Tube trains on Harrogate Line

[anthony263]

D78 Stock is in better state than the pacers since it was refurbished recently. Any transfer of stock to the Harrogate line would mean another refurb before operation, which would probably add 15 to 20 years to the lifetime of the stock.



Well the District line is approximately 64km, whilst the Harrogate line is shorter at approximately 62km



The plan is to convert D78 stock to side conductor rail pickup like the DLR.




D78s max speed is 60mph and managed to reach 70mph on the D78 Stock Metroliner tour on the Metropolitan Line

This proposal is actually serious, with Mark Leving, former MD of First Hull Trains, being project director: railnews article

Had a laught about this when i 1st read it.

Nice idea perhaps in theory, not sure how it would work out in a practical sense though.

Next i will be reading that they want to use C & D stock on the cardiff valley lines if they are electrified.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/07/15-district-line-to-harrogate-electrification.html

The article also mentions that all the D stock is expected to be withdrawn by 2014. More like 2015/2016 the way things are going at Bombardier. I noticed they are qouting Mc Nulty's reconmendations.

 

[tbtc]

The cost is apparently £150m, for electrification and stock (20 6 car D78s with 10 spare). It cost approx £120m for 69 cars of Class 172 for LM services. Each 6 car D78 provides 280 seats. To provide a similar number of seats with a 172, you probably need 4 cars. So 4*20 units = 80 cars, which would probably cost approxmatetly £140m, only £10m less than the D78 proposal

You'd need five trains for the regular daytime service, add on a couple for peak extras plus a couple for "contingency" and you'd still be talking half your figure.

Plus a brand new 172 obviously has a much longer lifespan than a thirty year old London Underground train.

Plus a 172 can obviously be used to interwork with other Yorkshire routes, which your D78 stock cannot do.

Plus a 172 is DDA complaint with a toilet etc (important on these kind of journeys).

Plus...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if all the scrap dealers are rubbing their hands at the thought of a new source of metal for the locals to try and "nick".

 

[swt_passenger]

The plan is to convert D78 stock to side conductor rail pickup like the DLR.

To be more accurate, the DLR is shrouded bottom contact - I suspect they really mean 'at the side' rather than between the tracks.

However DLR type third rail is definitely still allowed for new installations - the flip side is that it does not allow the relatively high speeds of conventional top contact third rail, but that's not a limiting factor for D stock...

 

[tbtc]

Similarly, in London you have access to built up areas to put substations in (DC is notorious for leakage especially since IIRC it runs at a higher current than the 25kV AC overhead).

I'm not entirely sure what lies between the two destinations but I doubt it's urban sprawl. In addition what effect would the weather have on either the third rail or the train itself, it doesn't exactly look like it's well insulated after all. LU rarely have to deal with poor weather even with outer running on the District

Good point.

The line is pretty rural for most of the route between Horsforth (suburb of Leeds, formerly biggest village in the country) and Poppleton (outskirts of York), its basically "Emmerdale" country out there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Next we will be hearing of a proposal as such that S-stock trains can go on the WCML in order to displace 350s which can be cascaded to Northern! (Now I suppose some of you would like this )

Are you the famous "Class 172" that everyone seems to want on the new Super-Northern franchaise. When will you be making your first State Visit?

 

[Metrailway]

You'd need five trains for the regular daytime service, add on a couple for peak extras plus a couple for "contingency" and you'd still be talking half your figure.

Plus a brand new 172 obviously has a much longer lifespan than a thirty year old London Underground train.

Plus a 172 can obviously be used to interwork with other Yorkshire routes, which your D78 stock cannot do.

Plus a 172 is DDA complaint with a toilet etc (important on these kind of journeys).

Plus...

The railnews article I linked previously says at least a 4tph frequency would be run, thus the need of 20 units of D78s.

But, I do agree with all your other points

 

[northwichcat]

The cost is apparently £150m, for electrification and stock (20 6 car D78s with 10 spare). It cost approx £120m for 69 cars of Class 172 for LM services. Each 6 car D78 provides 280 seats. To provide a similar number of seats with a 172, you probably need 4 cars. So 4*20 units = 80 cars, which would probably cost approxmatetly £140m, only £10m less than the D78 proposal

The D78s aren't due to be replaced until 2015 now so it must be the C77 stock that the BBC News article is referring to for a 2014 start date.

The C77 stock used in the District Line is actually one of the shortest formations of LU stock due to shorter platforms between High Street Kensington and Edgware Road. In 6 car formation, as present, it a unit is 91.62m long. Therefore it is slightly shorter than a 4 car 156 or equivalent.

The D78s are a total length of 109.22m so I imagine there would be some platforms on the Harrogate line unable to take D78s, which would be another reason why it would be C77s opposed to D78s.

However, I've noticed a further issue in that the C77 stock is 2.92m wide, opposed to the 2.82m width which the usual maximum width for NR carriages.

 

[DarloRich]

if you are going to spend the money on a third rail system for York-Harrogate-Leeds ( ffs - cant believe I am writing this :roll which I doubt NR will ever have the money or inclination for, would you not just cascade, say, 455/456/507/508 units to the area once they are replaced with something new. (In fact it would be a home coming for these units!)

BUT THIS IS TOTAL AND UTTER WIBBLE - it will never, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. Why on earth would you design a geographically isolated system for one small line? What would be the point? Imagine the cost in installing the system, training maintenance people, drivers, staff, sorting out the trains, building a dept for the trains (where would they live? Holgate? Neville Hill? Old Mother Shiptons Cave? A drag every night to Kirkdale )

Do Harrogate Chamber of Commerce (or whoever) propose to run the trains themselves? I bet Northern will be REALLY pleased to add a third form of traction to their area and acquire a small fleet of vehicles that they have to pay shed loads to maintain because they don’t have the skills or recourses to look after the fleet.

MADNESS!

 

[Waverley125]

as someone who regularly uses this line, I'd much rather have proper OHL and the 317s that will eventually get cascaded off of Great Eastern, or the 313s/318s. We can buy new stock later, the 70s EMUs are no worse, after a refresh, than the 150s we've got. Plus this would release the 153s & 155s, though lovely, to somewhere they can be better used, such as the LNWR.

 

[northwichcat]

I've now got visions of Lou and Andy off Little Britain being behind this scheme.

Andy points to a LU train and says "I want that one." Lou says "That one's an old train are you sure you wouldn't like a nice new train instead." Andy points to a LU train again and says "I want that one."

Then when it's up and running Andy points to the new Merseyrail/Thameslink stock and says "I want that one."

 

[telstarbox]

I wish that you had not bothered to post this thread in the first place.:roll:

What's the problem? :P

 

[DarloRich]

as someone who regularly uses this line, I'd much rather have proper OHL and the 317s that will eventually get cascaded off of Great Eastern, or the 313s/318s. We can buy new stock later, the 70s EMUs are no worse, after a refresh, than the 150s we've got. Plus this would release the 153s & 155s, though lovely, to somewhere they can be better used, such as the LNWR.

There will not be an 25Kv on this line either! There is no need nor financial resources available for this kind of work - Sorry

 

[Class172]

Are you the famous "Class 172" that everyone seems to want on the new Super-Northern franchaise. When will you be making your first State Visit?

Hmmmm... I'll consider it at some point in the future... (no mentioning when!)

 

[Waverley125]

There will not be an 25Kv on this line either! There is no need nor financial resources available for this kind of work - Sorry

no, but it'd be a good candidate for wiring in future. 3rd rail is incompatible with currently technologies and precludes us getting better, newer stuff in future.

 

[YorkshireBear]

We could just leave the line alone, seems radical to me but you never know do you! Or a step better get it electrified properly to fit in with the rest of the REGION!!!! and try and get the 332s from down south. Or 323's or 319's or 317's just not LU stock.....

Absolute joke article, if this gets passed through i will loose all hope and not bother working in railways.... Im sure somewhere else will take me.

 

[DarloRich]

no, but it'd be a good candidate for wiring in future. 3rd rail is incompatible with currently technologies and precludes us getting better, newer stuff in future.

no it isnt on its own.

I COULD see WYPTE (or whatever they are called now) making a case to Harrogate (JUST) if they rolled it up with some other works but the whole line? Not sure really.

Third rail is just cloud cuckoo land! 25Kv is only mildly insane!

 

[Waverley125]

Harrogate line is a very good candidate all the way. Leeds & 3 (possible four in future) stations in the city area, then connecting Harrogate, Knaresborough and York. Current poor stock & poor service level preclude grwoth, but given the appalling state of the roads, any improvements will exponentially pay themselves back.

Also acts as a diversionary route for both EC & TPE.

 

[WestCoast]

Let's face it, third rail doesn't really have a future outside of the traditional areas.

As for the tube trains, there is more chance of coupled up Pacers running in 10-car formation on inner London workings for Southern, SE and SWT.

Now that I would like to see...

 

[DarloRich]

i just dont think there is any money, now or in the near future to electrify this line. Surely some decent diesel stock would be easier to arrnage.

 

[theblackwatch]

I used to get that service to school every day before they pulled it. I remember they had 37405 running on it as well.

You used it to go to school, I used it to go to the pub! Yes 405 was the third (and less reliable) one. Other 'guests' that appeared were 042/372/521/698.

I seem to remember the Harrogate Advertiser & local press making a big thing about the comfy air conditioned train when the ATN 37s started (and to be fair, a lot of passengers liked it too). Wonder how they'll make out that cast-off tube trains with no toilets are better!

 

[vectra33]

http://www.harrogatechamber.org/harrogateline.htm


This is the original source of the story

(apologies to the mods for posting it in a sepersate thread)

dave

 

[Capybara]

Crikey. Where to start? How about: putting up wires across the viaducts at Knaresborough and Crimple would be unsightly, yet at the same time they want to whack a great big park and ride in the middle of lovely peaceful country side at Cattal.

 

[route:oxford]

Ok, so rule out the 3rd rail...

How would they do as LHCS, with cabs updated to be capable of acting as a DVT.

 

[CheekyBandit]

Let's face it, third rail doesn't really have a future outside of the traditional areas.

It didn't have much of a future in two such traditional areas - Manchester and Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

 

[JohnB57]

I think this quote speaks volumes about the lack of understanding behind this project: -

Gary Verity, Chief Executive of Welcome to Yorkshire said “Upgrading of the Harrogate Line Train Services with modern ground level electrification will give a massively improved level of service for all train users including leisure and business related tourists. We are particularly keen that our visitors are able to move around the county using a rail service that reflects this modernity.”​

Forty year old trains running on what is basically over a century old in terms if rail technology and this has been sold to Mr Verity as "modern". Hmmm.

 

[tbtc]

no it isnt on its own.

I COULD see WYPTE (or whatever they are called now) making a case to Harrogate (JUST) if they rolled it up with some other works but the whole line? Not sure really.

Third rail is just cloud cuckoo land! 25Kv is only mildly insane!

Harrogate would work fine as a stand alone 25kv electrification, since its already wired at both ends, so its not dependant upon other schemes.

With the exception of the one London service a day (which runs under wires for the rest of the journey) the Harrogate line is pretty much self contained, so a perfect candidate for normal electrification.

However the fact that most of the line lies outside West Yorkshire means WYPTE/Metro don't have the influence over it that they'd need in order to make it a priority.

 

[IanXC]

I read this in the paper on the way to work this morning. Still cant believe that anyone is seriously considering it. DafT ideas are one thing, but Harrogate Chamber of Commerce take the whole thing to a new level.

A fleet of 172s seems like a much better idea. But anyway where is this magical £150m coming from?!

Or is this a case of LUL's efforts to sell of what will be redundant stock?!

 

[tom1649]

Or is this a case of LUL's efforts to sell of what will be redundant stock?!

As far as I know LUL will be quite happy to sell them for scrap. They always have been in the past.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh my God,

Are we really having discussions regarding the unsightlyness of OHL? Surely this is all nonsense - look at the Royal Border Bridge !?

There is no reason why OHL across Knaresborough cannot be tasteful and well designed.

Electrifying with third rail may seem silly, but WYPTE and McNulty fuel such sillyness by suggesting non-standard tram conversions rather than just electrifying the route with OHL, which is what needs to be done.