London to Switzerland direct?

[NCT]

Since I agree that the market might be too thin for nonstop Basel - London, what could be done is your proposal in Reverse: Two sets to Lile Europe, with the Front set going to London (Lille could be a technical stop only) and the rear one to Brussels and maybe Amsterdam. SNCB and NS International might even be open to a Cooperation.

That certainly would be a sensible option, as long as the Home Office can be satisfied that passengers in the two sets can be kept separate and that the London set can be kept secure if the train stops to pick up set down Schengen passengers at say Lyon or CDG.

Another option could be to have two trains with two units. One train from Basel and one from Geneva, each with a London half and a Brussels/Amsterdam half. Assuming you could find a suitable location you could do a shuffle of halves and send the two London units off together and the two Brussels/Amsterdam units a few minutes later.

From the Home Office's POV I suspect the risk of incorrect door release would be too high - it would be 'incorrect' not for safety reasons but purely to satisfy a border arrangement so it would be a new type of railway procedure for which there likely won't be strong mitigations. And I doubt the Basel - London market is thick enough even for a 200m unit.

 

[Snow1964]

Interview with SBB (Swiss Railways) CEO Vincent Ducrot

Why is SBB looking at London?​

Vincent Ducrot- London is one of the top destinations from Switzerland. London attracts a lot of people. And we need to be present in markets where people are traveling. So the equation is simple: there’s enough demand to make a Switzerland–London route profitable.

Can a Switzerland-London rail link become quickly a reality?​

Vincent Ducrot – Let’s be clear about : it’s not happening tomorrow! First, we need to set the right framework conditions. That means proper rail terminals as well as securing additional slots through the Channel Tunnel. But if you’ve been following the news, Getlink, which manages traffic in the Channel Tunnel, has already announced plans to increase tunnel slots by 2030. When that framework is in place, and with the right partnerships—we’re talking a lot with Eurostar—we’ll almost certainly see non-stop Switzerland–London trains. The big challenge, though, is finding a bypass route around Paris.

So you can’t run through Paris?​

Vincent Ducrot- It would be difficult. Going through CDG airport could be a possibility. However, the most feasible idea would be to reroute via Disneyland Paris—that’s a corridor we’ve already tested in the past with trains between Disneyland, Brussels, and Geneva. But the number of slots is still limited, though the French SNCF is also working to expand capacity.

Would you start from Geneva, Zurich, or both?​

Vincent Ducrot- Ideally both. There’s enough demand from Geneva and equally enough from Zurich–Basel.

SBB mentioned already to look at acquiring high-speed rolling stock. Are you buying or leasing?​

Vincent Ducrot- We need to step in financially into the high-speed market as our rail partners face difficulties to secure new trains. For example, on Switzerland-France routes, we have about 15 TGVs belonging to SNCF and commercialized under the name Lyria. We use all of them.

We know that the SNCF itself has a huge need for more TGVs. They can’t put more in the alliance for us. That’s why we are looking to buy rolling stock. We look at increasing this common fleet from 15 TGVs to maybe 22, 23 TGVs in the medium term. Right now, we’re talking with leasing consortia. Next spring, we’ll tender for new trains, then decide on leasing versus buying.

https://www.travelmole.com/news/swiss-rail-ceo-interview-international-expansion/

Separately there is a suggestion SBB is looking at upto 40 International high speed trains. (They are known to be interested in other routes including Barcelona

 

[Trainbike46]

Interview with SBB (Swiss Railways) CEO Vincent Ducrot

https://www.travelmole.com/news/swiss-rail-ceo-interview-international-expansion/

Separately there is a suggestion SBB is looking at upto 40 International high speed trains. (They are known to be interested in other routes including Barcelona

Wow, thank you for sharing, that does tell us a lot!

- SBB is interested in running to London
- SBB is looking at cooperating with Eurostar
- SBB may purchase trains for this route, as well as their other international routes
- SBB is considering BOTH Geneva and Zurich/Basel

a TGV Lyria/Eurostar co-branded services from Geneva to London, and from Geneva to Amsterdam, as an extension of current Amsterdam-Disney services maybe?

Switzerland is a very important rail market, so I could see both happening

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Sounds like Dijon, rather than Strasbourg, is the preferred route for Basel / Zuerich.

 

[signed]

I have to say, wanting to cooperate with SNCF is a surprise for me

 

[NCT]

Interesting. The interview seems to imply a direct physical train to/from London without any 'shuffles', but the language is far from definitive. I wonder whether the discussions with Eurostar is for keeping their options open - with the understanding that even if it's with a shuffle and a through ticketing arrangement, they need Eurostar to run additional services at MLV in order to accommodate the passengers coming off the SBB trains.

 

[Sorcerer]

What kind of market is there for London to Basel/Zurich? Are they business travellers or finance workers wanting to travel between financial hubs? For a journey comparable to the ones from London to southern France I can't see there actually being anything beyond one or two trains per day, be that for business or leisure.

 

[bspahh]

What kind of market is there for London to Basel/Zurich? Are they business travellers or finance workers wanting to travel between financial hubs? For a journey comparable to the ones from London to southern France I can't see there actually being anything beyond one or two trains per day, be that for business or leisure.

Basel and Zurich are a lot more important for the biotech and pharmaceutical industries than Geneva. In the last 10 years, I've never been for work trips to Geneva, but I've been to Basel ~ 20 times and Zurich (and not Basel) 5 times. My travel isn't going to pay for the line, but it would be convenient for me.

 

[Sorcerer]

Basel and Zurich are a lot more important for the biotech and pharmaceutical industries than Geneva. In the last 10 years, I've never been for work trips to Geneva, but I've been to Basel ~ 20 times and Zurich (and not Basel) 5 times. My travel isn't going to pay for the line, but it would be convenient for me.

Interesting. What would make it more convenient than a flight if you don't mind me asking? Would flying actually not be that much faster compared to rail? All things considered I'd love to get a train from London to Switzerland but I'm not exactly in the majority, especially since I'm up north where it would definitely be faster to fly.

 

[RailWonderer]

Basel and Zurich are a lot more important for the biotech and pharmaceutical industries than Geneva. In the last 10 years, I've never been for work trips to Geneva, but I've been to Basel ~ 20 times and Zurich (and not Basel) 5 times. My travel isn't going to pay for the line, but it would be convenient for me.

Novartis has a mega campus in Basel. The car park is in France but their buildings and labs are in Switzerland.

 

[Austriantrain]

Basel and Zurich are a lot more important for the biotech and pharmaceutical industries than Geneva. In the last 10 years, I've never been for work trips to Geneva, but I've been to Basel ~ 20 times and Zurich (and not Basel) 5 times. My travel isn't going to pay for the line, but it would be convenient for me.

Also, via Basel, the most populated and economically most significant parts of Switzerland can be easily reached on frequent connecting trains, as well as large parts of the main tourist regions.

 

[bahnause]

I have to say, wanting to cooperate with SNCF is a surprise for me

Why? SBB and SNCF already have a very good working relationship (TGV Lyria).

 

[signed]

Why? SBB and SNCF already have a very good working relationship (TGV Lyria).

The recent track record of SNCF partnerships is more on the nuclear side. Trenitalia (2012) by SNCF investing in Italo and Renfe (2022) because of SNCF competing there.

I would have guessed that SBB announcing international rail meaned that they wanted to compete with SNCF which would have of course lead to either parties putting out of the Lyria deal.

 

[Trainbike46]

Why? SBB and SNCF already have a very good working relationship (TGV Lyria).

The recent track record of SNCF partnerships is more on the nuclear side. Trenitalia (2012) by SNCF investing in Italo and Renfe (2022) because of SNCF competing there.

I would have guessed that SBB announcing international rail meaned that they wanted to compete with SNCF which would have of course lead to either parties putting out of the Lyria deal.

It does sound like SBB wants to de-risk the lyria deal, by buying their own rolling stock for Lyria services, instead of just relying on SNCF.

While I understand the reservations re working with the SNCF, I would say that Eurostar is a separate case, despite the SNCF ownership. Eurostar has worked very sucessfully both with operators that have part-ownership (like NMBS), and operators that don't (like NS).

 

[bspahh]

Interesting. What would make it more convenient than a flight if you don't mind me asking? Would flying actually not be that much faster compared to rail? All things considered I'd love to get a train from London to Switzerland but I'm not exactly in the majority, especially since I'm up north where it would definitely be faster to fly.

Flying will be faster from door to door, but on a train I can be working on my laptop for more of the time.

For me, later train connections would help, so I can have a working day in Basel and still get home by bedtime. At the moment, the last train leaves Basel at 16.34 and gets to St Pancras at 10.30.

It usually costs quite a bit more by train, but has a lower carbon footprint. The head the company I work for enjoyed being able to tell one of our big pharma customers that our carbon footprint is not just lower than the pharma company, but lower than the environmental consultants that they had employed to reduce their carbon footprint.

 

[Sorcerer]

Flying will be faster from door to door, but on a train I can be working on my laptop for more of the time.

For me, later train connections would help, so I can have a working day in Basel and still get home by bedtime. At the moment, the last train leaves Basel at 16.34 and gets to St Pancras at 10.30.

It usually costs quite a bit more by train, but has a lower carbon footprint. The head the company I work for enjoyed being able to tell one of our big pharma customers that our carbon footprint is not just lower than the pharma company, but lower than the environmental consultants that they had employed to reduce their carbon footprint.

Interesting. I suppose for a business traveller getting more work done on-the-go is much more comfortable and easier on a train than a plane, and the longer travel time will permit more work to be done at the table as well. Plus if I were a business traveller who was having his travel expenses covered you can bet that I'd be taking the opportunity for a nice first class experience with no impact on my own pockets.

 

[bspahh]

Interesting. I suppose for a business traveller getting more work done on-the-go is much more comfortable and easier on a train than a plane, and the longer travel time will permit more work to be done at the table as well. Plus if I were a business traveller who was having his travel expenses covered you can bet that I'd be taking the opportunity for a nice first class experience with no impact on my own pockets.

The travel expenses follow the "don't take the mickey" rule. Generally that means standard class rather than first class, unless the price would be very similar. We did have a rule that long haul flights would be in business class if I would , but in practice that has meant I don't do many long haul flights.

 

[Sorcerer]

The travel expenses follow the "don't take the mickey" rule. Generally that means standard class rather than first class, unless the price would be very similar. We did have a rule that long haul flights would be in business class if I would , but in practice that has meant I don't do many long haul flights.

Oh well that's a real shame then, but I suppose I could probably make do with standard class anyway. Never have been a huge fan of flying economy, and I'm not well-off enough to afford beyond that just now. Nevertheless a business worker could just as well make do with it as well. Long as they have a table for their laptop and luggage space for their briefcase they'll probably manage London to Basel/Zurich in good enough time and comfort.

 

[norbitonflyer]

What kind of market is there for London to Basel/Zurich? Are they business travellers or finance workers wanting to travel between financial hubs? For a journey comparable to the ones from London to southern France I can't see there actually being anything beyond one or two trains per day, be that for business or leisure.

I have travelled between London and Zurich several times for holidays in the Alps (changing for Innsbruck, Chur, Bellinzona or Konstanz)
Not having to endure the Gare du Nord and the RER would make the experience far more attractive.

 

[iknowyeah]

I have travelled between London and Zurich several times for holidays in the Alps (changing for Innsbruck, Chur, Bellinzona or Konstanz)
Not having to endure the Gare du Nord and the RER would make the experience far more attractive.

I do London to Bern every few weeks and I very very rarely go via Gare du Lyon, find via Strasbourg much easier

 

[A S Leib]

I do London to Bern every few weeks and I very very rarely go via Gare du Lyon, find via Strasbourg much easier

From a Mannheim perspective, I'd welcome a London – Strasbourg – Switzerland service as well. I think going via Brussels is generally quicker for Mannheim but because of waiting times at Paris-Est (and sometimes Strasbourg), with time spent on trains around five and a half hours either way.

(Better yet, I think, would be a Paris – Strasbourg option without mandatory reservations, but I can't see that happening when even the TERs are reservation-only.)

 

[MarlowDonkey]

What kind of market is there for London to Basel/Zurich?

The interview seemed to be indicating that there was a market Basel/Zurich to London, in other words Swiss residents visiting London and the UK.

 

[Bald Rick]

What kind of market is there for London to Basel/Zurich?

London to Basel / Zurich is roughly the same size market as London to Geneva. Both about a quarter of London- Paris. But I guess Geneva is more peaky for winter holidays.

 

[A S Leib]

I know that Paris to Geneva's ~1:20 longer than Paris to Lyon, but could not having to cross Paris make a direct Geneva service more attractive than current options for Lyon as well, assuming direct Lyon services don't return?

 

[Bald Rick]

I know that Paris to Geneva's ~1:20 longer than Paris to Lyon, but could not having to cross Paris make a direct Geneva service more attractive than current options for Lyon as well, assuming direct Lyon services don't return?

Paris - Geneva services don’t go through Lyon.

 

[signed]

I know that Paris to Geneva's ~1:20 longer than Paris to Lyon, but could not having to cross Paris make a direct Geneva service more attractive than current options for Lyon as well, assuming direct Lyon services don't return?

Not really, Lyria goes via Bourg en Bresse for its Geneva services, via Mulhouse for its Basel/Zurich services and via Dijon for its Lausanne services.

Going to Geneva (or really anywhere in Switzerland) via Lyon is a major detour, the TER doing the Lyon-Geneva run takes 2h, existing services take 3h13 from Paris

 

[Sorcerer]

One issue with the TGV network that any London-Switzerland service will be using is it's spider-web planning centred on Paris, so even a non-step train will likely end up running around Paris via Marne-la-Vallée unless you were to use some of the classic French railways to avoid it. So whether going via LGV Sud-Est or LGV Est there will inevitable be added journey times just because of the network layout.

I have travelled between London and Zurich several times for holidays in the Alps (changing for Innsbruck, Chur, Bellinzona or Konstanz)
Not having to endure the Gare du Nord and the RER would make the experience far more attractive.

That does make a huge difference to be fair, and it might also free up some capacity on London-Paris traffic for journeys such as yours.

The interview seemed to be indicating that there was a market Basel/Zurich to London, in other words Swiss residents visiting London and the UK.

Interesting. I suppose for Swiss travellers the service will largely be accessible for most of the country since Basel and Zurich are major rail hubs with good connections. For UK travellers though I expect many would still prefer a plane just because of the distance and journey length. Even with HS2 I'm not sure anyone living in Manchester would want to travel to such lengths if they fancied a nice Alpine holiday.

London to Basel / Zurich is roughly the same size market as London to Geneva. Both about a quarter of London- Paris. But I guess Geneva is more peaky for winter holidays.

I figured it'd not be as large as the three capitals market, which means one or two daily services might end up being the most we'll see of London to Switzerland. Unless the market proves very popular that is, what with the old "build it and they will come" but for a six-hour rail journey they might not be too keen on coming at first.

 

[Bald Rick]

I figured it'd not be as large as the three capitals market, which means one or two daily services might end up being the most we'll see of London to Switzerland. Unless the market proves very popular that is, what with the old "build it and they will come" but for a six-hour rail journey they might not be too keen on coming at first.

I reckon 5h30 to Geneva, including a stop at Marne La Vallée (for traffic and crew). And I think three trains a day each way would get about a third of the current air market. The issue is going to be paths on LGV SE from Mâcon.

 

[signed]

One issue with the TGV network that any London-Switzerland service will be using is it's spider-web planning centred on Paris, so even a non-step train will likely end up running around Paris via Marne-la-Vallée unless you were to use some of the classic French railways to avoid it. So whether going via LGV Sud-Est or LGV Est there will inevitable be added journey times just because of the network layout.

The travel time penalty of doing the run-round by MLV is non-existant compared to a change in Paris, while being massively more convenient

Ex. Lille Europe to Rennes (the whole run-round, serving CDG/MLV and Massy TGV) is 3h26 direct

You can do it, assuming 1h change in Paris, in 3h29 (using a faster non-stopping Paris-Rennes, taking 1h28) or 3h51 (stopping at Massy TGV and Le Mans, taking 1h50)

 

[Bald Rick]

So whether going via LGV Sud-Est or LGV Est there will inevitable be added journey times just because of the network layout.

Not sure what you mean by added journey times. It will be what it will be by the quickest route, which for Geneva will be via the LGV Interconnexion, LGV SE to Mâcon and then conventional via Bourg en Bresse.