Future of the 350/2s

[Tazi Hupefi]

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, Northern don't really have a view one way or another as I understand it. They're not leading this project, but obviously are now, rightfully, quite involved.

Other interested parties (i.e. local politicians) want/expect Northern to run them. Northern just want to make sure that they will work if they're told to use them. The rolling stock owner/leasing side may also be interested in seeing them used.

 

[Mamorin]

Porterbrook will want the 350/2s on lease, and to Porterbrook it makes sense to get Northern to take the 350/2s.

If the 350/2s replace the 323s then that is 34 less trains Porterbrook have to worry about with Northern's tender for new trains.

If local politicians are involved parties then the 323s are at risk of being replaced by 350/2s.

I guess the spin to the public regarding Northern getting the 350/2s would be easy "New, Longer, Air Conditioned Trains" will be the spin, and a lot of people will most likely fall for the spin and not notice the 350/2s are cast offs from the West Midlands.

As much as I'd like the 323s to be replaced by brand new trains, I think a mid life refurbished 350/2 might be a good replacement but they do have to be able to work for Northern and that might not be possable.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The whole point is to move old and pretty close to life expired 323s and show some political will to "levelling up" in a meaningful way.

In addition, getting parts for the 323s is becoming a difficulty in itself, that not even money can resolve.

It is not a good look for some of the mayoral regions in the North to have battered and 30-40 year old rolling stock knocking around on what should be some prime local/regional routes serving major towns and cities, especially not a good look when there's far newer and better specced rolling stock laid up in sidings with no future use.

 

[Mamorin]

I understand what you are saying, and it would be nice for the North to get some newer rolling stock to replace the 323s.

I knew getting parts for the 323s would become an issue at some point, if its hard to get parts now then taking on the 350/2s as a replacement makes sense.

As sad as I will be to see the 323s go, I know their time is limited I mean they ether go this decade or they will be gone next decade.

Two things I and I suspect many others won't miss about the 323s is the lack of Air Conditioning and the windows that won't aways stay closed.

We will know it’s all over for the 323s ether once we start hearing talk of a GMPTE livered 323 or Northern confirm they are taking on the 350/2s.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I guess the spin to the public regarding Northern getting the 350/2s would be easy "New, Longer, Air Conditioned Trains" will be the spin, and a lot of people will most likely fall for the spin and not notice the 350/2s are cast offs from the West Midlands.

I won't be surprised if they use the better acceleration and higher top speed for extra advertising.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I won't be surprised if they use the better acceleration and higher top speed for extra advertising.

Based on what?
There is nowhere on their network where the 110mph (or even 100mph, really) max will benefit journey times? There won’t be time to reach the 100mph limit on the Manchester Preston corridor before they have to slow for the next station.

 

[mansonlo49]

5Q39 started the journey to Manchester Piccadilly pathed as 350 again

 

[Brubulus]

Based on what?
There is nowhere on their network where the 110mph (or even 100mph, really) max will benefit journey times? There won’t be time to reach the 100mph limit on the Manchester Preston corridor before they have to slow for the next station.

It might save a minute or so between Kidsgrove, Congleton and Macclesfield.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There won’t be time to reach the 100mph limit on the Manchester Preston corridor before they have to slow for the next station.

331s regularly reach 100mph between Salford Crescent and Bolton, the schedules had to be slowed down for swiching to 90mph limited 323s.

 

[Mamorin]

It might save a minute or so between Kidsgrove, Congleton and Macclesfield.

It should save about a minute between Congleton and Macclesfield, as I think part way between those two stations the top speed is 100mph for non tilting trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2025 ==

5Q39 started the journey to Manchester Piccadilly pathed as 350 again

Thats interesting.

Looks like more testing ether tonight or tomorrow.

 

[mansonlo49]

It should save about a minute between Congleton and Macclesfield, as I think part way between those two stations the top speed is 100mph for non tilting trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2025 ==


Thats interesting.

Looks like more testing ether tonight or tomorrow.

testjng overnight，route similar to last time

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Could potentially get above 100 on Northern's Crewe/Airport route, if not for the stops.

There was an open access operator sniffing around the 350s too, albeit would have required some conversion work, in addition to some small batteries for the final slog. I believe that interest has fizzled out and they're waiting for another fleet to become available.

 

[Mamorin]

testjng overnight，route similar to last time

Thanks.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I wonder that with the 350s are doing an overnight test to Manchester Piccadilly, which is due to potentially extend the LMWR services from Crewe to Manchester. That is what I am feeling.

 

[Mamorin]

Its another Northern test @Sutton in Ant.

This services leaves from Platform 8, the same platform the 350 is due to arrive into.

Its pathed as a 323, but its got to be the 350 thats going to Piccadilly based on the Platform and the time.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Its another Northern test @Sutton in Ant.

This services leaves from Platform 8, the same platform the 350 is due to arrive into.

Its pathed as a 323, but its got to be the 350 thats going to Piccadilly based on the Platform and the time.

It’s 350232 for tonight.

 

[Mamorin]

It’s 350232 for tonight.

Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2025 ==

I feel like another big thing with these tests is partly the Government trying to say something like "Once GBR is set up never again will good usable trains be sat in storage".

 

[BerkshireRails]

Based on what?
There is nowhere on their network where the 110mph (or even 100mph, really) max will benefit journey times? There won’t be time to reach the 100mph limit on the Manchester Preston corridor before they have to slow for the next station.

Just because you can't reach 110mph in service won't stop advertisers from boasting about the 110mph top speed. Also, the 350s have a slightly better acceleration rate at 1ms-2 than the 0.9- 0.95ms-2 for the 323s.

 

[mansonlo49]

It’s 350232 for tonight.

also a single unit like last time？

 

[pokemonsuper9]

also a single unit like last time？

you couldn't fit a double to Hadfield.
and you'd have to use UDS at every station, there'd be no purpose to it

 

[FrodshamJnct]

also a single unit like last time？

Yes.

 

[mansonlo49]

you couldn't fit a double to Hadfield.
and you'd have to use UDS at every station, there'd be no purpose to it

I thought there’s like two units coming in Piccadilly and detach somewhat like this

 

[JonathanH]

I feel like another big thing with these tests is partly the Government trying to say something like "Once GBR is set up never again will good usable trains be sat in storage".

The government are trying to send that message? Really? Who do you think has been keeping usable trains in storage until now?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

The government are trying to send that message? Really? Who do you think has been keeping usable trains in storage until now?

Indeed. Least there’s a plan for the 68s and Mk5As now!

 

[Mamorin]

The government are trying to send that message? Really?

Maybe, but it’s the DFT so who knows.

All I know is DFT really likes GBR and can't wait for it to start given that "Great British Railways Coming Soon" branding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2025 ==

Indeed. Least there’s a plan for the 68s and Mk5As now!

Its good there is a plan for those.

 

[BerkshireRails]

you couldn't fit a double to Hadfield.
and you'd have to use UDS at every station, there'd be no purpose to it

How many coaches fit on if you use a proper ASDO system, like the 450s, rather than UDS?

The government are trying to send that message? Really? Who do you think has been keeping usable trains in storage until now?

The route they are being tested on will be part of the Bee network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hadfield is only 109m according to RailwayData*, so it doesn't even fit a double 323. Which I thought it did - has it been lopped at a tight bridge or something?

Thus double units aren't a concern as they can't run now.

* https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=HDF

 

[BerkshireRails]

Hadfield is only 109m according to RailwayData*, so it doesn't even fit a double 323. Which I thought it did - has it been lopped at a tight bridge or something?

Thus double units aren't a concern as they can't run now.

* https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=HDF

So it would a slight improvement in capacity compared to now, as the trains will be around 10m longer than now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Porterbrook will want the 350/2s on lease, and to Porterbrook it makes sense to get Northern to take the 350/2s.

If the 350/2s replace the 323s then that is 34 less trains Porterbrook have to worry about with Northern's tender for new trains.

If local politicians are involved parties then the 323s are at risk of being replaced by 350/2s.

I guess the spin to the public regarding Northern getting the 350/2s would be easy "New, Longer, Air Conditioned Trains" will be the spin, and a lot of people will most likely fall for the spin and not notice the 350/2s are cast offs from the West Midlands.

As much as I'd like the 323s to be replaced by brand new trains, I think a mid life refurbished 350/2 might be a good replacement but they do have to be able to work for Northern and that might not be possable.

If the 350/2s are in a similar state to what they were in about 18 months ago when I rode one from New Street to International, then they'll need a proper comprehensive refurbishment for Northern to pass them off as an improvement. Not just the usual "new seat covers and a bit of spit and polish" that seems to be the usual standard for Northern refurbishments, even if the 3+2 is retained which it almost certainly will be: after all most* of the units they'd be replacing are also 3+2.

With my enthusiast hat on I'll be sad to see the 323s go, and it's a shame we never got the third run of units for West Yorkshire seeing as they were built in Leeds... but alas the national network isn't my personal train set!

*=Technically all "replaced" units will be 3+2, but I'm including the possibility that changes to diagrams and allocations tied in with the "new" fleet could still mean that some current 331 services become 350.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the 350/2s are in a similar state to what they were in about 18 months ago when I rode one from New Street to International, then they'll need a proper comprehensive refurbishment for Northern to pass them off as an improvement. Not just the usual "new seat covers and a bit of spit and polish" that seems to be the usual standard for Northern refurbishments, even if the 3+2 is retained which it almost certainly will be: after all most* of the units they'd be replacing are also 3+2.

They're fine, just a bit grubby. The usual Northern replacement covers/foams and a bit of paint will do them fine.