Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[stevenedin]

461 moved to Livingston last night. No other withdrawals as far as I can see.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

According to the Lothian Buses tracker buses 49 and 293 have been out of service for several weeks.

293 was out on Tuesday?

 

[Bus9120UK]

According to the Lothian Buses tracker buses 49 and 293 have been out of service for several weeks.

49 has been off the road since February. It moved to Seafield and hasn't been moved since. No idea what's up with it.

 

[DGP]

As far as I knew, deregulation required local authorities to divest themselves of their bus operations or at the very least make them an "arms-length" operation where the authority were paid dividends but had no day-to-day operational influence over such things as fares and timetables. So if this is the case, I can't see any point in any of the non-Edinburgh authorities increasing their share holding in Lothian, apart from benefiting from any dividends that are paid.

 

[Porty]

That a curious take on public finances and governance. The shares are worth a considerable amount of money (and generate a dividend) and it would be highly irresponsible for a council just to give them away to another. It is not clear what benefit such a shareholding change would bring.

..and I believe local authorities can just "give away" assets, they have to get best value.

 

[InOban]

I believe it's a few years since a dividend has been paid

 

[Porty]

I believe it's a few years since a dividend has been paid

Quite a hefty dividend paid pre COVID from memory.

 

[Lothian285]

I believe it's a few years since a dividend has been paid

They returned a dividend of £3.2m for 2023: https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2024/03/lothian-returns-3-2m-dividend-to-shareholders/

 

[oldman]

They returned a dividend of £3.2m for 2023: https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2024/03/lothian-returns-3-2m-dividend-to-shareholders/

But not 2024. The new annual accounts have just been posted at Companies House here. Passenger numbers up but operating margin and profit down.

 

[Bus9120UK]

But not 2024. The new annual accounts have just been posted at Companies House here. Passenger numbers up but operating margin and profit down.

Your link doesn't work - here is a working one. On a separate note, there is a section which discusses net zero targets with estimates on the electric buses expected to arrive each year.

 

[Resuwen]

Yep, essentially 50 new vehicles a year, every year

 

[NorthEastern]

Your link doesn't work - here is a working one. On a separate note, there is a section which discusses net zero targets with estimates on the electric buses expected to arrive each year.

I don’t think that link is working either

 

[Simon75]

Does the dividend go into the councils main pot of money, or is it ring fenced for public transport ?

 

[DunsBus]

@overthewater How do you propose that East, Mid and West Lothian councils increase their shareholding in Lothian Buses? I wouldn't be against such a move, especially as Lothian has expanded from its traditional city operations.


Responsibility for public transport lay with Lothian Regional Council prior to the 1996 local government re-organisation and it became the responsibility of the new unitary councils thereafter. I don't know how the shares of what was LRT were allocated (and I'd be interested to find out), but the old City of Edinburgh district council didn't have any say in the matter.

Could you explain what you mean by "since tech there were all giving them for free"? It doesn't make any sense to me.

The shares in what was LRT were allocated according to the mileage operated in each of the council areas that replaced Lothian Regional Council. Edinburgh 91%, Midlothian 5%, East Lothian 3% and West Lothian 1%.

 

[stevenedin]

929 has been withdrawn for now according to bustimes. 942 is back again.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

929 has been withdrawn for now according to bustimes. 942 is back again.

Yes I went down to Marine/Seafield yesterday and I had a few interesting findings. Not expecting much but I lucked out a bit.

By coincidence I seen 726 arrive on trade plates so that one is now here. As you say, 942 wasn’t on the withdrawn line of buses at all - it was frozen. 929 however was there along with 841, 842, 845, 849, 940 and 944. I didn’t find 942 at the time which I was slightly annoyed about! Again by luck I would see it on Milton Road a couple of hours later before it went on the 141.

Clearly 929 being parked up is a suggestion that the white ones might not be staying at ECB at all. I would be amazed if 496 therefore doesn’t go across and I suspect it could be the next bus freed up. However that still leaves ECB short by 5 if 937-950 are all removed too.

Possible outcome is:

726 and 738 in at Central - they’re currently 2 buses down, but one gap is from 1065 so it should allow one bus to depart regardless leaving the number buses they’re down at one.

397 moves to Marine.

679 moves to Longstone.

496 moves to Seafield for repaint and refurbishment.

 

[stevenedin]

Yes I went down to Marine/Seafield yesterday and I had a few interesting findings. Not expecting much but I lucked out a bit.

By coincidence I seen 726 arrive on trade plates so that one is now here. As you say, 942 wasn’t on the withdrawn line of buses at all - it was frozen. 929 however was there along with 841, 842, 845, 849, 940 and 944. I didn’t find 942 at the time which I was slightly annoyed about! Again by luck I would see it on Milton Road a couple of hours later before it went on the 141.

Clearly 929 being parked up is a suggestion that the white ones might not be staying at ECB at all. I would be amazed if 496 therefore doesn’t go across and I suspect it could be the next bus freed up.

Possible outcome is:

726 and 738 in at Central - they’re currently 2 buses down, but one gap is from 1065 so it should allow one bus to depart regardless leaving the number buses they’re down at one.

397 moves to Marine.

679 moves to Longstone.

496 moves to Seafield for repaint and refurbishment.

Thanks for the update. Interesting times ahead. I suspect that 934 and 935 will be here for a while due to their all over advertisements and 936 will probably stay as long as 926-928 due to the livery being correct. They do have lots of free green buses (841-850) to step in to replace the white ones if needed.

I've just thought thay maybe 934 and 935 will replace 905 and 906 on the uni shuttles at some point.

 

[Resuwen]

934/5 with overall ads - the ads are for a summer campaign rather than anything long term

 

[robertclark125]

is North Bewick depot still in use, on Google maps doesn't look that big,look more like an outstation than a depot

Yes it is. In First days, it was an outstation of Musselburgh, but about 2010, it was upgraded to a full depot, following service and diagram changes. The total fleet is twelve vehicles.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Yes it is. In First days, it was an outstation of Musselburgh, but about 2010, it was upgraded to a full depot, following service and diagram changes. The total fleet is twelve vehicles.

Upgraded in what way? I've seen them washing and cleaning buses there; I didn't think they did any maintenance there though?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Upgraded in what way? I've seen them washing and cleaning buses there; I didn't think they did any maintenance there though?

They don’t. From an ECB perspective it’s still an outstation. No buses are allocated to it, they just stay there overnight. There are a very small number of drivers who are based out of it though.

 

[robertclark125]

Upgraded in what way? I've seen them washing and cleaning buses there; I didn't think they did any maintenance there though?

Upgraded to a fully staffed depot. Has its own staff, own allocation of vehicles, which don't get changed every day, and has supervision. There are limited maintenance facilities, but large work gets done elsewhere. Bit like stagecoach east Scotland St. Andrews depot.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Upgraded to a fully staffed depot. Has its own staff, own allocation of vehicles, which don't get changed every day, and has supervision. There are limited maintenance facilities, but large work gets done elsewhere. Bit like stagecoach east Scotland St. Andrews depot.

North Berwick isn’t a full depot anymore in that case. It’s an outstation of Musselburgh once again and will have been since the Lothian takeover in 2016. It does not have a fixed allocation of vehicles. They float in and out regularly from Musselburgh. As I say there’s a very small number of drivers allocated to it. It does not do maintenance at all, but buses are still washed by hand much like the past. There are a very small number of drivers allocated to it. I want to say as few as 10, possibly even less than that. Musselburgh staff did have rotas out of North Berwick which can start and end there, but they make their own way to and from North Berwick directly. This practice may have ended since though.

Dunbar is a trickier one to judge as it’s shared with Eve, it has a slightly larger amount of drivers allocated to it, maintenance can be carried out by the staff, but only everyday maintenance. As per the rest of ECB all longer jobs are done at Marine hence the constant swaps. Vehicles wise 191-192, 197-199 don’t really work out of another depot, but it’s not impossible either. The Eclipse3’s however are floated.

 

[stevenedin]

454 has now moved to Livingston.

 

[Tom B]

The shares in what was LRT were allocated according to the mileage operated in each of the council areas that replaced Lothian Regional Council. Edinburgh 91%, Midlothian 5%, East Lothian 3% and West Lothian 1%.

It's interesting to see the mileage as it was in the 90s - it obviously expanded quite significantly as LRT moved into Midlothian and East Lothian extending traditional 'city' services. I wonder what the proportion would be like today? West Lothian had no LRT services at one point (save for the N109 I think it was numbered, which ran from Longstone as effectively a staff bus - registered for, presumably, fuel duty rebate reasons).

 

[LothianBusesPh]

save for the N109 I think it was numbered

109 - close enough!

 

[Siemens Trains]

It's interesting to see the mileage as it was in the 90s - it obviously expanded quite significantly as LRT moved into Midlothian and East Lothian extending traditional 'city' services. I wonder what the proportion would be like today? West Lothian had no LRT services at one point (save for the N109 I think it was numbered, which ran from Longstone as effectively a staff bus - registered for, presumably, fuel duty rebate reasons).

The network has ebbed and flowed over time, depending on travel patterns and the operations of other bus companies. In the 1980s Eastern Scottish covered quite a few city routes and LRT did less of their traditional work but served more of the outlying areas. I think this changed via something many suspect as a "gentleman's agreement" shortly before Lothian Region's responsibilities were moved off to either the new councils or some other tier of government.

On the subject of the 109, I don't believe this was actively advertised but I recall services numbered 101 to 106. But were numbers 107 and 108 used for anything, perhaps in East Lothian? Sometimes the 101 to 106 were financially-supported routes - possibly the Sunday to Thursday night journeys (or maybe they were called 201 to 206). I can't imagine the 109 being subsidised in the same way though.

 

[LiviCrazy]

The network has ebbed and flowed over time, depending on travel patterns and the operations of other bus companies. In the 1980s Eastern Scottish covered quite a few city routes and LRT did less of their traditional work but served more of the outlying areas. I think this changed via something many suspect as a "gentleman's agreement" shortly before Lothian Region's responsibilities were moved off to either the new councils or some other tier of government.

On the subject of the 109, I don't believe this was actively advertised but I recall services numbered 101 to 106. But were numbers 107 and 108 used for anything, perhaps in East Lothian? Sometimes the 101 to 106 were financially-supported routes - possibly the Sunday to Thursday night journeys (or maybe they were called 201 to 206). I can't imagine the 109 being subsidised in the same way though.

109 used to be listed in the West Lothian Council timetable books along with every other bus route in the area.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

109 used to be listed in the West Lothian Council timetable books along with every other bus route in the area.

I forgot all about the 109, that was a throwback, it was rarely talked about, up untill the N28 was introduced and they withdrew the 109 (after finally announcing the service to the public for the first time since the 90's)

 

[DunsBus]

The network has ebbed and flowed over time, depending on travel patterns and the operations of other bus companies. In the 1980s Eastern Scottish covered quite a few city routes and LRT did less of their traditional work but served more of the outlying areas. I think this changed via something many suspect as a "gentleman's agreement" shortly before Lothian Region's responsibilities were moved off to either the new councils or some other tier of government.

On the subject of the 109, I don't believe this was actively advertised but I recall services numbered 101 to 106. But were numbers 107 and 108 used for anything, perhaps in East Lothian? Sometimes the 101 to 106 were financially-supported routes - possibly the Sunday to Thursday night journeys (or maybe they were called 201 to 206). I can't imagine the 109 being subsidised in the same way though.

107 was used twice under LRT, in both cases for a Hogmanay night bus service between Edinburgh and Mayfield in place of SMT's 7N.

101-106 were the weekend night bus services. The midweek financially-supported ones were the 201-205.

As I recall the gentleman's agreement between LRT and Eastern Scottish - by then SMT - was in December 1994, not long after the latter was bought out by GRT Bus Group. Eastern Scottish cancelled four ot its seven City Sprinter services, whilst LRT scrapped two services into West Lothian and curtailed two others to operate wholly within Edinburgh.