Why so many delays on the WCML every day?

[The Planner]

Why isn't there an allowance in the timetable for the brake test? Every Elizabeth line train will do one shortly after leaving Reading. It gets more difficult for locations/TOCs where only some trains change driver.

There should be for GWR. Its in the TPRs section 5.3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2025 ==

Even today. Caught the 9:00 to Euston from Preston it left 10 late and then got stopped outside Crewe and then places on the slow line just past Stafford which lost another 10 minutes and then was stuck behind a stopping service into Euston

10 late following 4M27. Then it had to follow 1G46 from Weaver. Axle Counter failure between Madeley and Stafford. Then you followed the Manchester into Euston.

 

[Peter0124]

Last Thurs I think it was, I was on a delayed Pendo out of Euston, and in the middle of a flight of 6. All at least 15+ late departing. Monitoring progress, I could see the first 3 of the flight (including mine) kept around a maximum spacing of 4 signal sections apart once out of Camden, so running on a technical headway of about 80 seconds.

When you say 4 signal sections apart, do you mean a gap of 4 empty berths in-between the two trains, or are you including the rear train's berth in the count (ie only a gap of 3 then)?

 

[800301]

Why isn't there an allowance in the timetable for the brake test? Every Elizabeth line train will do one shortly after leaving Reading. It gets more difficult for locations/TOCs where only some trains change driver.

There generally is an performance allowance for performing a brake test, at least the Class 800’s have one

 

[snookertam]

I‘m not sure about that in this day and age. The RSSB has done research into this which demonstrates the running brake tests are not needed on modern stock under normal running. Arguably doing a running brake test is less safe as it causes signals in rear to be red for longer than necessary.

And specifically for Euston, I have lost count of the number of trains I have been on that have departed on a cautionary aspect, braked for a red at WM603 or 605, and then done a brake test around Camden or South Hampstead …

Good luck to anyone trying to convince drivers that running brake tests are not necessary.

They might not be technically necessary, but for the drivers’ own confidence in the train it’s probably worthwhile to have.

A better solution would be to build in 30 seconds to a minute into schedules to allow for running brake tests to take place.

 

[Straus]

- Really busy so any delays risk being compounded by slower running services being routed in front.

- Insufficient focus north of crewe, in the south the WCML is essentially it's own route for asset management, so has it's own team of specialised management. In the north it's bundled in to the NW route, so the same management fixing issues on the WCML will have to divert their attention to an issue at Dent, or Blackburn or Toxteth.

- Ageing infrastructure - a lot of stuff is really life expired and just being propped up at the moment.

 

[318266]

The other Sunday I travelled on the 1M10 0934 GLC-EUS. Leaving just late enough to seemingly lose our path, we get held outside Carlisle (unexplained), around Preston (trespassers), then was stuck behind an all-stops LNWR from Acton Bridge to Crewe, then behind another from there to Stafford, upon which we get stuck behind a diverted Manchester... by the time we get to Wembley Central it's 47L and then we have to move to the slow lines (point failure) to finally arrive at Euston 1 hour and 6 seconds late.

...I'm getting Flixbus back up.

 

[swaldman]

Heading south on the WCML today, and on leaving Crewe we have been told that,
(a) signalling issue between Crewe and Stafford means they are down to using just the slow lines for that stretch, and
(b) derailment somewhere in the south has stopped all traffic between Euston and MK (though hopefully that'll clear before we get there)

None of that sounds like anybody's fault, but it sounds like another difficult day!

 

[Tony2]

Had delays travelling on the 0652 Edinburgh- Crewe Pendolino on Tuesday.

Realtime Trains | 9M50 0652 Edinburgh to London Euston | 24/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 9M50 0652 departure from Edinburgh to London Euston on 24/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Firstly, for some unknown reason the signaller let the 6K10 engineers train to Carlisle out right in front of us at Slateford!

Our speed was noticeably slow until we came to a stop near Carstairs, the train manager advised of signalling problems in the area. That and the freight in front caused a 20 minute combined delay. Once we finally passed the looped freight at Lockerbie, speed noticeably picked up, but another 2 freight were allowed in front which slowed progress considerably. Can’t remember which specifically, but I remember passing 4M27 and a DRS 66 on engineers wagons after they were eventually looped.

This resulted in a 39 minute overall late arrival in Crewe and another delay repay claim, to be fair this was approved today.

On the return 1909 Crewe- Edinburgh, there were no freights in front and surprise surprise, an on time arrival.

Hopefully, if the new class 93s are let loose on the WCML with 100mph capable wagons, they may integrate more seamlessly with the passenger trains on the WCML.

 

[jfowkes]

If only there were some sort of project to provide more capacity and resilience for the WCML. Perhaps some kind of modern High Speed network to connect London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Crewe, Leeds... We could call it something snappy like "High Speed Two". We can only dream.

 

[Horizon22]

I mean there was an intention to build a "High Speed 2" network, a key benefit of which was to help relieve capacity on the West Coast Main Line...

 

[godfreycomplex]

If only there were some sort of project to provide more capacity and resilience for the WCML. Perhaps some kind of modern High Speed network to connect London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Crewe, Leeds... We could call it something snappy like "High Speed Two". We can only dream.

Absolutely bonkers who would think of such a thing not in a million years not I said the walrus

 

[Peter0124]

There also seems to be some disruption up north, 1M13 (12:40 GLC-EUS) has reversed into Carstairs platform, trains are also being held in Glasgow Central, Carlisle and Preston

Unsure if its related to the disruption further south or if a new seperate incident

 

[SCDR_WMR]

You can travel on the WCML every week, and every week you will have a different experience. It's great when stuff like this happens though, it keeps it varied. Non-stop through Crewe centre road, slow line instead of fast, running wrong line, platform 3 at Penrith, stuck behind heavy freight going up Shap etc. It's what makes travelling the WCML so fun in my opinion, it's always a different experience, something else unusual to tick off the list!

You can add derailment if you on the WCML South today

 

[Purple Train]

You sure it wasn’t for the 50mph TSR that was there for over a year that’s finally gone?

Pretty sure, as the speeds involved don't feel like 50mph, but I wasn't aware of the TSR, thanks

 

[IslandDweller]

But to add context. The EUR-GLC train journey, even with a few delays, is still way faster than a road journey. We drove from Glasgow to east London yesterday. The driving time was 8 hours but of course you have to stop for comfort breaks, so add that on and it was nine hours. I lost count of the number of delays due to roadworks, then a serious accident forced us off the M11 onto B roads.
The issue is an overcrowded island and not enough investment in infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good luck to anyone trying to convince drivers that running brake tests are not necessary.

They might not be technically necessary, but for the drivers’ own confidence in the train it’s probably worthwhile to have.

A better solution would be to build in 30 seconds to a minute into schedules to allow for running brake tests to take place.

Well of course most running brake tests don’t actually test the brakes…

 

[james_the_xv]

Surely more allowances on faster services would increase capacity in terms of blending with slower services. I get that wouldn’t be the case for the slower stuff though

Potentially, you'd still decrease the amount of standard paths available though.

They are all uplifted anyway as part of the process. Everything has to be a multiple of ½ minutes. The technical green to green headway on vast sections can be as low as 80-85 seconds, its planned at 180. You would never firebreak after two trains.

Headways is less useful in this scenario indeed, but the bottom line is less trains = better performance as proved by COVID

 

[The Planner]

Potentially, you'd still decrease the amount of standard paths available though.


Headways is less useful in this scenario indeed, but the bottom line is less trains = better performance as proved by COVID

That is never going to happen though.

 

[Tilting007]

There also seems to be some disruption up north, 1M13 (12:40 GLC-EUS) has reversed into Carstairs platform, trains are also being held in Glasgow Central, Carlisle and Preston

Unsure if its related to the disruption further south or if a new seperate incident

It is / was related…

 

[londonmidland]

WCML North disrupted now due to damaged OLE at Garstang, between Lancaster and Preston.

 

[Peter0124]

Apparently there's overhead damage at Lancaster to add to the issues

 

[hexagon789]

WCML North disrupted now due to damaged OLE at Garstang, between Lancaster and Preston.

Up (southbound) Line?

 

[londonmidland]

Apparently there's overhead damage at Lancaster to add to the issues

The contact wire has been damaged and is now tangled, so I've heard.

 

[Russel]

Every time I use the WCML, I'm constantly waiting for something to go wrong, or for Euston to be in total chaos when I get there...

Walking into Euston and seeing a lot of red on the departure board is becoming far too common.

I have Avanti's delay repay bookmarked for a reason.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just to say that the derailment in the Bletchley area has its own thread here:

Low-speed, empty stock derailment at Bletchley (26/06)

I'm now hearing 5Y26 has derailed just south of Milton Keynes... Not 100% certain in my source but something has certainly happened as nothing is moving.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ayubdaud]

Realtime Trains | 1S48 0930 London Euston to Glasgow Central | 25/06/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S48 0930 departure from London Euston to Glasgow Central on 25/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I assume this was the train you were on. It often does get delayed north of Carlisle because of 4S43 (Tesco freight) being slow infront of it for a while.

4S43 itself is delayed regularly due to following TPE 1S46 at Floriston. The length of 4S43 means once it's left Carlisle it can only be looped at Carstairs so the signallers have to be careful when they depart it. The additional Avanti 9S47 means the gap between 1S45 and 1S46, where 4S43 could be sent in between, has been lost.

 

[londonmidland]

Contingency plans may be in place for this weekend on the WCML due to extreme heat conditions. This may also affect other lines too. Details tbc.

 

[pnepaul]

I see 1M15 - 15.38 Glasgow to Euston has left Lancaster 292 minutes late - source Tracksy and RTT. There also appears to be congestion at Preston as well, most platforms occupied.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

I see 1M15 - 15.38 Glasgow to Euston has left Lancaster 292 minutes late - source Tracksy and RTT. There also appears to be congestion at Preston as well, most platforms occupied.

Not quite getting my head round the fact that it spent 2 hours at Penrith but ok

 

[rmHawk765]

Headways is less useful in this scenario indeed, but the bottom line is less trains = better performance as proved by COVID

Well obviously, but there's not really an option here.

I think the main reason for all this all boils down to how busy the WCML, especially the southern section, really is. There's only so much you can do to minimise delays when at many points you have trains running with ~80s headways on all lines. You have the freight mixed with the stoppers on the slow lines so if a freight has to stop it will inevitably delay stoppers due to its slow acceleration, and there obviously aren't any loops so you kind of just have to deal with it. Then you have the issue that any issue, e.g signal, points, OHLE failure, broken down train etc. will have a massive knock-on effect as all these close-together trains are slowed down or diverted around the issue. You also can't forget that having so many trains only makes the chance of these issues happening way more likely. And when all the down traffic gets to the northern double tracked sections it gets even worse because now all that delayed traffic that varies in performance is truly mixed together - it's a shame the northern sections aren't worked on anywhere near as much. Mind you, a lot of it isn't going all the way, but a fair bit still is and it's enough to make the situation worse.

I think it just really goes to show that we've sort of hit the reasonable limit of how many different trains you can shove onto one railway, no matter how well engineered it may be. Don't forget the, WCML is the busiest mixed use trunk railway in Europe. The WCMLS has been rather heavily focussed on for improvements if you actually take a look at its history - everything about modern day Euston is designed to minimise and deal with existing delays, it got well engineered electrification quite early on, there have been many signalling upgrades etc. This is why HS2 needs to go all the way - it makes things a lot of easier if you take a large chunk of the fast Avanti services off the WCML.