VW, to Chinese brands and the results were surprising to me to say the least...

Dave Takes it On from YouTube has a lengthy diatribe about it. There are many other videos of the actual crashes and conditions on YouTube.

Car News China has the results for those that prefer to read.

The Chinese version of NCAP is now testing these systems as part of a car's overall safety rating. I think Euro NCAP are introducing similar rules in 2026?

This is where I can see all this going wrong, unless there are some very specific standards and specifications issued by a central body, so that all systems work basically the same way.

 

[gswindale]

We're currently on holiday in Scotland - having hired a car at Glasgow Airport.

So, lane assist - great apart from the fact it tried to steer me into the middle of the road under a low railway bridge because of markings for high vehicles to use the middle of the road. Thankfully not busy, but 2 cars using that in opposite directions could have been a collision. It also seemed to kick in occasionally on the A849, which was interesting as it is a single track road!

Haven't worked out what other tech the car has!

 

[Mawkie]

This is where I can see all this going wrong, unless there are some very specific standards and specifications issued by a central body, so that all systems work basically the same way.

The age old argument will ensue about which systems are the best!

Tesla have given up on the ubiquitous ultra sonic parking sensors, lidar, and radar, relying purely on cameras - so called Tesla Vision.

Other manufacturers are still using a wide range of physical equipment, each having its own name for their particular system. BYD call theirs "God's Eye"!

I'll admit I can't keep up with all the acronyms and naming conventions, so that could be a starting place.

 

[HOOVER29]

Personally I think too many gadgets make a worse driver!

A friend has just purchased an electric Peugeot, gadgets everywhere.
He wasn’t the world’s greatest driver to start with (nether am I).

Now he drives everywhere full on with the belief that the car will stop him if he throws it at the scenery

I told him this sort of gadgetry will only work perfectly if every other car has it fitted too.
That won’t be the case for at least 10 years, maybe more.
Unfortunately he’s younger than me so won’t listen.

Until then I think he’s living on borrowed time & it won’t be long before he gets caught out big time.

 

[Bikeman78]

Whilst it may appear close, the systems work because the 'thinking' time required before applying brakes is far far less than human reactions and brake application pressure is far higher, the total stopping distance is therefore far less than highway code figures My systems reacts to brake lights of the vehicle in front and the brakes are applied well before I could go for them.

That only works if all vehicles have such a system. I don't want my car to brake sharply in front of a lorry. I always leave a big gap ahead if there is a lorry close behind.

 

[Bikeman78]

This is a bit concerning. This video from Ashley Neal talks about cars braking sharply without any input from the driver. My car flashes up a warning and makes a loud noise if it thinks a collision is imminent but thankfully it doesn't apply the brakes.

 

[styles]

I have a lot of time for Ashley Neal.

I don't agree with all of his points here though. At around 0:40 he gives an example of overtaking a cyclist and lane assist pulling the car back into the lane. But, I can't remember ever having a lane where I'd have the 1.5m to overtake the cyclist and only being slightly towards the center line (whether it's a lane marker, hazard marker, etc). And in any case, this can be avoided by either going into the next lane (the usual requirement anyway to leave enough room), or flicking the indicator on before moving out (would be helpful in case the cyclist glances back just before you move out, or for other road users).

At around 0:50 he shows a clip where adaptive cruise control clocks a new speed limit and brakes to meet the new speed limit. Because it's actually a 300yd countdown marker, so an advance warning of a new limit, it might've braked a bit harder than needed, but two important points are that firstly you'd need to brake anyway, so the car behind should be anticipating this and starting to brake themselves regardless; and secondly Neal says that there was 'nothing I (sic) could do about it', but there was - just cancel cruise control using the gas pedal, which will also counter the braking if you think it's been a bit harsh. The issue here really is that ACC needs to be taught to recognise countdown markers, and brake more gently as a result. Should be a reasonably simple software change.

At around 1:00 he talks about an example of ACC braking as being the cause of a rear-ending. Except he rightly points out that liability will go against the driver behind, for not leaving a large enough gap, which is correct, it's not the fault of adaptive cruise control, but somebody tailgating.

I do agree about the right turn video though. I'd be sending the dashcam footage to the manufacturer to see if they have an answer. And I do agree that it's frustrating not being able to turn some of these features off.

There is an element of 'risk compensation' to consider, in that the sense of safety which comes with things like automatic emergency braking can subconsciously lead people to take other risks.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At around 0:50 he shows a clip where adaptive cruise control clocks a new speed limit and brakes to meet the new speed limit. Because it's actually a 300yd countdown marker, so an advance warning of a new limit, it might've braked a bit harder than needed, but two important points are that firstly you'd need to brake anyway, so the car behind should be anticipating this and starting to brake themselves regardless; and secondly Neal says that there was 'nothing I (sic) could do about it', but there was - just cancel cruise control using the gas pedal, which will also counter the braking if you think it's been a bit harsh. The issue here really is that ACC needs to be taught to recognise countdown markers, and brake more gently as a result. Should be a reasonably simple software change.

You wouldn't be braking harshly like the ACC did though- in fact depending on the specific conditions of the location you wouldn't necessarily need to brake at all, a whole 300yds ahead of the change in speed limit. Simply deactivating the cruise control and decelerating naturally would do much of the work.

I agree that programming (not "teaching"- it isn't sentient!) the ACC equipment to distinguish between countdown markers and actual speed limit signage would solve this problem, but the very fact that it can't do so at present means it should not have been allowed to be fitted to vehicles sold to the public. A bad system is worse than no system at all, and one that relies on technology that hasn't been tested or programmed adequately should never have been sanctioned by regulatory bodies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The accelerator does not normally cancel cruise control. It just gives an override for acceleration.

In most cars the brake or clutch does.

 

[Bikeman78]

At around 1:00 he talks about an example of ACC braking as being the cause of a rear-ending. Except he rightly points out that liability will go against the driver behind, for not leaving a large enough gap, which is correct, it's not the fault of adaptive cruise control, but somebody tailgating.

I do agree about the right turn video though. I'd be sending the dashcam footage to the manufacturer to see if they have an answer. And I do agree that it's frustrating not being able to turn some of these features off.

My car has a limit function and can also supposedly read speed limit signs. It then automatically changes the limit. Fortunately I can turn the latter bit off. The reading of the speed limit signs is haphazard, to say the least. It often fails to read the national speed limit sign, and it any case, national speed limit varies from road to road, and it won't go back to the limit I set beforehand.

I think the motorcyclist was a bit of a dimwit to be honest. I've sometimes got caught out on my bicycle with people in front slowing down for no apparent reason. I don't then give the driver an earful. It's my responsibility not to rear end someone.

 

[Harpo]

For our VW Golf I’ve the following auto systems issues when it’s on,
- Speed right side failures - Showing lower speed than signed.
- Speed wrong side failures - Shows higher speed than signage.
- Lane assist fighting me where one lane becomes two.
- Lane assist twitching steering on snow/iced roads.
- Full beam not on as soon as it would be manually.

Hence, each journey starts by disabling the crap and me choosing to drive the car how I was taught.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For our VW Golf I’ve the following auto systems issues when it’s on,
- Speed right side failures - Showing lower speed than signed.
- Speed wrong side failures - Shows higher speed than signage.
- Lane assist fighting me where one lane becomes two.
- Lane assist twitching steering on snow/iced roads.
- Full beam not on as soon as it would be manually.

Hence, each journey starts by disabling the crap and me choosing to drive the car how I was taught.

Auto-dipping headlights are really quite crap aren't they? For one thing they only dip once it detects oncoming traffic, by which time the drivers of those vehicles have already been dazzled. The mk1 human eyeball can detect oncoming traffic that's hidden to the sensors around a bend or in a dip, because we can see the beams.
Yes, sometimes drivers forget to dip their headlights until you flash them, but if the day comes when all cars have auto-dipping then every oncoming car will dazzle you for a second or two, rather than just a few of them.

 

[gswindale]

For our VW Golf I’ve the following auto systems issues when it’s on,
- Speed right side failures - Showing lower speed than signed.
- Speed wrong side failures - Shows higher speed than signage.
- Lane assist fighting me where one lane becomes two.
- Lane assist twitching steering on snow/iced roads.
- Full beam not on as soon as it would be manually.

Hence, each journey starts by disabling the crap and me choosing to drive the car how I was taught.

For my sins, I ended up with a Ford Puma in Scotland earlier this year. As it was only for a couple of weeks, I wasn't too bothered, but had to get used to ignoring the incessant beeping when driving "above" the speed limit - the limit being an advisory 20 around a school between 8:30 & 9:00 and 2:45 -3:30 (or similar) when travelling past at any time of day. The lane assist was incredibly annoying as most of the time we were on single track roads (with passing places), but every so often it would invent lane markings that didn't exist.

It did however, have a pretty clear reversing camera that made it relatively easy to reverse into passing places in a straight line unlike those in several BMW/Audi cars we came across!

 

[gabrielhj07]

I was lucky enough to drive a 2025 Nissan Juke last week, which, despite having all manner of 'safety' systems on board, was unable to sense the cyclist I was overtaking and tried to steer me into him, while also braking of its own accord. Reminded me why I turn those things off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was lucky enough to drive a 2025 Nissan Juke last week, which, despite having all manner of 'safety' systems on board, was unable to sense the cyclist I was overtaking, and tried to steer me into him, while also braking of its own accord. Reminded me why I turn those things off.

Mine (Kia Ceed) has a habit of trying to steer me into a wall if the centreline is such that the lane isn't wide enough for the car. Lane departure warning is good for long, boring motorway trips, but it really is a very dangerous thing to have turned on on a single carriageway road, and most systems have serious failings. Personally I turn it off by default and turn on the autosteer (rather than LDW) on motorway trips only.

 

[ABB125]

I had the pleasure of driving a basically new Ford Transit to Snowdonia over this weekend (only done 190 miles when I collected it - I more than doubled that mileage!). I had a go at testing the lane departure system on the M54 on the way up - it did quite a good job of following the lane round corners when I deliberately didn't steer, but then started telling me that I was fatigued and should rest immediately... (For the avoidance of doubt, I was fully prepared and ready to "take back control" during this experiment.) There were a few occasions on the smaller roads in the National Park when I could feel the van trying to steer itself, which was an interesting experience.
At one point I had to turn around, which I did via 3-point turn using a field entrance. This involved reversing uphill into the entrance, which was fine - except the van decided that a tuft of grass was an obstruction so it slammed on the brakes very violently, which was unexpected and not helpful.
(The van also went into limp mode at one point, refusing to exceed 12mph, but this isn't related to modern safety features. Still very annoying though!)

Unsurprisingly, no instructions on how to turn off any of these features (or what "safety" features actually exist) were provided by the hire company.

 

[styles]

I had the pleasure of driving a basically new Ford Transit to Snowdonia over this weekend (only done 190 miles when I collected it - I more than doubled that mileage!).

I had a 24 plate Corsa like that. It was in low double digits, as if I might have even been the first driver apart from it being shunted around from the factory to the hire company forecourt. Then I drove it from Edinburgh to Glenbrittle and back, with some time on Skye, over 500 miles over a long weekend

I had a go at testing the lane departure system on the M54 on the way up - it did quite a good job of following the lane round corners when I deliberately didn't steer, but then started telling me that I was fatigued and should rest immediately... (For the avoidance of doubt, I was fully prepared and ready to "take back control" during this experiment.)

I had this a Transit recently. I already knew I was fatigued actually and was trying to find somewhere to grab a bite to eat and a coffee and a nap. Pretty neat feature, though I'm not sure how it worked exactly.

There were a few occasions on the smaller roads in the National Park when I could feel the van trying to steer itself, which was an interesting experience.
At one point I had to turn around, which I did via 3-point turn using a field entrance. This involved reversing uphill into the entrance, which was fine - except the van decided that a tuft of grass was an obstruction so it slammed on the brakes very violently, which was unexpected and not helpful.
(The van also went into limp mode at one point, refusing to exceed 12mph, but this isn't related to modern safety features. Still very annoying though!)

I think this is the thing. A lot of these features work great on motorways and major trunk roads. I'm a bit less convinced of them on some of the 'back roads' round the Highlands.

Unsurprisingly, no instructions on how to turn off any of these features (or what "safety" features actually exist) were provided by the hire company.

I don't think I've ever been given any instructions by a hire company, whether it's been manual, automatic, a 1L C1 or a LWB Transit. Even when I've hired abroad, the only time I've had instructions beyond, "Remember, we drive on the right.", has been in Iceland where they basically told you how to avoid driving in an atrocious blizzard and please keep hold of the door when you open it as the wind can and does take the doors off on some cars.

 

[Egg Centric]

I don't think I've ever been given any instructions by a hire company, whether it's been manual, automatic, a 1L C1 or a LWB Transit. Even when I've hired abroad, the only time I've had instructions beyond, "Remember, we drive on the right.", has been in Iceland where they basically told you how to avoid driving in an atrocious blizzard and please keep hold of the door when you open it as the wind can and does take the doors off on some cars.

There's a place in Berlin where you can hire Trabants, they will give you a full briefing and if you've not driven one trust me you'll need it!

 

[styles]

There's a place in Berlin where you can hire Trabants, they will give you a full briefing and if you've not driven one trust me you'll need it!

That sounds awesome though!

 

[edwin_m]

There's a place in Berlin where you can hire Trabants, they will give you a full briefing and if you've not driven one trust me you'll need it!

I doubt they have many driver assist or safety features to worry about though.

 

[hawthorn23]

Continuing this in a new thread:



I'd question how good tech is that knows if you're too close to the car in front. I drove a friend's car last week which had adaptive cruise control, and on none of the settings did I feel comfortably distant from the car in front - the "nearest" setting I felt was downright dangerous and well under the "two second rule" which is an absolute bare minimum in perfect conditions. I personally think it should not be legal for these systems to allow closer than the Highway Code stopping distances, and they should always brake (or at least lift off) to re-create the distance as soon as safely possible if someone cuts you up - the system on his car (a newish Qashqai) did not, and I found that dangerous to the point of quite scary.

There are also considerations like how far the next car to overtake is and how busy the motorway is, and if it is three or four lanes. Changing lane comes with risk in itself, so sometimes staying out for a second overtake is the best and safest approach where that overtake will be quite soon. Diving in and out at high speed as is common for drivers of premium German cars is really not a sensible practice.

So people shouldn't just sit in the middle lane while overtaking nothing, but if overtaking is taking place and is about to take place again there are too many variables for sensible automation.



I do like blind spot assist, yes. My car doesn't have it, but it is nice to have as an addition to turning your head (not instead of it!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2025 ==

FWIW an automatic move left feature could be quite dangerous if someone is trying to pass on the left at speed, a lazy act which is encouraged by adaptive cruise control. It is most annoying when you are overtaking someone, they pull back in and before you have chance to execute the correct checks, indicate and move left (NEVER move at the same time as them as it removes their ability to abort the manoeuvre if something happens) some idiot in a premium German car (rent urus dubai) shoots past 20mph over the limit, followed by several more which make getting back over difficult.

Yeah, I get what you mean. Some of these systems are more stressful than helpful at the moment. I’d rather keep control myself than trust a car that doesn’t seem to understand what “safe distance” really means.

 

[Mawkie]

I'd question how good tech is that knows if you're too close to the car in front. I drove a friend's car last week which had adaptive cruise control, and on none of the settings did I feel comfortably distant from the car in front - the "nearest" setting I felt was downright dangerous and well under the "two second rule" which is an absolute bare minimum in perfect conditions.

I'm sadly old enough to remember "Only a fool breaks the two second rule" adverts, but that must have been set in the 1970s when cars were still on cross-ply tyres and had no ABS.

Is there an argument that manufacturers know the limitations of their vehicles and brakes and have set the systems accordingly?

I must admit I set my adaptive cruise control to the furthest setting, but it does mean that drivers often pull in front of me to leave the motorway at the last minute. (My car does react quickly to this situation, but I think it monitors the relative risk of two cars going at high speed for a couple of seconds in close proximity rather than the actual risk that any car in front will suddenly pull in front and stop dead.)