Lord Hendy decides that Advances are the Way Forward

[modernrail]

That's not how they have often been used - e.g. TPE especially used to sell advance tickets from York to Leeds up until the day before at a lower price than the walk-up fare because as it was train-specific they would get all the revenue, rather than having to split with Northern / TPE / XC / LNER. The fact that many of the trains they sold these tickets for were already over capacity with walk up and season ticket holders and would be wedged solid was clearly never a consideration.

Exactly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==

No. The eTicket will be delivered as an app-agnostic pdf file, and usually with an option to add it to Google Wallet or Apple Wallet.

Okay, that doesn’t remove the need to have a silly number of apps in the first place, nor does it remedy the confusing difference between e-tickets and mobile tickets which remain a mystery to me on several fronts.

 

[xotGD]

That's not how they have often been used - e.g. TPE especially used to sell advance tickets from York to Leeds up until the day before at a lower price than the walk-up fare because as it was train-specific they would get all the revenue, rather than having to split with Northern / TPE / XC / LNER. The fact that many of the trains they sold these tickets for were already over capacity with walk up and season ticket holders and would be wedged solid was clearly never a consideration.

That's a different scenario to my services, which are all operated by Northern.

And I would agree is an inappropriate use of Advances for a bit of financial trickery. But that's what you get with 'competition'. So hopefully a thing of the past.

 

[Haywain]

that doesn’t remove the need to have a silly number of apps in the first place,

That is your choice, not a “need” imposed by ticketing arrangements.

the confusing difference between e-tickets and mobile tickets which remain a mystery to me on several fronts.

Unless you’re travelling in Scotland you’re unlikely to encounter mTickets, so don’t worry about that.

 

[modernrail]

That is your choice, not a “need” imposed by ticketing arrangements.

Unless you’re travelling in Scotland you’re unlikely to encounter mTickets, so don’t worry about that.

It is a need if you need the various apps to perform the task of buying the right tickets to travel across multiple operators across the UK. With no single definitive point of sale that includes all the relevant functionality, that is what you need to do to piece it all together. I can assure you I am not clogging up my phone for the sake of it. My railway tab on my phone reflects the fragmented railway industry. In fact, it looks exactly like it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a need if you need the various apps to perform the task of buying the right tickets to travel across multiple operators across the UK. With no single definitive point of sale that includes all the relevant functionality, that is what you need to do to piece it all together. I can assure you I am not clogging up my phone for the sake of it. My railway tab on my phone reflects the fragmented railway industry. In fact, it looks exactly like it.

This just isn't true. In particular you can reserve with a seat selector for all TOCs that offer that themselves (and a few that don't, though a few like TPE don't work well) with Trainsplit and the Forum's variant.

Personally I just had Trainline (which doesn't charge fees for on the day purchases and does simple splits, and is a very slick and nice to use app in my view) and Trainsplit (which only charges anything extra if it finds you a split) until LNER came up on Monzo cashback. Though those who use LNER often might want that anyway to do reservations without buying a ticket. Other than that you don't really need any others.

 

[modernrail]

This just isn't true. In particular you can reserve with a seat selector for all TOCs that offer that themselves (and a few that don't, though a few like TPE don't work well) with Trainsplit and the Forum's variant.

Personally I just had Trainline (which doesn't charge fees for on the day purchases and does simple splits, and is a very slick and nice to use app in my view) and Trainsplit (which only charges anything extra if it finds you a split) until LNER came up on Monzo cashback. Though those who use LNER often might want that anyway to do reservations without buying a ticket. Other than that you don't really need any others.

In your reply you already mention some of the functionality that doesn’t pull through well! A big one for me is booking bike spaces. It seems to be improving now and Trainline seems to be pulling it through but it is all a developing story and it is really really hard to keep up what you can and can’t do on each app.

It is the same with the ticket itself. I am still in the habit of checking on the TOC app if Trainline only offers a pick up code. I am not saying they do, but I have a high level of confusion as to when it does and doesn’t do this and so like to double check. This again is an awkward and inconsistent interface for bike tickets.

I needed a bike reservation for 1 stop on a journey with EMR the other week and Trainline told me I had to pick up my tickets from a machine and the machine at my starting station (Alsager) did not print tickets. I checked on EMR’s app and it says Alsager has a ticket machine. Unbelievably, they have managed to install one (It looks new) that does’t print reserved tickets. At least checking multiple apps alerted me to the fact it was a consistent but weird message and I was able to be ready for a discussion with the guard.

I am also haunted by quite a few incidents where guards have told me ‘I need to take it up with Trainline’ and so there are plenty of times I chose to go with the operator app if the price is the same as on Trainline just a I know I have my contract directly with the company itself.

 

[Hadders]

You don't need an app to book a ticket on a smartphone. Simply go to the ticket selling website of choice which are often optimised for smartphone use.

For example, I often use the Trainsplit website on my phone to book tickets, I don't use their app. I then just store the tickets in my phone wallet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In your reply you already mention some of the functionality that doesn’t pull through well! A big one for me is booking bike spaces. It seems to be improving now and Trainline seems to be pulling it through but it is all a developing story and it is really really hard to keep up what you can and can’t do on each app.

Sorry, didn't think of bike spaces. It's something I'd like to see added to the certification requirements so all platforms must offer it to be certified. Without that it's only added on a commercial basis which means it's patchy, though Trainline indeed does it quite well (so any Trainline derived sites could easily do so too, just a matter of turning it on, just like the split functionality which was once erroneously turned on on the WMT Trainline variant and quickly off again ).

I mentioned seat selection, but it's only bad on Trainsplit on TOCs (e.g. TPE) who don't offer it at all, as they have no incentive to ensure the data is correct on the system. You can still do it, though, just the seats are displayed scattered all over the place and you have to refer to a PDF seating plan to pick the right one. I've not come across a TOC that offers seat selection on their own app/site but it doesn't work on Trainsplit because they need the data to be correct for their own selector to work.

 

[aron2smith]

I don't know how many times it has to be said but the use of eTickets does not require any extra apps.

I much much prefer paper tickets. Every time I'm forced to use etickets, I have to print them. App or not, I don't want to use my phone for that at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I much much prefer paper tickets. Every time I'm forced to use etickets, I have to print them. App or not, I don't want to use my phone for that at all.

Then print them. That's the beauty of the format; you can present them any way you like. On your phone, on a laptop screen (not yet seen anyone try balancing one over the scanner though ), tattooed to your arm...

 

[aron2smith]

Then print them. That's the beauty of the format; you can present them any way you like. On your phone, on a laptop screen (not yet seen anyone try balancing one over the scanner though ), tattooed to your arm...

The default format was always paper, now you are telling me I have to pay to print myself. Not exactly progress, is it. And ridiculous with what rail fares cost. barcodes are a pain anyway. I thought the whole point of technology was to make things simpler, but it doesn't seem to anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The default format was always paper, now you are telling me I have to pay to print myself. Not exactly progress is it. And ridiculous with what rail fares cost. barcodes are a pain anyway. I thought the whole point of technology was to make things simpler but it doesn't seem to anymore.

The majority of rail passengers disagree with you and prefer e-tickets. However, the paper options remain. An advantage of printing your own (the cost of which is negligible - 5p at most maybe?) is that you can do it at home rather than having to go to the station to do it.

 

[ainsworth74]

The default format was always paper, now you are telling me I have to pay to print myself. Not exactly progress is it. And ridiculous with what rail fares cost. Barcodes are a pain anyway. I thought the whole point of technology was to make things simpler but it doesn't seem to anymore.

Apologies but it is progress and it is simpler for the vast majority of passengers that use the railway.

Absolutely there are some people who prefer paper tickets that they can hold in their hands (my mum is one of them!) and if there was ever a suggestion that e-tickets must be shown on a device rather than it being up to the passenger whether they use a device or print it then I would be staunchly opposed.

But equally spend a bit of time paying attention to a ticket examination just as a passenger and you'll see the vast majority displaying their tickets on devices. It is simply better and preferred for most passengers than dealing with paper tickets.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The majority of rail passengers disagree with you and prefer e-tickets. However, the paper options remain. An advantage of printing your own (the cost of which is negligible - 5p at most maybe?) is that you can do it at home rather than having to go to the station to do it.

You do need a working printer... as many will attest, this is easier said than done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do need a working printer... as many will attest, this is easier said than done.

Or you just show it on a mobile device as probably 90% + of people do!

Or select collection. Some retailers won't do that if the fare is e-ticketable, but there are retailers who will. In time what you collect will be in e-ticket format, but it's still a paper ticket you haven't had to print.

 

[signed]

You do need a working printer... as many will attest, this is easier said than done.

The default format was always paper, now you are telling me I have to pay to print myself. Not exactly progress is it. And ridiculous with what rail fares cost. Barcodes are a pain anyway. I thought the whole point of technology was to make things simpler but it doesn't seem to anymore.

A smartcard is the best middle-ground for that, for flows that have them enabled, of course.

 

[aron2smith]

Apologies but it is progress and it is simpler for the vast majority of passengers that use the railway.

Absolutely there are some people who prefer paper tickets that they can hold in their hands (my mum is one of them!) and if there was ever a suggestion that e-tickets must be shown on a device rather than it being up to the passenger whether they use a device or print it then I would be staunchly opposed.

But equally spend a bit of time paying attention to a ticket examination just as a passenger and you'll see the vast majority displaying their tickets on devices. It is simply better and preferred for most passengers than dealing with paper tickets.

I have noticed most people have e-tickets (especially on Northern), the guard is often pleasantly surprised when they see I have a paper ticket out and ready. They say their job takes longer now as many people are not ready to show their ticket, either being a phone zombie (not their words!) or can't find the right portion of the ticket. I found the experience of showing a digital ticket both on iOS and Android to be a lot more clunky and unintuitive compared to the real thing. Not ideal when barriers with a queue behind you is involved! The old system works. I'm only 30 but found the old way is easier, and not for lack of trying either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==

A smartcard is the best middle-ground for that, for flows that have them enabled of course.

Yes agreed, happily use oyster for travel and contactless to buy things all the time.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I have noticed most people have e-tickets (especially on Northern), the guard is often pleasantly surprised when they see I have a paper ticket out and ready. They say their job takes longer now as many people are not ready to show their ticket, either being a phone zombie (not their words!) or can't find the right portion of the ticket. I found the experience of showing a digital ticket both on iOS and Android to be a lot more clunky and unintuitive compared to the real thing. Not ideal when barriers with a queue behind you is involved! The old system works. I'm only 30 but found the old way is easier, and not for lack of trying either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==


Yes agreed, happily use oyster for travel and contactless to buy things all the time.

Interesting and not at all aligned my my own exposure to tcket checking on the Northumberland line or LNER. The Northumberland line is interesting as most will be new to rail but the vast majority use eTickets. One thing i do know is that 45% of CCST presented to the Kings Cross gateline are the wrong portion or reciepts/reservations. eTickets in the device wallet can be shown with two clicks but don't let that spoil your narrative.

 

[aron2smith]

Interesting and not at all aligned my my own exposure to tcket checking on the Northumberland line or LNER. The Northumberland line is interesting as most will be new to rail but the vast majority use eTickets. One thing i do know is that 45% of CCST presented to the Kings Cross gateline are the wrong portion or reciepts/reservations. eTickets in the device wallt can be shown with two clicks but don't let that spoil your narrative.

Since you decided to call it a 'narrative', I won't. The old way was better. The main thing is we keep getting a choice with this. Same with cash.

I generally get on well with technology, but the user experience seems to be steadily getting worse now.

Also two clicks is my point, it used to be 1 interaction to do the exact same thing. Technology is supposed to simplify things and it doesn't anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I generally get on well with technology, but the user experience seems to be steadily getting worse now.

Does it? I find tickets easier than ever to purchase and use, with lots of great new features like seat selection and splits being worked out for me. Yet the old way, paying cash at a booking office for a paper ticket, also remains for those who want it - but it really is hardly anybody.

The price of them is another matter, but that has nothing to do with the tech used to deliver them.

 

[signed]

old way was better.

Not really, it is :

- A lot easier to loose a paper ticket than a e-ticket that can be reprinted and reaccessed on any device provided the password is known. ticket lost = value lost
- Can get defaced, wet ot demagnetized... and is irreplacable
- It's of pain having to arrive earlier to collect
- Long-distance Split-ticketing can sometimes give you like 10+ tickets and unless very organized, it will take more time to find the correct ticket in the stack than to open an app or the device wallet

Also two clicks is my point, it used to be 1 interaction to do the exact same thing. Technology is supposed to simplify things and it doesn't anymore.

That depends on people, if you have the ticket at the bottom of a handbag, suitcase, it will be lot longer to take than a phone you inevitably have in hand.

 

[Cell2025]

I have noticed most people have e-tickets (especially on Northern), the guard is often pleasantly surprised when they see I have a paper ticket out and ready. They say their job takes longer now as many people are not ready to show their ticket, either being a phone zombie (not their words!) or can't find the right portion of the ticket. I found the experience of showing a digital ticket both on iOS and Android to be a lot more clunky and unintuitive compared to the real thing. Not ideal when barriers with a queue behind you is involved! The old system works. I'm only 30 but found the old way is easier, and not for lack of trying either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==


Yes agreed, happily use oyster for travel and contactless to buy things all the time.

Interesting and not at all aligned my my own exposure to tcket checking on the Northumberland line or LNER. The Northumberland line is interesting as most will be new to rail but the vast majority use eTickets. One thing i do know is that 45% of CCST presented to the Kings Cross gateline are the wrong portion or reciepts/reservations. eTickets in the device wallet can be shown with two clicks but don't let that spoil your narrative.

Funnily enough I use Northern a lot and in my experience they're often almost gobsmacked when a paper ticket comes out. One or two have started to try and scan them out of sheer habit, presumably. Very rarely is the ticket clipped or even written on to 'cancel' it, so it seems to be a comparatively rare phenomenon based on those observations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funnily enough I use Northern a lot and in my experience they're often almost gobsmacked when a paper ticket comes out. One or two have started to try and scan them out of sheer habit, presumably. Very rarely is the ticket clipped or even written on to 'cancel' it, so it seems to be a comparatively rare phenomenon based on those observations.

To be fair I think the Carlisle muppets at Piccadilly would try to scan a cup of coffee if you waved that at them. I don't think I've ever seen such utter incompetence on the railway as that lot, and I've seen plenty.

 

[aron2smith]

Funnily enough I use Northern a lot and in my experience they're often almost gobsmacked when a paper ticket comes out. One or two have started to try and scan them out of sheer habit, presumably. Very rarely is the ticket clipped or even written on to 'cancel' it, so it seems to be a comparatively rare phenomenon based on those observations.

I've seen them try to scan my paper ticket too, it's like they are on auto-pilot! Staff in other TOCs actually look first.

 

[Cell2025]

I think the 'pleasantly surprised' look referred to isin fact just 'surprised'. At least using a machine it's clear cut as to whether a ticket is valid.

 

[Krokodil]

I generally get on well with technology, but the user experience seems to be steadily getting worse now.

Does it? I find tickets easier than ever to purchase and use, with lots of great new features like seat selection and splits being worked out for me.

That depends on people, if you have the ticket at the bottom of a handbag, suitcase, it will be lot longer to take than a phone you inevitably have in hand.

You'd like to think so, but most people using physical tickets have them tucked into a wallet in their pocket or somewhere else they can easily get at them.

While many passengers are competent at adding their ticket to their digital wallet, there are also a lot who buy tickets online and have no clue how to retrieve them. I then end up wasting my time coaching them through their emails trying to find the right one and load the correct ticket (from some retailers there might be a dozen PDF files with each family member's multiple portions of a split ticket, each having to be individually downloaded).

The worst offender is Trip.com (and to a lesser extent their sister app TrainPal). The apps are poorly laid out and when you try to view the ticket they appear in a completely random order instead of anything logical. They bait passengers in by offering discounts on railcard purchases but refuse to actually issue the digital railcard until the passenger has bought a ticket using their own app. I was off duty the other week, travelling on another operator's service and it was apparent that the girl in the seat opposite had been asked to show her 16-17 Saver by the guard 20 minutes earlier (before I boarded) but couldn't find it - her ticket for travel had not been purchased with the same app or it may have been a station purchase. I ended up telling her to buy the cheapest fare I could think of (Llanrwst to North Llanrwst Advance single for about 80p) just so that the railcard would load.

So a novice traveller (the sort we need to be encouraging to use the railway) can easily come away with the conclusion that the user experience is poor. Particularly if they get threatened with a Penalty Fare or an Anytime Single when they know that they've got their ticket/railcard somewhere, they just can't find it. @Bletchleyite you are an experienced user so you have a different perspective to many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So a novice traveller (the sort we need to be encouraging to use the railway) can easily come away with the conclusion that the user experience is poor. Particularly if they get threatened with a Penalty Fare or an Anytime Single when they know that they've got their ticket/railcard somewhere, they just can't find it. @Bletchleyite you are an experienced user so you have a different perspective to many.

True. I have expressed views on Trainpal before, though, and they weren't that polite, yet it does seem a lot of inexperienced users tend to use it when they might be better off with much maligned but far better designed Trainline.

That said, Trainline does hide Railcards a bit too if you didn't buy the ticket from them. It would be really helpful if accreditation required any app based Railcards to be directly linked from the app's front screen as they are on the RDG Railcard app (which these days seems to mostly behave itself) and if a requirement to buy a ticket to load it was explicitly banned.

 

[Krokodil]

That said, Trainline does hide Railcards a bit too if you didn't buy the ticket from them

At least they're there though. I can just tell someone "bottom right for account, railcards is at the bottom of the screen". Rather than the railcard not technically even existing until a ticket is bought from that retailer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least they're there though. I can just tell someone "bottom right for account, railcards is at the bottom of the screen". Rather than the railcard not technically even existing until a ticket is bought from that retailer.

Yes, that's utterly terrible practice.

 

[setdown]

Interesting and not at all aligned my my own exposure to tcket checking on the Northumberland line or LNER. The Northumberland line is interesting as most will be new to rail but the vast majority use eTickets. One thing i do know is that 45% of CCST presented to the Kings Cross gateline are the wrong portion or reciepts/reservations. eTickets in the device wallet can be shown with two clicks but don't let that spoil your narrative.

Eh there's certainly some pros for using CCST tickets in my experience, for as long as they still exist:

- Just a nice small card to leave on the table, which is preferable for me than having to swipe away whatever app is currently being used on my phone, and finding the right portion in the wallet app. Guard gets to see it immediately rather than waiting, which is probably nice for them.
- In the past couple of years, I've never had to get a railcard out when having my paper ticket checked. That's a nice plus as the Railcard app isn't always the most reliable, and we're back to swiping and waiting. The usage is less obvious to the guard maybe? (of course, I always hold a valid railcard for my journeys).
- It's much quicker being waved through at Piccadilly, rather than waiting for those odd phone-like devices to focus on a barcode. Yes I've got to pick up my ticket, but I'm waiting on the platform anyway, so just pick it up then.

I get it, they're on their way out, but I like using them for now.