The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[brad465]

Unfortunately for her and her colleagues, it will be the electorate that they need onside in any elections and Reeves is not an election asset currently.

To be fair, when was the last time a Chancellor was an electoral asset? They are usually the most hated person in the government; the only exceptions to this are the PM if they are personally involved in a scandal, or a minister specific to a national crisis they're poorly-responding to (e.g. Matt Hancock during covid).

Since 1997 we've had the following:

- Brown still gets stick for selling gold by people with the benefit of hindsight, despite winning 2 elections after.
- Darling had the GFC burdening him (and anyone in his position at that time would have got stick just by wrong place wrong time perception)
- Osborne's austerity made him very unpopular, but didn't stop a Tory majority in 2015.
- Philip Hammond is probably one of the better off chancellors only because Brexit overshadowed anything he did
- Javid wasn't in post long enough to deliver a budget, and was viewed favourably for standing up for his advisors when Johnson/Cummings wanted them sacked.
- Sunak was helped by generous covid support that anyone in his position would have got praise for, the subsequent after-effects only occurred after he ceased being chancellor.
- Zahawi was not in post very long at all, so like Javid delivered no budget.
- Kwarteng, let's not go there.
- Hunt was bad overall, especially in pre-election tax cut bribes that made Reeve's job harder, but because he followed Kwarteng he benefitted from being an improvement and the fickle minds of the electorate.
- Reeves so far has the WFA and disability benefit blunders. The rest of her decisions haven't really taken effect yet.

In short, the only chancellors who were not seen as liabilities, were the ones who were either not in post very long, or benefitted from a major event/crisis taking attention away from them.

 

[Gloster]

Oh, that makes it ok, then?

No, it doesn‘t make it OK. I don’t think she was deliberately dishonest, but she was careless to an extent that someone in her position should not have been and was right to resign. The whole matter was dealt with quickly and thoroughly: once the accusation was clear she reported herself and as soon as the report said that she was wrong she resigned. She does not deserve the levels of vitriol that are being poured over her, when a long stream of Conservative MPs‘ carelessness, recklessness and dishonesty have been met with, “Move along, please. Nothing to see here.”

 

[geoffk]

I live in Wales and everyone I talk is so fed up with how Labour have run Wales over the past 20 or so years. Also, the way they have changed the voting system and enlarged the number of politicians, without any public support. Now you can't even vote for a named politician, just select a party and the party decides who will be on the list.
This will be a gift for parties, who don't have well known politicians for example Reform!
They may have well shot themselves in the foot.

The closed list system of PR is not the one we should be looking at for Westminster elections but evidently there was no unanimity in Wales with regard to which system should be chosen. The closed list was used to elect members of the European Parliament from England, Scotland and Wales. East member state decides the form of PR they want to use.

 

[J663738]

To be fair, when was the last time a Chancellor was an electoral asset?

Maybe is the UK and its poor productivity and its work shy attitude that's the fault rather than any particular chancellor?
isn't the RMT going on strike for a 32 hour / 4 day week on full pay??

 

[brad465]

Maybe is the UK and its poor productivity and its work shy attitude that's the fault rather than any particular chancellor?
isn't the RMT going on strike for a 32 hour / 4 day week on full pay??

Productivity mostly stagnated post-2008, when by happy coincidence, ultra-low interest rates and quantitative easing made assets, stocks, shares and several other areas that have low/no productivity, along with much lower rates of taxation, more attractive to invest in. I'd say this is the biggest productivity stagnation cause, though other factors will have contributed as well to a lesser extent.

 

[MrEwy]

No, it doesn‘t make it OK. I don’t think she was deliberately dishonest, but she was careless to an extent that someone in her position should not have been and was right to resign. The whole matter was dealt with quickly and thoroughly: once the accusation was clear she reported herself and as soon as the report said that she was wrong she resigned. She does not deserve the levels of vitriol that are being poured over her, when a long stream of Conservative MPs‘ carelessness, recklessness and dishonesty have been met with, “Move along, please. Nothing to see here.”

She knew exactly what she was doing, she’s a wrongun who got caught out. As for her family I feel for them but if mum hadn’t been on the fiddle then none of this would have happened

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

This government won’t last the term

 

[edwin_m]

Oh, that makes it ok, then?

To me the key difference here is that she admitted her mistake fairly quickly and resigned. There were Tories who clung on much longer or who just continued in office despite doing things that were as bad or worse.

 

[MrEwy]

To me the key difference here is that she admitted her mistake fairly quickly and resigned. There were Tories who clung on much longer or who just continued in office despite doing things that were as bad or worse.

Red and blue are just as bad as each other, country will never get anywhere under either

 

[J663738]

To me the key difference here is that she admitted her mistake fairly quickly and resigned. There were Tories who clung on much longer or who just continued in office despite doing things that were as bad or worse.

Really? That OK then, I must remember this defence if I'm caught doing a serious crime, just say I'm sorry.
Confessional boxes might work like this but I don't think the law does!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

I can't understand why Angela Rayner is getting so much credit, because she admitted her mistake and reigned quickly?
Most in her defence seem to think its OK because other politicians did far worse?
This seems a very strange moral compass?

 

[jfollows]

I can't understand why Angela Rayner is getting so much credit, because she admitted her mistake and reigned quickly?
Most in her defence seem to think its OK because other politicians did far worse?
This seems a very strange moral compass?

She didn’t go quickly, she clung on for as long as she could in the face of the inevitable until she was forced to resign.

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh, that makes it ok, then?

It doesn't make it okay but it would be nice if there was was some internal consistency from the media, particularly the publications that have been baying for blood in the last few days, in that they applied similar ferver when it was Tories (or Reform) that got caught out.

 

[edwin_m]

Really? That OK then, I must remember this defence if I'm caught doing a serious crime, just say I'm sorry.
Confessional boxes might work like this but I don't think the law does!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

I can't understand why Angela Rayner is getting so much credit, because she admitted her mistake and reigned quickly?
Most in her defence seem to think its OK because other politicians did far worse?
This seems a very strange moral compass?

She didn’t go quickly, she clung on for as long as she could in the face of the inevitable until she was forced to resign.

Contrast with Jenrick who did the state out of around £40m and kept his job.

 

[J663738]

Contrast with Jenrick who did the state out of around £40m and kept his job.

Yes Judge, I plead guilty to murder, but that Tory murdered 4 people, so I expect a lenient sentence!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes Judge, I plead guilty to murder, but that Tory murdered 4 people, so I expect a lenient sentence!

You can keep saying this, but I think what's been asked for is consistency from the media not praise for Rayner.

 

[J663738]

You can keep saying this, but I think what's been asked for is consistency from the media not praise for Rayner.

But this thread is 'The Labour Party under Keir Starmer', not what might have happened 2 years ago.

 

[brad465]

Red and blue are just as bad as each other, country will never get anywhere under either

And the country won't get anywhere under any other colour either, because, shock horror, the problem is the whole system and those who pull the strings behind the scenes. It's the voting system, the party donors/lobby groups, the oligarchy. If another party takes prominence, then the oligarchs, etc., will simply move to corrupt them instead.

The only way the country is getting anywhere is when a critical mass of its population gets off its fat proverbial and starts targeting these systems directly, instead of just waiting and hoping someone else does it for them. (Hence why I actively support an electoral reform campaign group)

 

[Purple Train]

No, it doesn‘t make it OK. I don’t think she was deliberately dishonest, but she was careless to an extent that someone in her position should not have been and was right to resign. The whole matter was dealt with quickly and thoroughly: once the accusation was clear she reported herself and as soon as the report said that she was wrong she resigned. She does not deserve the levels of vitriol that are being poured over her, when a long stream of Conservative MPs‘ carelessness, recklessness and dishonesty have been met with, “Move along, please. Nothing to see here.”

Exactly, and it's enlightening that the ethics adviser - who has a certain reputation for being blunt - gives her as close to a glowing reference as he can give her.

I can't understand why Angela Rayner is getting so much credit, because she admitted her mistake and reigned quickly?
Most in her defence seem to think its OK because other politicians did far worse?
This seems a very strange moral compass?

Nobody is saying her actions in underpaying stamp duty were correct and proper. What most people seem to be saying is that her actions in self-referring for wrongdoing and resigning in response to the ethics report are okay, the polar opposite of what happened under the Tories, the polar opposite of what would happen under Reform, and "has acted with integrity and with a dedicated and exemplary commitment to public service" (not my words - the words of the Independent Ethics Adviser).

Red and blue are just as bad as each other, country will never get anywhere under either

Exactly - glad to see such a coherent critique of Labour, the Tories, and Reform. Thank you.

 

[Yew]

With a shift to the right, the Labour government becomes more like the Conservative government it replaced

I believe it was Harold Wilson who said "The Labour Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing", and at the moment it certainly doesn't feel like a moral crusade.

 

[Gloster]

I believe it was Harold Wilson who said "The Labour Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing", and at the moment it certainly doesn't feel like a moral crusade.

He said it at the 1962 party conference. In 2021 Starmer said of it, ‘He was right’: so do it.

 

[Yew]

She didn’t go quickly, she clung on for as long as she could in the face of the inevitable until she was forced to resign.

Conservative ministers have stayed in post much longer when faced with much worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2025 ==

He said it at the 1962 party conference. In 2021 Starmer said of it, ‘He was right’: so do it.

Unfortunately, that seems a long way from his actions over the last year.

 

[DustyBin]

She didn’t go quickly, she clung on for as long as she could in the face of the inevitable until she was forced to resign.

Exactly, and in the process tried to claim she’d been poorly advised when in fact she simply ignored the advice she’d been given.

The mental gymnastics being performed by some who claim she fell foul of complex rules and acted with integrity is truly mind boggling.

 

[GusB]

Exactly, and in the process tried to claim she’d been poorly advised when in fact she simply ignored the advice she’d been given.

The mental gymnastics being performed by some who claim she fell foul of complex rules and acted with integrity is truly mind boggling.

*yawn*

She has gone. Resigned. No longer in position. What more do you want?

 

[DustyBin]

*yawn*

She has gone. Resigned. No longer in position. What more do you want?

Well as you ask, I don’t believe she should continue as an MP.

Thanks for responding to my yawn-inducing post incidentally!

 

[brad465]

Well as you ask, I don’t believe she should continue as an MP.

Thanks for responding to my yawn-inducing post incidentally!

One of the perks of being a Minister is in the event of misconduct, it's a lifeline in preserving your role as an MP. Rayner's far from the first to do this. Perhaps if we finally get much tougher standards holding both MPs and Ministers to account, this may change, or even better, several lacklustre MPs take the job more seriously.

 

[Yew]

Well as you ask, I don’t believe she should continue as an MP.

Would you say the same for MPs from other MPs for other parties?

 

[jfollows]

Angela Rayner loses something like £133,000 in annual salary but gets a one-off payment of under £17,000 under a scheme to be modified or abolished in October.

 

[J663738]

Angela Rayner loses something like £133,000 in annual salary but gets a one-off payment of under £17,000 under a scheme to be modified or abolished in October.

Whats the £17k for? some sort of cushion payment.

I honestly don't understand why more has not been made of her relocating to Hove? Does she have connections there, it doesn't really fit in with the working class northern girl image she and Labour has cultivated over the years.

 

[Cdd89]

*yawn*

She has gone. Resigned. No longer in position. What more do you want?

My concern with this is that the act was either wilful, or she is deeply incompetent. She was explicitly told to seek further specialist advice due to her situation, and ignored it.

The first possibility is that she ignored it because she liked the preliminary advice, thought she had half a defence, and that it would probably never be noticed. Why ask questions that might mean you pay more money, etc. Under this hypothesis, once found out, she lied, brought up her disabled son, and tried to blame her advisors (wilful dishonesty).

The second possibility is that she is so grossly incompetent that she was genuinely clueless about her tax affairs and the advice she received. Maybe she didn't even read the advice, or maybe she did read it and didn't understand it. I do know people like this, but they not people with responsible jobs. There is therefore an even bigger question of how someone this incompetent could rise to such high political office within the Labour party.

I don't see a third option here. Personally, based on her past conduct, I lean toward the second explanation. In either case, far from "resigning for a mistake" (which is the narrative she has tried to construct), these should be disqualifying for future high office and are therefore worth continuing to talk about.

 

[JamesT]

Whats the £17k for? some sort of cushion payment.

I honestly don't understand why more has not been made of her relocating to Hove? Does she have connections there, it doesn't really fit in with the working class northern girl image she and Labour has cultivated over the years.

Her boyfriend, former Labour MP Sam Tarry, lives there.

 

[jfollows]

Whats the £17k for? some sort of cushion payment.

Ministerial Severance Pay, https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9656/,

Generally, a lump sum, equivalent of one quarter of the annual ministerial salary, is payable when a minister stops holding office.

but https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2l3l08x8do

Ministers who leave office following a "serious breach" of ministerial rules will be stopped from getting pay-outs from October

Under the changes, which will come into effect from 13 October, ministers who leave office having served fewer than six months, or following a "serious breach" of the Ministerial Code, will no longer get the payment.

If nothing else it will stop a repeat of the payout to Liz Truss’s acolytes who messed up badly in their short tenure.