Cross Country Voyagers - rear set locked out of use?

[SemaphoreJoy]

Yes, and thanks, but the real question is why this has changed all of a sudden. Has there been an incident after which RSMs/drivers are no longer considered competent? After all it’s been ok for the last few years…

I believe it was union pressure

 

[Hairyspotter]

Just to add some perhaps pertinent information to this thread, as someone who operates Voyagers on a daily basis.

The door egress/passcom and call for aid systems are separate on a Voyager. The passcom & door egress DO create an alarm in the driving cab and brake application and the driver has a means to override them and stop the train in a suitable location and investigate as applicable.

However, there is a separate call for aid system, which when operated, DOES NOT notify the driver - this system is in effect a supplement to the passcom and can be found in toilets and by the disabled traveller locations - the likely reason for this I imagine was to weed out unnecessary passom alarms such as, say, a class 170, where 99.99% of passcom activations are people pressing the passcom to flush the toilet or an inquisitive child being allowed by their parents to press a big red button. I'm sure that when Voyagers were originally introduced these alarms came through to the cab, but the sheer amount of unnecessary level 3 alarms led to the current setup.

So, I believe the reason for one customer facing staff member per set was to manage those calls for aid in particular, as otherwise the driver wouldn't know anything about it. I imagine also in this day of PRM legislation, were a person in a wheelchair left to their own devices having pressed a call for aid and overcarried or not assisted off the train at ther desired destination that there would be some comeback.

It's not really for me to comment on the politics of the situation, but blaming trade unions for everything that people don't like on the railway isn't the answer either. And remember, as staff most of us don't particularly like the situation either.

 

[43066]

I believe it was union pressure

For the reasons outlined in detail in post #104 above, presumably.

 

[sh24]

One additional niche irritation. A 9 car from Plymouth has the last coach locked out of service due to lack of SDO and platform length at Totnes. Of course reservations are still taken for this coach (which is normally First), leading to annoyance and last minute flapping on the platform at Plymouth. Think customer....

 

[louis97]

One additional niche irritation. A 9 car from Plymouth has the last coach locked out of service due to lack of SDO and platform length at Totnes. Of course reservations are still taken for this coach (which is normally First), leading to annoyance and last minute flapping on the platform at Plymouth. Think customer....

If the coach letters have been setup the correct way around, there should not be reservations in that coach. It would be either coach G or L, both don't take reservations.

You could have some unique scenarios where the coach letters are the other way around, however it won't be a regular thing.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Any service that comes up from Penzance and attaches to another unit at Plymouth (1S53 being a prime example) will have coaches A-F at the rear. If the resultant train is 9 coaches long and coach A is at the back then it’ll be locked out Plymouth-Exeter. Don’t get me started on 10 coaches

 

[amahy]

One additional niche irritation. A 9 car from Plymouth has the last coach locked out of service due to lack of SDO and platform length at Totnes. Of course reservations are still taken for this coach (which is normally First), leading to annoyance and last minute flapping on the platform at Plymouth. Think customer....

Any service that comes up from Penzance and attaches to another unit at Plymouth (1S53 being a prime example) will have coaches A-F at the rear. If the resultant train is 9 coaches long and coach A is at the back then it’ll be locked out Plymouth-Exeter. Don’t get me started on 10 coaches

I always find it bizarre that XC run 9 or 10 cars on some services, then only a single 4 on others. Surely it would make more sense to pair the 220s and 4 car 221s together, and have the 5 car 221s running singly?

 

[Zomboid]

I think that's what they usually plan to do, but sometimes end up running 4s and 5s in each others diagrams because of events.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Exactly this. Disruption happens and sets get displaced.

 

[amahy]

Exactly this. Disruption happens and sets get displaced.

Disruption seems to happen alot then, as I tend to see more 9 cars than 8 cars!

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Bear in mind that because most sets are utilised every day, all day then it’s difficult to get units swapped back to original planned diagrams quickly. Especially if units needs attention at depot.

 

[louis97]

Any service that comes up from Penzance and attaches to another unit at Plymouth (1S53 being a prime example) will have coaches A-F at the rear. If the resultant train is 9 coaches long and coach A is at the back then it’ll be locked out Plymouth-Exeter. Don’t get me started on 10 coaches

I did think about that train just after posting, its the train I often travel home from Birmingham on.

I have seen it once since the timetable change where it has attached the other way around, the attaching set was a 5 car. Not sure on the specific reason. This is an edge case anyway, so is not a regular issue at Plymouth with double sets.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Depending on driver availability they have also on occasion put the unit that worked 1V46 out past the station and then attached that to the back of 1S53 once it’s arrived. That way A-F is at the front.

 

[louis97]

Depending on driver availability they have also on occasion put the unit that worked 1V46 out past the station and then attached that to the back of 1S53 once it’s arrived. That way A-F is at the front.

That's what I was referring to in my post. Only noticed it happen the once since the timetable change though.

 

[sh24]

If the coach letters have been setup the correct way around, there should not be reservations in that coach. It would be either coach G or L, both don't take reservations.

You could have some unique scenarios where the coach letters are the other way around, however it won't be a regular thing.

It's happened 3 times out of 3 for me in the last 2 months!

 

[louis97]

It's happened 3 times out of 3 for me in the last 2 months!

Sounds like you've been unlucky then, the root cause in each instance however could be different.

 

[GoneSouth]

Sounds like you've been unlucky then, the root cause in each instance however could be different.

Doesn’t matter what the root cause is to the passenger, 100% failure isn’t a good look and gives a lasting (probably correct) impression that the operator doesn’t know what they’re doing

 

[Llandudno]

1903 Birmingham - Edinburgh crush loaded 5 car set tonight (Sunday) a very unpleasant travelling experience!

Then lost time at New Street and Tamworth as more people tried to shoehorn themselves on board.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I've said before that XC is the invisible franchise - not used by MPs as it doesn't serve London, not championed by regional politicians as it isn't perceived to belong to any particular region. Consequently it lacks any powerful or influential champions.

The solution is to move large numbers of civil servants from London to offices in Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle and force them to travel very frequently by train between these offices. Then the North South CrossCountry Trains services that are currently operated with Voyagers will all get new trains with over 600 seats on each train.

 

[DarloRich]

I was at Durham yesterday afternoon and was planning to get 1V64 Edinburgh > Plymouth to Birmingham. It was on the screen as an 8 car train (yeah - maybe a seat) but the station announcer was very loudly telling people only the front 4 carriages would be in use.

It was so busy I didn't even try to get on! There were at least 4 XC uniformed people at the front door of the train, the engines in both units were working and so was the lighting.

Why would the last 4 cars be locked out of use? it is SO maddening. The front 4 carriages were rammed.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Definitely seems a major oversight from XC, did Virgin/avanti have any of these issues on the North Wales route?

Double voyagers usually had a guard in the rear 5 to from Holyhead to Chester and then they would swop to the front set at Chester to London. It wasn't always the case but more often than not.

 

[dk1]

I was at Durham yesterday afternoon and was planning to get 1V64 Edinburgh > Plymouth to Birmingham. It was on the screen as an 8 car train (yeah - maybe a seat) but the station announcer was very loudly telling people only the front 4 carriages would be in use.

It was so busy I didn't even try to get on! There were at least 4 XC uniformed people at the front door of the train, the engines in both units were working and so was the lighting.

Why would the last 4 cars be locked out of use? it is SO maddening. The front 4 carriages were rammed.

The engines would always be running regardless.

 

[DarloRich]

The engines would always be running regardless.

i meant it hadn't conked out and wasn't being dragged away as a reason for it being out if use - i assume that if the engines don't work then you cant carry passengers on board

 

[Carlisle]

For the reasons outlined in detail in post #104 above, presumably.

Indeed, perhaps DFT are trying to avoid a rather costly scenario where every TOCs caterers & possibly other grades in future insist on a TMs rate when working a set without one .

 

[LowLevel]

Paying them a comparatively piddling amount pro rate is surely cheaper than paying for more train managers?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Paying them a comparatively piddling amount pro rate is surely cheaper than paying for more train managers?

But if your intention is to sufficiently diminish the RSM role so that it can be outsourced to RailGourmet for minimum wage then you won't want the RSMs to have any sort of safety-critical responsibility.

 

[43066]

I was at Durham yesterday afternoon and was planning to get 1V64 Edinburgh > Plymouth to Birmingham. It was on the screen as an 8 car train (yeah - maybe a seat) but the station announcer was very loudly telling people only the front 4 carriages would be in use.

It was so busy I didn't even try to get on! There were at least 4 XC uniformed people at the front door of the train, the engines in both units were working and so was the lighting.

Why would the last 4 cars be locked out of use? it is SO maddening. The front 4 carriages were rammed.

Some sort of safety system isolated, or door problems possibly?

Indeed, perhaps DFT are trying to avoid a rather costly scenario where every TOCs caterers & possibly other grades in future insist on a TMs rate when working a set without one .

And how is that policy working out for XC passengers at the moment?

I’m sure the DfT would rather every train operated with only a driver and no catering or other onboard staff whatsoever.

 

[Carlisle]

But if your intention is to sufficiently diminish the RSM role so that it can be outsourced to RailGourmet for minimum wage then you won't want the RSMs to have any sort of safety-critical responsibility.

I thought the new GBR was supposed to be about insourcing rather than more outsourcing, but who knows ?

 

[DarloRich]

Some sort of safety system isolated, or door problems possibly?

I guess so - I didn't even try and board it was so busy.

Moderator note: Speculative discussion moved to:

Cross Country Voyager overcrowding: What can be done about it?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cross-country-voyagers-rear-set-locked-out-of-use.287454/ New trains have got to be ordered ASAP, and/or XC needs to be cut back to run double sets on all voyager services. The focus should be, in my opinion, the Northeast >...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[dk1]

i meant it hadn't conked out and wasn't being dragged away as a reason for it being out if use - i assume that if the engines don't work then you cant carry passengers on board

It doesn't matter if the odd vehicle has an engine out in passenger service. I think Voyagers can almost keep time on 3/5 although it would be taken out of traffic when suitable.