2023 Israel - Hamas / Hezbollah war

[brad465]

It is a genocide, people have been saying so for a very long time, and they are right. They are now starving adults, children and babies to death. They are shooting civilians, as usual. On top of their bombing campaign which has killed something like 80,000 to 100,000 people.

I expect the reported death toll of circa 60,000 to be a significant underestimate, considering the scale of destruction and now starvation on top. I think when the war ends we are unfortunately in for a real horror show emerging once the true scale of devastation comes to light. This is another reason why I believe the war hasn't ended yet: as well as Netanyahu trying to retain power, he and the IDF know the aftermath will bring some very "inconvenient truths" to light, so are trying to delay this as much as possible, even if that means violating ceasefires and escalating into other countries like Iran.

 

[uglymonkey]

But Bibi doesn't care, he just wants folks to concentrate on an external threat to stop folks thinking about his domestic stuff at home.If he loses power and removed from office it, it is a short step to a court case and likely jail.He wants to avoid this at all costs, no matter what the cost economically and more importantly human misery and lives.

 

[dcbwhaley]

It is a genocide, people have been saying so for a very long time, and they are right. They are now starving adults, children and babies to death. They are shooting civilians, as usual. On top of their bombing campaign which has killed something like 80,000 to 100,000 people.

I do wish people and the media would stop calling it a "war".3 month old babies do not fight in wars.
It is simply genocide or, if you prefer, ethnic cleansing.
And, as another poster says, the phrase "final solution" comes to mind

 

[Blade Fisher]

Would you mind providing links to the daily news from Gaza that you're currently consuming? The sources that I'm reading tell me that the aid stations are located within areas that are subject to evacuation orders and that they're only open for very short periods of time. Palestinians have also have to travel for fairly long distances through territory that is essentially war zone in order to reach these sites.

Have a read of this:

Eleven-minute race for food: how aid points in Gaza became ‘death traps’ – a visual story

Hundreds of people have died while seeking food since delivery was taken over by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation in May. But Palestinians facing extreme hunger have no choice but to take the risk

www.theguardian.com

I've quoted an article from the Guardian, which you may or may not deem to be a reliable source. If you wish to disagree with me, have the decency to do some research and provide links and quotes from sources that back up your arguments.


*YAWN* Straight from the Israeli government playbook. As above, sources are required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==



While it has not suggested that Hamas is responsible for killing starving Palestinians, David Mencer continutes to suggest that "There is no famine caused by Israel".

UN agency says 6,000 lorries' worth of aid ready to enter Gaza and urges Israel to allow access

The UN's humanitarian agency warns only a "trickle" of aid is getting into Gaza - Israel says 800 trucks are inside Gaza waiting for collection.

www.bbc.co.uk

Mencer is a disgusting excuse for a human being

I'll leave it there before I say something I might regret.

That guy Mercer/Mencer might as well be in an SS uniform the amount of lies he portrays. Unreal.

 

[sjpowermac]

*YAWN* Straight from the Israeli government playbook. As above, sources are required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

Control? Hamas have been known to steal aid in order to hand it out to those people they favour. Stopping people accessing other sources of aid would be entirely on-brand for them.

Link from BBC News:

“Some Palestinians in Gaza are telling the BBC they have not eaten in two days, accusing armed gangs of looting incoming aid trucks and selling the contents on the black market at high prices.”

The article doesn’t reference Hamas, but I thought it might be of interest to you.

Seven more malnutrition deaths reported in Gaza, as Hamas-run health ministry says 104 killed in 24 hours

The death toll since the start of Israel's military campaign in Gaza has risen to 60,138, the ministry says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

The real issue is that there isn’t enough food and people are dying of malnutrition. Of course it’s deeply unethical for Hamas to reroute vital food supplies to their favoured families but there isn’t enough anyway. Israel is starving people to death, it is deliberate, it is policy, it is a genocide.

 

[Cloud Strife]

This is my position as well. Whatever your view of Israel, the Palestinians, or Hamas (my view of the latter hasn’t changed), what’s happening is completely unacceptable. I really hate to say it, but the term “final solution” comes to mind.

Same here. What Israel did in the beginning was justifiable, it was a clear declaration of war by Hamas and it was very hard to disagree with them going in there to destroy their military capabilities. But now, it's simply inexcusable. Hamas are destroyed as a coherent army and governing power, and the only issue that remains is that Israel still don't have control over around 1/3rd of Gaza. It's hard to understand why they haven't managed to control all of it, but perhaps it's a lack of manpower.

Bibi is now proposing to annex parts of Gaza in accordance with the demands of the far right ministers as his government is in trouble, which means that the end goal is clearly to force the people of Gaza into an ever shrinking space. The far right in Israel have never forgiven the Israeli government for abandoning the settlements in 2005, and it seems that the end goal is to force the depopulation of Gaza by simply reducing the size of the territory.

The sad thing about all of this is that it could all have been avoided if the international community had stepped up after the Oslo Accords to create a viable Palestinian state. The West Bank and Gaza could easily have been connected via a secure transit road guarded by the IDF, but instead we ended up with even more of a mess. Had there been a Palestinian state bordering Jordan and Egypt and connected via a secure transit road, backed up with the separation barriers, it's highly likely that it would have become a viable state.

I believe firmly that both states have a right to exist, but that neither side is going to accept a two state solution, except by force.

 

[AlterEgo]

I believe firmly that both states have a right to exist

What does that actually mean?

 

[Cloud Strife]

What does that actually mean?

In practice, that the State of Israel and the State of Palestine have the right to exist as viable states. The borders of those states can be discussed, and I think the route of the West Bank separation barrier is acceptable as the border, but at the same time, Israel has to give up military control of the West Bank. There's not much left of the barrier left to construct, and once it's finished, I cannot see any rational reason for Israel to continue to be in the West Bank. IMO, if Israel was really genuine about peace, they would complete the barrier and then withdraw from the West Bank properly.

On the other hand, they have a serious problem with the settlers, and unless they're forced out at gunpoint, they're never going to leave. But again, this is where the international community also needs to step in and tell Israel that they either withdraw or they will face sanctions, because there's simply no reason for the IDF to be in Jenin, Ramallah or Hebron.

 

[Purple Train]

Same here. What Israel did in the beginning was justifiable, it was a clear declaration of war by Hamas and it was very hard to disagree with them going in there to destroy their military capabilities. But now, it's simply inexcusable. Hamas are destroyed as a coherent army and governing power, and the only issue that remains is that Israel still don't have control over around 1/3rd of Gaza. It's hard to understand why, but

Bibi is now proposing to annex parts of Gaza in accordance with the demands of the far right ministers as his government is in trouble, which means that the end goal is clearly to force the people of Gaza into an ever shrinking space. The far right in Israel have never forgiven the Israeli government for abandoning the settlements in 2005, and it seems that the end goal is to force the depopulation of Gaza by simply reducing the size of the territory.

The sad thing about all of this is that it could all have been avoided if the international community had stepped up after the Oslo Accords to create a viable Palestinian state. The West Bank and Gaza could easily have been connected via a secure transit road guarded by the IDF, but instead we ended up with even more of a mess. Had there been a Palestinian state bordering Jordan and Egypt and connected via a secure transit road, backed up with the separation barriers, it's highly likely that it would have become a viable state.

I believe firmly that both states have a right to exist, but that neither side is going to accept a two state solution, except by force.

Excellent post.

 

[brad465]

On the other hand, they have a serious problem with the settlers, and unless they're forced out at gunpoint, they're never going to leave. But again, this is where the international community also needs to step in and tell Israel that they either withdraw or they will face sanctions, because there's simply no reason for the IDF to be in Jenin, Ramallah or Hebron.

Something I discovered that surprised me in relation to the West Bank, is that Google Street View have managed to visit large parts of it. Granted it will almost entirely be Israeli settlement areas and the connecting roads, but given the status of the territory and the illegality of the settlements there (according to the ICJ), it's interesting seeing Google undertake this.

 

[ainsworth74]

Something I discovered that surprised me in relation to the West Bank, is that Google Street View have managed to visit large parts of it. Granted it will almost entirely be Israeli settlement areas and the connecting roads, but given the status of the territory and the illegality of the settlements there (according to the ICJ), it's interesting seeing Google undertake this.

Was it Google or a third party? There's parts of Tehran on Google Street View and I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Google car that was driving around taking the pictures...

 

[brad465]

Was it Google or a third party? There's parts of Tehran on Google Street View and I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Google car that was driving around taking the pictures...

Possible I suppose, I knew third parties could easily upload images at specific locations, whether on or off road, but didn't realise one could upload entire road segments.

 

[ainsworth74]

Possible I suppose, I knew third parties could easily upload images at specific locations, whether on or off road, but didn't realise one could upload entire road segments.

Yep Google don't seem to be too proprietary about allowing people to upload entire segments of roads. Presumably precisely because there are some parts of the world that they know they'll never get access to (plus it's no doubt cheaper for them...)!

 

[Cloud Strife]

Something I discovered that surprised me in relation to the West Bank, is that Google Street View have managed to visit large parts of it. Granted it will almost entirely be Israeli settlement areas and the connecting roads, but given the status of the territory and the illegality of the settlements there (according to the ICJ), it's interesting seeing Google undertake this.

I thought the same thing! It's interesting how they've done it, because for instance, Ramallah is also covered. I wonder if they didn't have plans to cover more and then abandoned it for whatever reason? Having said that, Google only uses the names of towns/cities in the West Bank, so they don't seem to recognise the Israeli settlements either.

Was it Google or a third party?

It's definitely Google. They haven't just visited Area C (Israeli settlements) as well, as there's plenty of coverage in places like Bethlehem, Jericho and other Area A areas.

 

[brad465]

The only thing surprising about this announcement is how long it's taken to be made:

Israeli defence minister says criticism of Gaza City takeover plan 'will not weaken our resolve'

Israel has faced criticism from several world leaders, including from the UK and Germany, as the UN warns of more "killings and massive destruction".

www.bbc.co.uk

'We intend' to take control of all of Gaza, but do 'not want to keep it' - Netanyahu
​

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told Fox News "we intend" to take control of the whole of Gaza.

Speaking ahead of an Israeli security cabinet meeting, Netanyahu is asked by the outlet whether Israel will take control of the Strip.

He responds: "We intend to, in order to ensure our security, remove Hamas there, enable the population to be free of Gaza and to pass it to civilian governance - that is not Hamas and not anyone advocating the destruction of Israel".

"We want to liberate ourselves and liberate the people of Gaza from the awful terror of Hamas," he adds.

But Netanyahu also says Israel does "not want to keep it".

"We want to have a security perimeter. We don't want to govern it. We don't want to be there as a governing body," he adds.

 

[Sorcerer]

The only thing surprising about this announcement is how long it's taken to be made:

Israeli defence minister says criticism of Gaza City takeover plan 'will not weaken our resolve'

Israel has faced criticism from several world leaders, including from the UK and Germany, as the UN warns of more "killings and massive destruction".

www.bbc.co.uk

If Netanyahu isn't straight up foolish then he's very calculated. Even if he somehow managed to get rid of Hamas he wouldn't actually change how Palestinian citizens are treated, so inevitably another power would rise in it's place. But then that works out perfectly for him because he gets to claim he eradicated Hamas short-term, and long-term he gets another militant group to fight against, because as a warmonger he's not much good at anything else.

 

[AlterEgo]

Palestine Action protest arrests rise to more than 500

Police say the majority of arrests were for displaying placards in support of the banned group.

www.bbc.co.uk

The number of arrests at Saturday's demonstration in London in support of banned group Palestine Action has risen to 532.

The Metropolitan Police said the majority of arrests - 521 - were for displaying placards in support of Palestine Action at Westminster's Parliament Square, and one at a Palestine Coalition march.

Hundreds of people arrested under farcical terror laws today in London for supporting farcically proscribed group Palestine Action.

I expect a few more of these protests will have the government wondering what to do next.

 

[jon0844]

Why are people supporting this group and not just showing general support for Palestinians?

I know very little about the group (so hopefully someone can set me straight) but I'm sure they were banned because of pressure from some powerful lobbyists. But isn't this just doing damage to the cause and making it easier for some Government supporting Israelis to get valuable ammunition?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why are people supporting this group and not just showing general support for Palestinians?

I know very little about the group (so hopefully someone can set me straight) but I'm sure they were banned because of pressure from some powerful lobbyists. But isn't this just doing damage to the cause and making it easier for some Government supporting Israelis to get valuable ammunition?

I think their point is to highlight the farce en masse. It is risible that retired teachers are getting arrested under terror laws. The government is quite scared of dissent and discord - more so than even the last government. And it's showing.

 

[Belperpete]

Why are people supporting this group and not just showing general support for Palestinians?

I know very little about the group (so hopefully someone can set me straight) but I'm sure they were banned because of pressure from some powerful lobbyists. But isn't this just doing damage to the cause and making it easier for some Government supporting Israelis to get valuable ammunition?

I have to admit that I thought it over the top to class what they did as terrorism. As far as I am aware, they didn't harm anyone, and they didn't disrupt anyone. I would have classed it as vandalism.

The problem with just showing general support for Palestinians is how do you show it? By muttering under your breath when noone is listening? If you want to organise a march or a protest involving a significant number of people then someone needs to organise it. And unfortunately there are sections of the tabloid press who portray any group or organisation that shows support for the Palestinians as though they support terrorists.

 

[GusB]

Palestine Action protest arrests rise to more than 500

Police say the majority of arrests were for displaying placards in support of the banned group.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hundreds of people arrested under farcical terror laws today in London for supporting farcically proscribed group Palestine Action.

I expect a few more of these protests will have the government wondering what to do next.

Well, quite. The court system is already under enormous pressure and the burden of having to process so many pensioners who are charged with terrorism offences isn't going to alleviate that.

It is a complete and utter farce.

Why are people supporting this group and not just showing general support for Palestinians?

I know very little about the group (so hopefully someone can set me straight) but I'm sure they were banned because of pressure from some powerful lobbyists. But isn't this just doing damage to the cause and making it easier for some Government supporting Israelis to get valuable ammunition?

There isn't a really a group to support; it's a movement rather than an organisation. "Palestinian Action" has been proscribed but all that will happen is that another "organisation" will take its place. The authorities are going to have to prove that there was some kind of membership.

Police forces do what they're told to do and will arrest people as necessary, but it's all going to grind to a halt when those arrested people face the beaks. Where are all these "terrorists" going to be held if they're found guilty?

It's a blatant assault on freedom of speech. Hypothetically, if I wanted to show support for Hamas (or any other "terrorist" organsation) I should be able to do so without fear of being arrested. You'd be quite within your rights to ridicule that point of view (and I'd agree with you).

 

[Yew]

I have to admit that I thought it over the top to class what they did as terrorism. As far as I am aware, they didn't harm anyone, and they didn't disrupt anyone. I would have classed it as vandalism.

My understanding is that at another event, there was a little bit of low-level violence, though I don't know if there were any mitigating circumstances for that.

Equally, if property damage, and low-level violence by supporters makes an organisation a terrorist one, then half the football clubs in the land would be terrorist organisations.

 

[brad465]

Arresting protestors en masse in this manner, who are otherwise not being disruptive, is a sure fire way to see increased support for the relevant cause. I suspect Palestinian causes lost some support after the RAF base damage, but that could well be being reversed now with successive moves like this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Israel just murdered a bunch of journalists documenting the ongoing genocide, by dropping a bomb onto them.

To be honest it's one of the more low level crimes they've committed over the last couple of years. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ceqyyrp3yq9o

Five Al Jazeera journalists including prominent reporter Anas al-Sharif have been killed in a targeted Israeli strike near Gaza City's al-Shifa Hospital.
Sharif and another correspondent, Mohammed Qreiqeh, along with cameramen Ibrahim Zaher, Mohammed Noufal and Moamen Aliwa were in a tent for journalists at the hospital's main gate when it was struck, the broadcaster said, external.
The "targeted assassination" on Sunday was "yet another blatant and premeditated attack on press freedom", it said. The Committee to Protect Journalists said it was appalled by the attack.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed it had targeted Sharif, alleging he had "served as the head of a terrorist cell in Hamas".
It also said he had "advanced rocket attacks on Israeli civilians and IDF troops" and claimed to have Hamas documents that showed he had been in one of the group's units in 2019.
However, the CPJ said Israel had failed to provide evidence to back up its allegations.

 

[martin butler]

I'm going to say something some of you might not agree with, It's always been my suspicion that the people of Gaza AND Palestine are just pawns in someone else's conflict, that being Iran, and America through its close ties to Isreal,

Palestinians, don't have a very good history where other Arab nations are concerned, every country that accepted refugees from Palestine, found them to be an existential threat to their own systems, in Jordan, they tried to overthrow the Jordanian government, and in the UAE, wasn't there almost civil war, as in Lebanon? caused by Palestinian extremists, Hamas is a front for the extremist mullahs who took over Iran.

Isn't it strange how much of the Arab world now has peaceful relations with the state of Isreal and has learned that talk and compromise have better outcomes than war, except of course for Hamas, If the Mullahs fell, I bet the support Hamas gets would die just as quickly, much of the problems are as much down to them, The far right, in Isreal, actually needed the distraction of Hamas to prevent th PM, ending up in prison, and he won't stop as he needs the nation to believe they have to be as bad, if not worse than those who they are fighting against,

The best chance for any peace has really got to be for Gaza to for now until it's been rebuilt, and things have calmed down, would be for the territory to come under Israeli protection, and the rebuilding done so that Palestinians and Israelis live side by side, and stop seeing each other as he enemy, go to the same schools, and both have the same chances, once that happens, then there can be elections, free of interference , followed by all Arab nations, agreeing that Isreal has every right to exist, that there be regular meetings between all states, including Isreal, to talks that free up cooperation, between every one of them.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think their point is to highlight the farce en masse. It is risible that retired teachers are getting arrested under terror laws. The government is quite scared of dissent and discord - more so than even the last government. And it's showing.

Quite. From what I've read Palestinian Action were a dubious bunch of characters, some with somewhat shady histories. But proscription as a terrorist organisation akin to, you know, Hamas or Al-Qaeda? That was demonstrably crackers and has led to exactly the sort of insanity that we're now seeing. Arresting 500 odd people at a protest on Saturday has made us more safe precisely how? What was the public in danger of? Reading badly written signs? Is that actually a good use of precious police and court time?

No of course it isn't. It's utterly barmy that the Government have decided to go down this route rather than just chuck the book at the people that spray painted some planes and lock them up for a number of years. That would be sufficient.

I also find it infuriating that it doesn't seem that any heads have rolled within the RAF for the utterly embarrassing spectacle of a deeply unsophisticated attack on a critical piece of national infrastructure. If a couple of fellas on a scooter can break into Brize Norton and get close enough to spray paint into a aerial refuelling tanker then god alone knows how much damage someone actually minded to do harm could do. My reaction the morning after the news broke was I wanted metaphorical heads on spikes for such a shocking security lapse, and it was the heads of the people that did it and their supporters that I was after.

But no, instead, the Government has decided to lose its damn mind and start arresting hundreds of people for holding up signs. Brilliant. That's the real threat to UK national security right there. Not our own incompetent protection of critical nation security resources.

The best chance for any peace has really got to be for Gaza to for now until it's been rebuilt, and things have calmed down, would be for the territory to come under Israeli protection, and the rebuilding done so that Palestinians and Israelis live side by side, and stop seeing each other as he enemy, go to the same schools, and both have the same chances, once that happens, then there can be elections, free of interference , followed by all Arab nations, agreeing that Isreal has every right to exist, that there be regular meetings between all states, including Isreal, to talks that free up cooperation, between every one of them.

It's a lovely idea but the facts on the ground make such a utopia all but impossible.

At the point at which Israel is willingly confessing to killing journalists reporting on their genocide, is making plans to take over more of Gaza, continues to ensure that the flow of food is restricted into Gaza, has systematically and knowingly destroyed civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals and is continuing the expansion of settlement activity in the West Bank we're far far beyond any hope for the scenario you've outlined happening.

Can you imagine a Palestinian who has had their home bombed, become a refugee in their own country, has lost friends and family to Israel bombs and starvation agreeing to now live under Israeli protection? What on earth could motivate them to trust Israeli in that situation to not mistreat them even further? Or imagine an Israeli which has gone to extraordinary lengths to kill, maim, displace and destroy Gaza and its inhabitants now taking care of them?

 

[martin butler]

Quite. From what I've read Palestinian Action were a dubious bunch of characters, some with somewhat shady histories. But proscription as a terrorist organisation akin to, you know, Hamas or Al-Qaeda? That was demonstrably crackers and has led to exactly the sort of insanity that we're now seeing. Arresting 500 odd people at a protest on Saturday has made us more safe precisely how? What was the public in danger of? Reading badly written signs? Is that actually a good use of precious police and court time?

No of course it isn't. It's utterly barmy that the Government have decided to go down this route rather than just chuck the book at the people that spray painted some planes and lock them up for a number of years. That would be sufficient.

I also find it infuriating that it doesn't seem that any heads have rolled within the RAF for the utterly embarrassing spectacle of a deeply unsophisticated attack on a critical piece of national infrastructure. If a couple of fellas on a scooter can break into Brize Norton and get close enough to spray paint into a aerial refuelling tanker then god alone knows how much damage someone actually minded to do harm could do. My reaction the morning after the news broke was I wanted metaphorical heads on spikes for such a shocking security lapse, and it was the heads of the people that did it and their supporters that I was after.

But no, instead, the Government has decided to lose its damn mind and start arresting hundreds of people for holding up signs. Brilliant. That's the real threat to UK national security right there. Not our own incompetent protection of critical nation security resources.



It's a lovely idea but the facts on the ground make such a utopia all but impossible.

At the point at which Israel is willingly confessing to killing journalists reporting on their genocide, is making plans to take over more of Gaza, continues to ensure that the flow of food is restricted into Gaza, has systematically and knowingly destroyed civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals and is continuing the expansion of settlement activity in the West Bank we're far far beyond any hope for the scenario you've outlined happening.

Can you imagine a Palestinian who has had their home bombed, become a refugee in their own country, has lost friends and family to Israel bombs and starvation agreeing to now live under Israeli protection? What on earth could motivate them to trust Israeli in that situation to not mistreat them even further? Or imagine an Israeli which has gone to extraordinary lengths to kill, maim, displace and destroy Gaza and its inhabitants now taking care of them?

As I said previously, the government, and hawks in Isreal need Hamas, as much as Hamas need them, whilst extremists, on both sides are busy killing, there can never be any lasting peace, this is more about Bibi holding on to power, for as long as he can, to avoid having to face an Israeli court. and Zionists, in his government, who are no better than modern day nazis. That A nation born from the holocaust should visit what it suffered upon others, is to me nonsensible.

 

[dcbwhaley]

It's a blatant assault on freedom of speech. Hypothetically, if I wanted to show support for Hamas (or any other "terrorist" organsation) I should be able to do so without fear of being arrested. You'd be quite within your rights to ridicule that point of view (and I'd agree with you).

They used to say that one man's terrorist was another man's freedom fighter.
And that is vey true in Gaza.
And by any objective standard the IDF is a terrorist organisation in that it kills innocent people and destroys property

 

[Cloud Strife]

would be for the territory to come under Israeli protection

It could and should be under Arab protection. There's absolutely no reason for Gaza to be anything other than a city state under Arab League administration, with the Arab League taking responsibility for border patrol and protection. The goal should be Gazan independence, and there should be a clear roadmap in place so that Gaza can gain connections to the outside world and to the State of Palestine without Israeli involvement.

The idea of Gaza and the West Bank being a cohesive State of Palestine makes zero sense. It made no sense before the war, and it makes even less sense now. What's needed is for the Arab world to step up and take responsibility for securing Gaza, both internally and also in terms of preventing attacks against Israel. Israel needs to unilaterally disengage as well, and an agreement needs to be made with the Gazans that the war can end tomorrow as long as they agree to flush out Hamas and to end any and all attacks against Israel.

The problem, ultimately, is that no-one is willing to step up to take responsibility. Essentially, the Arab world has left Israel to it, and this is perhaps the worst thing of all.