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Bus Driver Strikes - Lancashire and Greater Manchester

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mayneway

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Not really, they have done their best to eradication operator names so everything is Bee Network. That means if the bus doesn't run many people will link it to the Bee Network not to Metroline as they might not even be aware their bus service is operated by Metroline (some will still think it is run by Stagecoach!)
Ironically the majority of people in and around Tameside still think all the buses locally are run by Stagecoach. When it was announced last Sunday stagecoach wouldn’t be striking the Tameside council leader posted ALL buses in Tameside would now be running. Obviously that wasn’t the case.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Ironically the majority of people in and around Tameside still think all the buses locally are run by Stagecoach. When it was announced last Sunday stagecoach wouldn’t be striking the Tameside council leader posted ALL buses in Tameside would now be running. Obviously that wasn’t the case.
I hope that someone put the Tameside council leader correct in their misunderstanding. Andy Burnham as Mayor would not be happy to hear that a leader of a council area was unaware of what the Bee Network franchising entailed and with what operators in their particular area.
 
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Stan Drews

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The majority of politicians at all levels and of all flavours, are utterly clueless about the structure of the bus industry (commercial, franchised, or tendered) and how it works.
 

mayneway

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I hope that someone put the Tameside council leader correct in his misunderstanding. Andy Burnham as Mayor would not be happy to hear that a leader of a council area was unaware of what the Bee Network franchising entailed and with what operators in their particular area.
It was a her not a him and yes I pointed out that most Tameside services would NOT be running.
 

Megafuss

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Not a good comparison to my way of thinking. What appears to be the case is that the bus operators are only there to provide the bus service, whereas TfGM take the fares revenue. Normally in industrial disputes, it is the company that is targetted by the trades union, to cause loss of finance from trading, whereas in this TfGM instance, the trades unions take a different view of that matter. As others have said, if the bus operators cannot run bus services as the trades union have called strike action, they can be subjected to financial strictures by TfGM who can make replacement lost fares revenue by applying financial strictures to the bus operators for not running bus services instead.
Appreciate TfGM take the revenue risk on it's contracts, but how is it actually managed?

Do operators keep the revenue and TfGM pay then the balance each month?

If so, isn't it just a simple job of TfGM just not paying for work that isn't being done?
 

mangad

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So the affected areas are those where changes of previous bus operators by this franchising system took place and the subsequent introduction of the Metroline interloper.
Stockport depot was on strike and they were Stagecoach before and after Bee Network.
 

Tim33160

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Advertised bus driver salaries from Indeed job and other sites

First Bus Manchester £14.51 per hour

(Rochdale - former Rosso depot) (comparable Transdev rates: The Blackburn Bus Company £14.97 - £15.97 an hour

Stagecoach Manchester
Stockport: Middleton:
£17 per hour Plus optional overtime
Queens Rd: £17.54 hourly rate with valid PCV licence. £19.20 Saturday hourly rate, £19.61 Sunday hourly rate
Oldham: £17 hourly rate with valid PCV licence. £18.60 Saturday hourly rate. £19 Sunday hourly rate
School bus driver at Little Hulton depot: Up to £17 p/h Earn up to £400 per week, £1,200 sign-on bonus. 5.6 weeks of holiday. Guaranteed 25 hours per week, 20 hour contracts can be arranged if required. Company pension and benefits. No weekend shifts

Go North West: based at Weston Street, Bolton £15.51 - £17.58 an hour
Wigan: £15.51 - £17.58 an hour
School Bus Driver Denton M34 3SG £13.56 - £16.54 an hour

Diamond Northwest Limited
Eccles M30 9QG From £17.25 an hour
Goodwin Street, Bolton From £17.25 an hour

Metroline Manchester
Sharston £17 an hour (increased rate for weekends & BH)
Wythenshawe £16.37 an hour (increased rate for weekends & BH)





 

TheSmiths82

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Appreciate TfGM take the revenue risk on it's contracts, but how is it actually managed?

Do operators keep the revenue and TfGM pay then the balance each month?

If so, isn't it just a simple job of TfGM just not paying for work that isn't being done?

As far as I understand it all the ticket machines are owned by TFGM and all the revenue goes straight to them. The bus companies are simply paid to run the buses, however there are penalties in place if the bus services don't run due to the fault of the company. In the cases of a strike then that would be deemed the companies fault. If however a service can't run due to road closures or road works then it would be the TFGM that take the hit on the lost revenue.
 

TheSmiths82

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Has that been the decision reached in a matter of legal process?

I thought strikes where usually considered something the company can control, otherwise if bus companies are still getting paid the same what incentive have they got to end the strikes? They may as well not run any services if they are not losing any revenue.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Advertised bus driver salaries from Indeed job and other sites

First Bus Manchester £14.51 per hour

(Rochdale - former Rosso depot) (comparable Transdev rates: The Blackburn Bus Company £14.97 - £15.97 an hour

Stagecoach Manchester
Stockport: Middleton:
£17 per hour Plus optional overtime
Queens Rd: £17.54 hourly rate with valid PCV licence. £19.20 Saturday hourly rate, £19.61 Sunday hourly rate
Oldham: £17 hourly rate with valid PCV licence. £18.60 Saturday hourly rate. £19 Sunday hourly rate
School bus driver at Little Hulton depot: Up to £17 p/h Earn up to £400 per week, £1,200 sign-on bonus. 5.6 weeks of holiday. Guaranteed 25 hours per week, 20 hour contracts can be arranged if required. Company pension and benefits. No weekend shifts


Metroline Manchester
Sharston £17 an hour (increased rate for weekends & BH)
Wythenshawe £16.37 an hour (increased rate for weekends & BH)
What rates of pay are being requested by the trades union in the three companies currently experiencing industrial action or are they asking for a percentage increase on current rates of pay?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Today,I boarded a service 368 (run by Metroline) in Heald Green to Stockport. It was one of the new yellow double decker buses and on the lower deck, there was a scrolling panel of TfGM information sheets on which one screen gave notice of six strike days this month on 10/11/13/18/23/24 days. I spoke to the Information Desk at Stockport Interchange who said only the first three of those six days had been confirmed and that the information screen on the bus would be reported.
 
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mayneway

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hat rates of pay are being requested by the trades union in the three companies currently experiencing industrial action or are they asking for a percentage increase on current rates of pay?
I believe they want £18.50 an hour which they have been offered but not until April 2026. It’s £18.00 April 2025 (back dated) rising to £18.50 next April. The union is dead against two or three year pay deals because nobody knows how things are going to be in April next year.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I believe they want £18.50 an hour which they have been offered but not until April 2026. It’s £18.00 April 2025 (back dated) rising to £18.50 next April. The union is dead against two or three year pay deals because nobody knows how things are going to be in April next year.
So for 50p an hour until April 2026, when the promised £18.50 an hour will then come into effect, I hope that TfGM realise that it is the union who are the cause of the strike days with no Bee Network bus services running on the affected routes should they then decide to issue financial strictures on the bus operators concerned for not running bus services on strike days.
 

GusB

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So for 50p an hour until April 2026, when the promised £18.50 an hour will then come into effect, I hope that TfGM realise that it is the union who are the cause of the strike days with no Bee Network bus services running on the affected routes should they then decide to issue financial strictures on the bus operators concerned for not running bus services on strike days.
It's easy to dismiss an extra 50p per hour when you're well-off, retired and unlikely to have to worry about being able to afford the basics.
 

M60lad

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Not to sure how true this is but from what I can gather I think quite a number of drivers are now wanting this sorting to be honest and would prefer to be out driving than be out on strike each week now and its the union that are stopping them from doing this each week.

Out of interest considering its the same union why have strikes at both First Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside and Lancashire been sorted with similar deals yet here in Manchester its near or has reached stalemate with a stubbedness by Stagecoach Manchester and Metroline?

Surely Stagecoach and Metroline want their staff in work so why aren't they listening to what their drivers are asking and give them what they want like they have with other companies?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It's easy to dismiss an extra 50p per hour when you're well-off, retired and unlikely to have to worry about being able to afford the basics.
The example that you quote above does not apply to a very large number of people of all ages in an area where both Metroline and Stagecoach Manchester are the only two operational bus companies. Taxi firms (including these with Wolverhampton plates who should not be there) are doing a roaring trade, from what one taxi driver was telling me.

A fellow bus passenger was wondering how TfGM/Bee Network would deal with the matter if it was only them who were running the bus services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Surely Stagecoach and Metroline want their staff in work so why aren't they listening to what their drivers are asking and give them what they want like they have with other companies?
That presupposes that the trades union get any sum they ask for in the knowledge they are certain to get it.
 
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Mollman

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Not to sure how true this is but from what I can gather I think quite a number of drivers are now wanting this sorting to be honest and would prefer to be out driving than be out on strike each week now and its the union that are stopping them from doing this each week.

Out of interest considering its the same union why have strikes at both First Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside and Lancashire been sorted with similar deals yet here in Manchester its near or has reached stalemate with a stubbedness by Stagecoach Manchester and Metroline?

Surely Stagecoach and Metroline want their staff in work so why aren't they listening to what their drivers are asking and give them what they want like they have with other companies?
That supposes they are asking for the same thing. One common theme is to compare rates to another company but not always the same one. So Lancashire might compare pay to Manchester but Manchester might compare pay to London.

The operators might be listening but if what is being asked for isn't affordable then they won't be looking to give it. The improved offer from April 26 might tie in with higher payments from TfGM.
 

CN12 AWU

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Shouldn't this page renamed just for Manchester now as Lancashire are not on strike now
 

mayneway

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So for 50p an hour until April 2026, when the promised £18.50 an hour will then come into effect, I hope that TfGM realise that it is the union who are the cause of the strike days with no Bee Network bus services running on the affected routes should they then decide to issue financial strictures on the bus operators concerned for not running bus services on strike days.
Things like the bridge strike in Barton a few Months ago highlight the job us drivers do and the huge responsibility we have on our shoulders. I don’t think 50p an hour more is asking for much considering what train drivers are on etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Out of interest considering its the same union why have strikes at both First Manchester and Stagecoach Merseyside and Lancashire been sorted with similar deals yet here in Manchester its near or has reached stalemate with a stubbedness by Stagecoach Manchester and Metroline?
I believe the offer that was put on the table for stagecoach and First was put to a members ballot with the union recommending the offer was rejected in both cases. Stagecoach did reject the offer but First voted to accept.

The bigger issue is the longer this goes on for the more the public go from supporting the drivers to condemning them for being ‘greedy’ etc.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Things like the bridge strike in Barton a few Months ago highlight the job us drivers do and the huge responsibility we have on our shoulders. I don’t think 50p an hour more is asking for much considering what train drivers are on etc.
I do not doubt for a moment what you say above, but the connection that you make with train drivers is one that forum members who are train drivers may have some comment to make upon.
 

mayneway

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I do not doubt for a moment what you say above, but the connection that you make with train drivers is one that forum members who are train drivers may have some comment to make upon.
My comment was aimed at you who kind of dismissed the 50p an hour ad nothing major.
Not sure if you work in the sector but let me tell you, I’m spat at, abused, cut up by taxi drivers etc etc on a daily basis. We now have the added pressure of trying to work to bee network rules etc driving on nearly impossible schedules.
I loved the job before Covid but it’s massively changed, people have changed and it’s not nice anymore.
I know for a fact that senior management at companies within the bee network take home huge bonuses for meeting compliance and punctuality targets so it’s about time a little bit of that was given to the drivers out there dealing with the roads and the public!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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My comment was aimed at you who kind of dismissed the 50p an hour ad nothing major.
Not sure if you work in the sector but let me tell you, I’m spat at, abused, cut up by taxi drivers etc etc on a daily basis. We now have the added pressure of trying to work to bee network rules etc driving on nearly impossible schedules.
I loved the job before Covid but it’s massively changed, people have changed and it’s not nice anymore.
I know for a fact that senior management at companies within the bee network take home huge bonuses for meeting compliance and punctuality targets so it’s about time a little bit of that was given to the drivers out there dealing with the roads and the public!
Have a look at Go North West's accounts - that 50p/hour x 1.6 (oncost) x 45 hrs/wk x 52 wks is about £1.9k per person.

There's about 900 blue collar staff (drivers and maintenance) so £1.7m. Total directors costs are £735k. Those "huge bonuses" are a fraction of the money that you'd be looking at.

Very sympathetic to all drivers and support staff but the "just take it from the bonuses of the managers" just doesn't hold water.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Advertised bus driver salaries from Indeed job and other sites

Metroline Manchester

Sharston £17 an hour (increased rate for weekends & BH)
Wythenshawe £16.37 an hour (increased rate for weekends & BH)
Metroline only entered the Bee Network at Tranche 3 commencement, so the only rate of pay so far has been what was offered to drivers joining the company at that time. I recall some Stagecoach Manchester drivers at their Daw Bank, Stockport depot telling me at the time that they would not TUPE across from their area routes, but would stay with Stagecoach Manchester even it meant working on the Tranche 2 routes that Stagecoach Manchester had taken over from other operators.

It has been said on this thread by other thread contributors that bus companies should have budgeted wage cost increases when preparing their tenders. Yesterday, in Stockport Bus Station, whilst talking to some Metroline drivers, I was told they wanted an increase of £1.00 hour. Would such a percentage increase to meet that demand been more than Metroline had budgeted for?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not sure if you work in the sector but let me tell you, I’m spat at, abused, cut up by taxi drivers etc etc on a daily basis. We now have the added pressure of trying to work to bee network rules etc driving on nearly impossible schedules.
I loved the job before Covid but it’s massively changed, people have changed and it’s not nice anymore.
I know for a fact that senior management at companies within the bee network take home huge bonuses for meeting compliance and punctuality targets so it’s about time a little bit of that was given to the drivers out there dealing with the roads and the public!
At the age of 80, it is 15 years since I retired as Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy, so I no longer work in any sector. Two years after retirement, in July 2012, I suffered a stroke and my stroke consultant demanded that I gave up driving the Saab 9000 for the sake of other road users, to which I immediately complied. My wife then used her Land Rover Discovery as our sole mode of transport until the year prior to her death in 2021 from Vascular Dementia, when Covid was in full blast, so I don't need reminding of how the population was Covid-affected. I moved into Greater Manchester at the start of this year from Cheshire East and when I received my TfGM-issued ENCTS pass, I immediately paid the £10.00 TfGM surcharge that also enables me to use Metrolink and train services within the TfGM-administered area of Greater Manchester.
 
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mayneway

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Have a look at Go North West's accounts - that 50p/hour x 1.6 (oncost) x 45 hrs/wk x 52 wks is about £1.9k per person.

There's about 900 blue collar staff (drivers and maintenance) so £1.7m. Total directors costs are £735k. Those "huge bonuses" are a fraction of the money that you'd be looking at.

Very sympathetic to all drivers and support staff but the "just take it from the bonuses of the managers" just doesn't hold water.
And ironically Go North west is the perfect example. They took over queens road several years ago. Immediately gave drivers a pay rise that made them the highest paying in Manchester which was great.
Couple of years later and the union and its members agreed a 3 year pay deal that’s still in place now.
Queens road drivers have gone from the best paid to some of the lowest paid because of that 3 year deal and I can completely understand why the unions are against it.

You might not agree with my opinion regarding bonuses but it’s the way it is. Hitting drivers with sticks and telling them to pee in bottles so they get their bonuses is unacceptable.
 

Djb1

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I think the Unions may have slightly shot themselves in the foot on this strike - IMO they should have proposed to continue to run dedicated school buses. Strikes are most successful when you keep as much of the public as possible onside, and also have the ability to ramp it up. Having school buses involved from the start has removed a lot of public support near me, and its also removed a bargaining chip for a sustained strike. The ability to ramp a strike up other than adding more full days appears to have gone, and action short of a strike seems to be a thing of the past.
 

mayneway

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I think the Unions may have slightly shot themselves in the foot on this strike - IMO they should have proposed to continue to run dedicated school buses. Strikes are most successful when you keep as much of the public as possible onside, and also have the ability to ramp it up. Having school buses involved from the start has removed a lot of public support near me, and its also removed a bargaining chip for a sustained strike. The ability to ramp a strike up other than adding more full days appears to have gone, and action short of a strike seems to be a thing of the past.
That wasn’t down to the union that’s down to the company and TFGM.
Nobody was sure on numbers that would continue to work during the first weekend of strike action so everything was cancelled. Drivers who were not on the union or continued to work were sat in canteens for their shifts.
During the second phase which saw only Metroline drivers strike, all drivers working were sent to Hyde Road and many operated 143’s and 147’s on TFGM’s insistence.

Again another example is in Rochdale. First realised they had a few spare drivers during the first phase and informed TFGM who requested that the 406 ran NOT schools.

Im fairly certain if the strikes continue for the bevy few months we will see more services continue to run as drivers trickle back to work.
 
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