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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Bletchleyite

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Paying what you owe is the key. Would you have to resign your job if you underpaid tax? I doubt I would. I WOULD have to pay it back though.

I think if I worked for HMRC and I'd knowingly done it (I know she didn't) then there's a good chance you would. I'd imagine, by way of comparison, if someone was accused of serious fare evasion (I'm not talking about forgetting to pay once and getting a Penalty Fare, I'm talking serious wilful stuff) and worked for the railway they'd end up either sacked or being given the choice (or Union advice) to resign in advance of a certain dismissal.
 
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dcbwhaley

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Agreed, she’s toast, the longer she hangs on the worse it will be for the party.
You can’t claim to be the party of the people if you evade payment of £40,000 in tax.

I’ve been a trustee of a trust fund and it’s not hard to follow the rules.
She didn't e & ade it. She avoided it. Very different.
 

SargeNpton

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This is, of course, Ms Rayner's second suspicious house sale news item in less than 18 months based on whether or not it was her primary residence.

Even though she was not prosecuted for the previous incident, you would have thought that she would have been very careful this time round to determine her status
 

J663738

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It took me less than 5 minutes to find the rules regrading Trusts on the HMRC stamp duty page. I am not sure who she asked for advice from, the estate agent in Hove?
This is tax evasion, same as me filling incorrect tax returns because a mate down the pub told me I didn't have to declare income for a second job. Then saying sorry when I was found out, but telling everyone it ok because I have now paid it back.
You just go and try that approach if you bought the wrong rail ticket!
 

jfollows

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I agree
I’ve been a trustee, and I read the rules and abided by them.
The people who screwed up were the bankers in the Isle of Man who administered the trust. I had to have words, I was not impressed.
For the housing minister not to pay tax on a housing transaction is unforgivable to me.
As I think I said before, try using the “genuine mistake” argument when you don’t buy a ticket before boarding a train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Politicians who make the rules and tell us how to behave have to comply with a greater standard. Saying they did what they believed to be correct isn’t good enough. They have to act correctly.
 

J663738

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But if you want HMRC advice, don't get it from someone who has sold you a product, like setting up a trust fund. Get the advice from the HMRC itself, its not difficult, especially if you happen to be the Deputy Prime Minister !
 

styles

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But if you want HMRC advice, don't get it from someone who has sold you a product, like setting up a trust fund. Get the advice from the HMRC itself, its not difficult, especially if you happen to be the Deputy Prime Minister !
I'm not actually convinced HMRC would give advice in this situation. If HMRC just provided tax and planning advice to anybody who called, there'd be no role for tax advisors for example. They exist for a reason. HMRC will tell you what your current tax position is based on information you've given them, but they won't get involved in telling you whether buying a home through your child's trust fund counts as a second property or whatever.

She was given duff advice, found out, corrected it. It's a silly mistake to make because if this is your ministerial brief you'd do well to seek specific tax advice from a couple of different experts, but I'm not sure HMRC would be a source of that advice.
 

MotCO

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She was given duff advice, found out, corrected it. It's a silly mistake to make because if this is your ministerial brief you'd do well to seek specific tax advice from a couple of different experts, but I'm not sure HMRC would be a source of that advice.
But it now transpires that she took advice from a conveyancing company who had no solicitors working for them, and who explicitly said that any client should make their own arrangements for getting tax advice.

There is also a new development regarding her role as a trustee of the trust fund for her child. It is not clear if she was a trustee, but if she was, she should act in the best interest of the beneficiary of the trust, i.e. her son. Taking money out of the trust fund to buy a share of the house in which the son resides, may not be the best use of that money, if the money was intended to be used to pay for carers and on-going expenses.

Further, the value of the house on which the share transferred was based, was higher than the value of similar houses in the same road - last year, the highest sale price of property in that road was £100,000 less than the valuation used for the transfer. This means that the trust fund may have paid more for an asset than it was worth, again questioning whether this was in the best interests of the son.

She didn't evade it. She avoided it. Very different.
But she seems to have told the Council in Ashton that the Ashton property was her primary residence, and told the Council in Hove that the Hove property was her primary residence. She can't have two primary residences. Doesn't that sound as though she was trying to evade her tax liability (illegal) rather than avoid it (legal)?
 

Gloster

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There can be reasonable explanations for the matter of the trust fund and the question of which property was her main residence: we shall have to wait and see. However, if she merely took the tax advice from conveyancers or ‘high street’ solicitors, rather than specialists in the field, then I am afraid that I feel that that is sufficiently careless, although not deliberately dishonest, to warrant resignation.
 

SuspectUsual

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None of this, interesting as it is, matters a jot. It may or may not be true to some degree.

She’s guilty in the court of public opinion, and in modern day politics that’s all that’s required. She will have to resign

Note - I don’t agree with lots of things in the modern world, this included, but it is what it is
 

JamesT

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None of this, interesting as it is, matters a jot. It may or may not be true to some degree.

She’s guilty in the court of public opinion, and in modern day politics that’s all that’s required. She will have to resign

Note - I don’t agree with lots of things in the modern world, this included, but it is what it is
I saw on the news some clips of her berating Tory ministers for refusing to resign with the line “one rule for them, another for everybody else”. Which does make her look hypocritical, and as you say perception is everything.
 

J663738

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I'm not actually convinced HMRC would give advice in this situation.
Well they do, its a tax and guess what the HMRC give the definitive tax advice in the UK. I did have a look and it did say under 18's who are the direct beneficiary of a domestic house in a trust, their parents/guardians ulimatly own the house and any further purchases would be a second home.
Anyway Anglea is toast, since she sought advice from the estate agents.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

When I am filling in my self assessment tax return and I need guidance, what do I do ask a friend, No I check what the rules are on the HMRC guidance documents. If I can get my head around this, then I object to someone being paid a fortune, who can't understand basic rules and doesn't even know the proper people to ask.
 
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Harpo

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The emergent facts and implicit naivety of her actions, ask as many questions about Rayner’s capability and suitability to be Deputy Prime Minister as they do about her integrity.

Labours nonsensical rules around the Deputy PM’s appointment leave Starmer looking even more flat-footed than usual.
 

dangie

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When I am filling in my self assessment tax return and I need guidance, what do I do ask a friend, No I check what the rules are on the HMRC guidance documents. If I can get my head around this, then I object to someone being paid a fortune, who can't understand basic rules and doesn't even know the proper people to ask.
When I fill in my tax form (can’t actually remember the last time I filled one in), I filled it in with the intention that I paid as little tax as I could get away with paying, as I’m sure pretty much everyone else does. While I’m certainly not defending Rayner, there are many more extremely wealthy individuals who need looking at.
 

BAFRA77

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Much like a certain representative in Clacton did - she should have bought the house but put it in the name of her partner - therefore would have avoided Stamp Duty on additional homes entirely.
 

sor

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Labours nonsensical rules around the Deputy PM’s appointment leave Starmer looking even more flat-footed than usual.
Are there any rules? The party directly elects their deputy leader, but there is no compulsion for a Labour PM to have to give them the title of deputy prime minister, especially given that this role is entirely powerless and meaningless in the UK context. Everyone who has held the title has also had an actual cabinet position (in her case, communities/local government/housing)

In the one time in recent history where a pre-determined deputy prime minister would have helped, the role didn't exist, so Raab (at that time a cabinet minister but not "deputy PM") took over at Boris Johnson's request
 

londonbridge

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Breaking news: she’s gone. (source: BBC).

1757070396974.png

Image is a screenshot from the BBC News app showing Angela Rayner outside 10 Downing Street. Accompanying text says:

“Angela Rayner resigns as deputy prime minister over failure to pay enough tax on flat”
 

brad465

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Resigning as Deputy PM as well means there will be a party election for that, which will be interesting. I suspect they'll try and get it done quickly so it's a done deal by the party conference.
 

Tetchytyke

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Don’t understand why it took so long.

I feel sorry for her, I don’t think she was playing the system. But her position was completely untenable. Trying to cling on just makes it worse.
 

danielnez1

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During the party leadership hustings Starmer seemed to me to be a caretaker leader. We as a party had endured Corbyn and his ironically far-right infiltrated Momentum mob and we needed someone to steady the boat until a strong leader came forward (wishful thinking).
 

brad465

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During the party leadership hustings Starmer seemed to me to be a caretaker leader. We as a party had endured Corbyn and his ironically far-right infiltrated Momentum mob and we needed someone to steady the boat until a strong leader came forward (wishful thinking).
Genuinely good and competent people don't go into politics anymore (or if they do they don't go far or are corrupted). There are plenty of other professions that not only have comparable, if not better pay, but come with much lower levels of public visibility and responsibility. Throw in the negative attitude towards the profession in general, and good people don't see the attraction. This then leads to the only ones going for it being incompetent, naïve and/or power-hungry, which then reinforces the aforementioned attitudes, creating a negative feedback loop. This is why changing parties of government hasn't solved anything, and why someone like Reform won't improve either. The overarching problem is the whole political system, that goes above parties and politicians, needs overhauling.
 

sor

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Resigning as Deputy PM as well means there will be a party election for that, which will be interesting. I suspect they'll try and get it done quickly so it's a done deal by the party conference.
There's quite a logistics challenge given it's only three weeks away and there has to be a period for nominations. The cabinet has the right to appoint an interim deputy leader if they wish.
 

D6130

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Genuinely good and competent people don't go into politics anymore (or if they do they don't go far or are corrupted). There are plenty of other professions that not only have comparable, if not better pay, but come with much lower levels of public visibility and responsibility. Throw in the negative attitude towards the profession in general, and good people don't see the attraction. This then leads to the only ones going for it being incompetent, naïve and/or power-hungry, which then reinforces the aforementioned attitudes, creating a negative feedback loop. This is why changing parties of government hasn't solved anything, and why someone like Reform won't improve either. The overarching problem is the whole political system, that goes above parties and politicians, needs overhauling.
Fully agree!
 

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