Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[CN04NRJ]

Just saw 15 running an X4 which seems an unusual allocation

Looking at it's tracking history it's on driver training.

 

[stevenedin]

I noticed thar all of 291-294 are in service now instead of just 2.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Looking at it's tracking history it's on driver training.

Saw a photo on Facebook of it doing a 44, maybe they're training drivers as in service dupes?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Saw a photo on Facebook of it doing a 44, maybe they're training drivers as in service dupes?

They’ve been doing this for a while. As you say, new drivers doing dupes. Though this is normally only for the city drivers on single deck rota services. The 1 was the most common route that has them, particularly on a Monday morning. I don’t recall seeing this happening before with ECB/LC or double deck runs, but it probably has happened.

 

[Resuwen]

Looking at it's tracking history it's on driver training.

Was blinded as X4 rather than driver training or not in service though

 

[Bus9120UK]

Was blinded as X4 rather than driver training or not in service though

As above, these are duplicate services which sometimes operate with new drivers before they finish their training. There's still instructors onboard.

 

[Lx008]

As above, these are duplicate services which sometimes operate with new drivers before they finish their training. There's still instructors onboard.

Sorry if I’m still a little unclear on this, are passengers allowed on these services, I.e do they operate as a normal duplicate just with an instructor onboard or are they screened as dubplocates but do not accept passengers?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Sorry if I’m still a little unclear on this, are passengers allowed on these services, I.e do they operate as a normal duplicate just with an instructor onboard or are they screened as dubplocates but do not accept passengers?

They are permitted onboard. I don't think it would make sense or be allowed for them to display and follow the route, but not actually let anyone on. Judging by an image I've seen of it, there's around three instructors onboard and no more than five passengers.

I doubt there is any specific planning involved in when and where the training buses are put in service. I imagine it's done as seen fit. Perhaps its better to describe them as "extras" rather than "dupes"?

 

[InOban]

I would have thought that learning the passenger-facing aspects of the job would be a core part of the course and can only really be done with real passengers.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I would have thought that learning the passenger-facing aspects of the job would be a core part of the course and can only really be done with real passengers.

I agree. I also suspect it’s different when you have to put everything together for the first time too.

 

[LBObserver]

I agree. I also suspect it’s different when you have to put everything together for the first time too.

I remember years ago, when Tridents 584-6 were in the training school fleet, being on a 30 with a regular driver assisting an obviously new driver on a morning rush hour service. He was told to put the foot down on one of the V reg Darts climbing up on to the West Approach Road from Westfield Road. I believe that batch had less power than later ones.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I remember years ago, when Tridents 584-6 were in the training school fleet, being on a 30 with a regular driver assisting an obviously new driver on a morning rush hour service. He was told to put the foot down on one of the V reg Darts climbing up on to the West Approach Road from Westfield Road. I believe that batch had less power than later ones.

Those V darts were awful buses and as you say incredibly underpowered. Indeed that’s why they lasted such a short time in Edinburgh. Withdrawn 2008? I know they were new for the 22, but I really only remember them on the 49 towards the end of their tenure. The later batches were far better, really for me only getting better as each batch came along, with the last 53 plates probably being the best.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I remember years ago, when Tridents 584-6 were in the training school fleet, being on a 30 with a regular driver assisting an obviously new driver on a morning rush hour service. He was told to put the foot down on one of the V reg Darts climbing up on to the West Approach Road from Westfield Road. I believe that batch had less power than later ones.

When I started at Cardiff Bus we had S-Y reg SPDs and 02/03/53 plates (alison gearboxes) - the earlier ones with the Euro 2 engine were absolutely gutless, the S reg were the worst. Euro 3 engined ones were absolute rockets, if anything they were overpowered.

 

[Auld reekie]

The App is a joke.
Nothing like the bus stop tracker.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Those V darts were awful buses and as you say incredibly underpowered. Indeed that’s why they lasted such a short time in Edinburgh. Withdrawn 2008? I know they were new for the 22, but I really only remember them on the 49 towards the end of their tenure. The later batches were far better, really for me only getting better as each batch came along, with the last 53 plates probably being the best.

Weren't 151-175 one of the shortest lived batches in the fleet in the past few decades?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Weren't 151-175 one of the shortest lived batches in the fleet in the past few decades?

The 2011 enviros probably up there they only lasted 11 years, 10 if you only count the time they spent in service

 

[Bus9120UK]

Former Lothian Motorcoaches Tesma E35 and Eve Mercedes E19 have been sold to Coast to Coast travel.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The 2011 enviros probably up there they only lasted 11 years, 10 if you only count the time they spent in service

Were they a trial purchase to test the vehicle type? Thinking about it, the 7900H was also new to Lothian but they didn't seem to leave much of a gap between the 13 plates and 14/64 plates. I wonder, if the E400H had been better, if Lothian might then have bought 50 E350H instead of the 50 7900H...?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Were they a trial purchase to test the vehicle type? Thinking about it, the 7900H was also new to Lothian but they didn't seem to leave much of a gap between the 13 plates and 14/64 plates. I wonder, if the E400H had been better, if Lothian might then have bought 50 E350H instead of the 50 7900H...?

This is correct, Volvo funded them, similar to the First Bus examples and what were going to be the newer bodied ones for the 30, however this fell through.

 

[computerSaysNo]

This is correct, Volvo funded them, similar to the First Bus examples and what were going to be the newer bodied ones for the 30, however this fell through.

Volvo funded what, the E400H? And newer bodied 7900H?

 

[Rab Smith]

Was behind one of Lothians brand new Volvo BZL buses today and passed it as it stopped at a stop. These are fantastic looking buses!
What would be the approximate cost to buy one of these buses? With 71 added to the fleet over the last couple of years, that is a huge investment.

 

[90019]

Were they a trial purchase to test the vehicle type?

They were partially funded by the first Scottish Green Bus Fund which contributed £1m towards them.
If I remember right, Lothian didn't particularly want to buy from ADL again but the E400 hybrid was the only decker available at the time that the funding could be used for.


The Scottish Green Bus Fund subsidised the majority of Lothian's hybrids as well as those:

• £750k for 1-10 (7900H) in round 2
• £1.5m for 11-30 (7900H) in round 3
• £1.05m for fourteen of 31-50 (7900H) in round 4
• £1.5m for 551-570 (B5LH) in round 5
• £1.5m for 571-590 (B5LH) in round 6
• £1m for 284-289 (StreetAir) in round 7, though I think those are best left forgotten.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2025 ==

This is correct, Volvo funded them, similar to the First Bus examples and what were going to be the newer bodied ones for the 30, however this fell through.

The ones for the 30 were also going to have pantographs on the roof so they could be charged at the terminus and run more of the route on electric.
There was one at a bus show (I forget which one) in Lothian livery with a mock pantograph and charger to show off the system, but it all went quiet after that and nothing ever came of it.

 

[scosutsut]

£1m for 284-289 (StreetAir) in round 7, though I think those are best left forgotten.

Didn't know these got Scottish Bus Fund money but it makes sense.

Anyone got the terms and conditions of said tranche? I suspect a condition requiring the vehicles to be kept for a set length of time is all that's kept them from the cutters torch all these years.

 

[Baileygirl]

The ones for the 30 were also going to have pantographs on the roof so they could be charged at the terminus and run more of the route on electric.
There was one at a bus show (I forget which one) in Lothian livery with a mock pantograph and charger to show off the system, but it all went quiet after that and nothing ever came of it.

The pantograph option was put on ice after the councils would not give planning permission to put them up.

 

[OmniCity999]

Options are being explored for our StreetAirs to be repowered similarly to the test batch of tour buses.

Options either are or were at some point explored for a conversion using a small Cummins diesel option.

The thinking behind this is small contracted services. The East Lothian tenders, 13, 60 etc.

The reason Lothian never pitched for these or rather, never pitched successfully was partially down to not having a fleet ready to use and not wanting to buy a new type just for this work.

Atleast with the StreetAirs there is cosmetic similarities with some of the other Wright products in the fleet.

There certainly was a condition regarding fleet longevity and getting rid of these or repowering them to make better use of them. This has now long since elapsed.

One or two have gone back to Wright's to see whether they can undertake this work. Being a micro fleet within the UK, their not common and as such require a little care.

 

[route101]

Options are being explored for our StreetAirs to be repowered similarly to the test batch of tour buses.

Options either are or were at some point explored for a conversion using a small Cummins diesel option.

The thinking behind this is small contracted services. The East Lothian tenders, 13, 60 etc.

The reason Lothian never pitched for these or rather, never pitched successfully was partially down to not having a fleet ready to use and not wanting to buy a new type just for this work.

Atleast with the StreetAirs there is cosmetic similarities with some of the other Wright products in the fleet.

There certainly was a condition regarding fleet longevity and getting rid of these or repowering them to make better use of them. This has now long since elapsed.

One or two have gone back to Wright's to see whether they can undertake this work. Being a micro fleet within the UK, their not common and as such require a little care.

Are the Street Airs , the buses that were in service a very short while?

 

[scosutsut]

Options are being explored for our StreetAirs to be repowered similarly to the test batch of tour buses.

Very interesting insight, thanks!

Are the Street Airs , the buses that were in service a very short while?

Yes, they have been out of service longer than they were used in service now.

 

[Resuwen]

Is the plan to repower them electrically or to diesel?

 

[alan25]

Is the plan to repower them electrically or to diesel?

I would assume electric,seems very logical

 

[OmniCity999]

Methinks the news from Alexander Dennis today would suggest pressure will be put on local operators to buy their products.

Can see potentially some new Lothian orders going through ADL.

Alexander Dennis bus maker jobs rescued in £4m furlough deal

Alexander Dennis Limited (ADL), which has eight sites across the UK including Falkirk and Larbert, announced in June that up to 400 jobs could be axed.

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