Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Richard Scott]

It makes sense given the auxiliary loads required, particularly if ETH (Electric Train Heat) was added to a loco.

It's true of almost all locos before ETH was fitted.

 

[duffield]

The database says the whole set is 237.6 tonnes. How does that compare to a Class 222?
...

If a 5-coach 222 is a similar weight to a 5-coach 221, it would be around 280 tonnes. However, this may not be a reasonable comparison, since the tilt mechanism on the 221s may add extra weight. It seems to be difficult to find an accurate weight for the class 222s, but they have a reputation as a very heavy unit, so I would not be surprised to find that class 810 units were lighter despite their bi-mode capability.

FWIW Google's Gemini AI claims variously they may either weigh either 185 tonnes or somewhere in the range 220-250 tonnes or 285 tonnes depending exactly how you ask, which is not very helpful!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If a 5-coach 222 is a similar weight to a 5-coach 221, it would be around 280 tonnes. However, this may not be a reasonable comparison, since the tilt mechanism on the 221s may add extra weight. It seems to be difficult to find an accurate weight for the class 222s, but they have a reputation as a very heavy unit, so I would not be surprised to find that class 810 units were lighter despite their bi-mode capability.

FWIW Google's Gemini AI claims variously they may either weigh either 185 tonnes or somewhere in the range 220-250 tonnes or 285 tonnes depending exactly how you ask, which is not very helpful!

Adding up the carriages in 222 101 using the data in the Combined Volume gives 244.3 tonnes, but because of the variations in the formations of the units, each one is going to need to be calculated individually - but we can certainly say 250 tonnes for a 5 car 222 is a good working figure.

 

[Aspen90]

So, 5 car 222 is:

A1 (Driving standard) - 49.35
A3 (standard) - 47.85
A2 (standard + shop) - 47.93
A4 (standard / first) - 47.04
A6 (Driving first) - 49.99

For a total of 242.16t - lighter than expected!

 

[david.stannard]

Also seems to have been an Old Dalby based set that spent the whole night going backwards and forwards between Kettering and Bedford.
An Old Dalby based set is now on its way to Sheffield, then looks like the plan is St Pancras via Leicester, then back to Old Dalby via Corby.

Is it known whether the Old Dalby test set working to Sheffield and St Pancras during the daytime this week (5Q60-62) is the same set which is working the overnight shuttles on the southern MML to Bedford (5Q31-40)?

 

[PJM]

Is it known whether the Old Dalby test set working to Sheffield and St Pancras during the daytime this week (5Q60-62) is the same set which is working the overnight shuttles on the southern MML to Bedford (5Q31-40)?

I don`t know about the overnight shuttles but 810004 has been on the daytime runs.

 

[david.stannard]

I don`t know about the overnight shuttles but 810004 has been on the daytime runs.

Thanks. If you have seen it, do you know if it was under the wires on diesel power as southbound after Kettering on 5Q61 the acceleration seemed no better than that of Meridians.

 

[Aspen90]

Definitely on wires - saw it and heard it too.

 

[Fincra5]

Thanks. If you have seen it, do you know if it was under the wires on diesel power as southbound after Kettering on 5Q61 the acceleration seemed no better than that of Meridians.

Maybe they're not opening it up as quickly as a 222, as you know, testing.

 

[800001]

Maybe they're not opening it up as quickly as a 222, as you know, testing.

These runs are Hitachi tests trains. So it's irrelevant whether they match or beat 222 acceleration.

All they would be bothered about is conducting the relevant testing, of which can happen at varying speeds.

The runs to watch out for acceleration etc would be the 3AXX runs which are operated by EMR as driver training runs.

 

[LowLevel]

Today's scores on the doors - 15 cancellations due to a lack of serviceable 222s. Probably exacerbated by a set hitting a shopping trolley at Harpenden last night.

 

[hwl]

The database says the whole set is 237.6 tonnes. How does that compare to a Class 222?

If a 5-coach 222 is a similar weight to a 5-coach 221, it would be around 280 tonnes. However, this may not be a reasonable comparison, since the tilt mechanism on the 221s may add extra weight. It seems to be difficult to find an accurate weight for the class 222s, but they have a reputation as a very heavy unit, so I would not be surprised to find that class 810 units were lighter despite their bi-mode capability.

FWIW Google's Gemini AI claims variously they may either weigh either 185 tonnes or somewhere in the range 220-250 tonnes or 285 tonnes depending exactly how you ask, which is not very helpful!

So, 5 car 222 is:

A1 (Driving standard) - 49.35
A3 (standard) - 47.85
A2 (standard + shop) - 47.93
A4 (standard / first) - 47.04
A6 (Driving first) - 49.99

For a total of 242.16t - lighter than expected!

As a quick guide for 22x tilt and outside frame bogies add around 8tonnes per vehicle compared to comparable non-tilt inside frame bogie vehicles.
The % difference in fuel consumption is less than half the % difference in weight though.

 

[duffield]

As a quick guide for 22x tilt and outside frame bogies add around 8tonnes per vehicle compared to comparable non-tilt inside frame bogie vehicles.

Which, at around 40 tonnes for a 5 coach unit, seems to neatly bridge the gap between an approx 280 tonne 221 and an approx 240 tonne 222.

I suppose we've been wandering off-topic a bit here though.

Anyhow, going back to the subject of the thread, the conclusion is that a 5 coach 810 is marginally lighter than a 5 coach 222.

 

[hwl]

Anyhow, going back to the subject of the thread, the conclusion is that a 5 coach 810 is marginally lighter than a 5 coach 222.

Exactly, the difference is effectively too small to worry about for most purposes.

 

[222001]

Today's scores on the doors - 15 cancellations due to a lack of serviceable 222s. Probably exacerbated by a set hitting a shopping trolley at Harpenden last night.

It varies so much. Earlier this week they had every diagram covered, and even had one diagram 7 vice 5. Today they're 4 sets short. No consistency at all!

 

[baz962]

Which, at around 40 tonnes for a 5 coach unit, seems to neatly bridge the gap between an approx 280 tonne 221 and an approx 240 tonne 222.

I suppose we've been wandering off-topic a bit here though.

Anyhow, going back to the subject of the thread, the conclusion is that a 5 coach 810 is marginally lighter than a 5 coach 222.

222 coaches are 53 tonnes iirc , so 5 car should be 265 tonnes.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Surely the more modern traction control systems would still enable the 810 to achieve better acceleration even if the power to weight was very similar to the now 20 year old 222?

 

[Snow1964]

Surely the more modern traction control systems would still enable the 810 to achieve better acceleration even if the power to weight was very similar to the now 20 year old 222?

Not necessarily, the Bombardier units had microprocessor controlled (insulated gate bipolar transistor) onix drives, yes processor speed is faster nowadays, but the asynchronous motors and wheel revolution speed are not really a step change.

 

[Supercoss]

125 mph operation pantograph raised has been authorised south of Bedford, class 810 can obey “HST” permissible speed indicators and ignore ”EMU 100 “ permissible speed indicators from Monday 25th Aug.
10 car operation ( both in Diesel mode) expected to be tested next week by Hitachi keep an eye on Friday 29 August

 

[duffield]

125 mph operation pantograph raised has been authorised south of Bedford, class 810 can obey “HST” permissible speed indicators and ignore ”EMU 100 “ permissible speed indicators from Monday 25th Aug.
10 car operation ( both in Diesel mode) expected to be tested next week by Hitachi keep an eye on Friday 29 August

If 10 car operation testing is successful (if!) are there any remaining outstanding tests that need to be completed at a class level (as opposed to individual unit tests which will obviously carry on until they are all handed over to EMR)? Or is 10 car operation the last thing on that list?

 

[QSK19]

Great news!

And my follow up question would be how long theoretically until 10-car electric testing happens once 10-car diesel testing has commenced?

 

[Nym]

10 car electric will need more approvals from the likes of network rail with overhead line compatibility testing.

And currently there's only one or two accredited test houses that can do it, and likely to only be one, maybe two HSX Mk.II Instrumented Pantographs available (of each type).

I believe following TPE commissioning on the 802s and GW completion, the HSXs were all de-instrumented and returned to Hitachi.

 

[800001]

Just seen on twitter that the power change over signage at Mill Hill Broadway has been removed last night, and 810s can now run at HST permissible speeds on electric power south of Bedford.

https://x.com/13milepost/status/1959568478278475889?s=46&t=JLp3J2Up_Gl_m9cQz-au6w

During non tweeting hours without ceremony Power Change Over signage removed at Mill Hill Broadway - Class 810 stock now able to observe “HST” ⭕️permissible speed south of Bedford Pantograph ⚡️ Raised

 

[Bald Rick]

Just seen on twitter that the power change over signage at Mill Hill Broadway has been removed last night, and 810s can now run at HST permissible speeds on electric power south of Bedford.

Hope they took the graffiti on them too!

 

[Nottingham59]

810s can now run at HST permissible speeds on electric power south of Bedford.

Does that apply to 10-car 810 double sets, with (presumably) two pantographs?

 

[800001]

Does that apply to 10-car 810 double sets, with (presumably) two pantographs?

No, as 10 car testing has not even started.
It will start on diesel first. Unsure when 10 car testing commences.

 

[Aspen90]

No, as 10 car testing has not even started.
It will start on diesel first. Unsure when 10 car testing commences.

October - but let’s wait and see.

 

[800001]

October - but let’s wait and see.

2027 lol

 

[Aspen90]

2027 lol

Look at you being all optimistic!

 

[hwl]

Surely the more modern traction control systems would still enable the 810 to achieve better acceleration even if the power to weight was very similar to the now 20 year old 222?

No - the tech will make next to no difference, more modern traction electronics will be slightly more efficient and WSP might be slightly better in the wet.
The bigger difference comes from the number of motored axles and how pushed to the limit the traction motors are.

810 - 8 motored axles (40%), motors running at/near plated rating above the adhesion limit
222 (5 car) 10 motored axles (50%), motors running at ~60% plated rating above the adhesion limit

Almost if Hitachi has tried to exactly replicate the nominal 222 performance at the lowest possible manufacturing cost (for them)