Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Nym]

Then errrmmm… don’t bid for work you can’t deliver…?

 

[D365]

As the 810s have engines under four of the five vehicles then at least one of the driving cars must have an engine underneath

Both of the driving vehicles have engines. It’s only the ’centre’ trailer that does not have an engine.

 

[Trainman40083]

I can see the lessor withdrawing the first five 222s from EMR for refurbishment for First Group (Lumo). Possible short forms of 222s (are there diagrammed pairs). More extreme maybe bustituting local services and using 170s on a couple of Nottingham - St Pancras circuits.

Whilst I understand the 810s are a new design of AT300 platform compared to the 800 and 802 and 805 there must have been some construction and fitting out synergy.
I guess one of the matters which needed redesign was the driving vehicle platform where i understand all AT300 driving vehicles had the lower saloon floor compared to thise with diesel engines underneath. As the 810s have engines under four of the five vehicles then at least one of the driving cars must have an engine underneath

The Sheffield to London, departing Derby circa 07.05 certainly used to be two sets. Now just one.

 

[ExRes]

More extreme maybe bustituting local services and using 170s on a couple of Nottingham - St Pancras circuits.

Now that would make me laugh even if the actual users of EM services didn't find it funny in the least, I do seem to recall driving pairs of 170s on Nottingham / St Pancras services 20+ years ago, before they were replaced by erm uhm oh yes, 222s

 

[Trainman40083]

Now that would make me laugh even if the actual users of EM services didn't find it funny in the least, I do seem to recall driving pairs of 170s on Nottingham / St Pancras services 20+ years ago, before they were replaced by erm uhm oh yes, 222s

I remember a couple of times when they ran pairs of Class 156s from Kettering to Sheffield.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Now that would make me laugh even if the actual users of EM services didn't find it funny in the least, I do seem to recall driving pairs of 170s on Nottingham / St Pancras services 20+ years ago, before they were replaced by erm uhm oh yes, 222s

Not so much a laugh as a wry smile. Lets remember the ex TPE 170s which DfT thought they could hang onto, but instead watched then transfer to Chiltern, and instead had to spend several million getting DRS to use DBSOs and 37/4s, including rebuilding rotten 37407 and 37424 costing about a million each IRCC.

The DfT have form for egg on their faces through micro management of our railway system.

But you never know, that quartet of 180s may return to the MML after being fettled at Widnes !!!

 

[liamf656]

I can see the lessor withdrawing the first five 222s from EMR for refurbishment for First Group (Lumo). Possible short forms of 222s (are there diagrammed pairs). More extreme maybe bustituting local services and using 170s on a couple of Nottingham - St Pancras circuits.

For reference the 10 car services are (In order of what I believe to be the most likely to be short formed to the least)
1C14 (0630 SHF STP)
1F62 (1732 STP SHF)

1B13 (0649 NOT STP)
1D63 (1735 STP NOT + Return)

1B10 (0611 NOT STP)
1F70 (1902 STP SHF)

1B16 (0712 NOT STP)
1F55 (1602 STP SHF)
1B16/1F55 rarely get short formed and would need a rejig of diagrams if they were to be, giving a fourth unit

There are two more to/from Melton Mowbray that join/separate at Kettering but if push comes to shove those extensions to Melton can be cut to save a fifth unit

Bear in mind there needs to be leeway for maintenance so if six units are departing there will need to be a contingency or there will be cancelled services all day

 

[800001]

Surprised no one has suggested it - ex TPE MK5 to EMR (can dream)

 

[Trainman40083]

The unit I had back from Sheffield this afternoon, 222011 proclaimed it had NO accessible toilets. Engine under coach D kept packing up...Glad to get back on it.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread should be confined to discussing progress on the 810s or news about their issues.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they should start a new thread for example this thread which is about possible stopgap options.

Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-810-for-east-midlands-railway-construction-introduction-updates.195052/page-115#post-7169043 Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)… First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

Training for rank and file drivers is still officially being predicted to begin in September, but that’s obviously subject to the wiring and welding issues being sorted so that enough units can be accepted, and further required testing being completed, which obviously isn’t taking place at the moment.

That certainly points to entry into service next year.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Training for rank and file drivers is still officially being predicted to begin in September, but that’s obviously subject to the wiring and welding issues being sorted so that enough units can be accepted, and further required testing being completed, which obviously isn’t taking place at the moment.

Its quite staggering that defects of this nature have only just come to light although possibly been know about for some time which is why further 810 deliveries have failed to materialise.

 

[TheGuy77]

Does anybody know if EMR will get any compensation for the delays? I think someone on this thread mentioned something about extra units.

 

[QSK19]

Does anybody know if EMR will get any compensation for the delays? I think someone on this thread mentioned something about extra units.

No for multiple reasons, two of which are:
- EMR will be leasing the trains from their owner, Rock Rail. As the lessee, EMR are not losing out financially.
- Rock Rail East Midlands Ltd’s accounts filed on Companies House showed a “liquidated damages” payment from Hitachi amounting to £15.39m - ie compensation is by way of late penalties, not extra units (which itself has been debunked by insiders on RF and in rail media).

 

[800001]

Does anybody know if EMR will get any compensation for the delays? I think someone on this thread mentioned something about extra units.

Been mentioned many times.
No they will not get extra units.
What there will be is financial penalties in contracts.

 

[43066]

Its quite staggering that defects of this nature have only just come to light although possibly been know about for some time which is why further 810 deliveries have failed to materialise.

Indeed. I think the welds were a known problem quite a while ago, as per comments further back on this thread. The 810s had become a regular sight out testing, and evidently the wiring issues were discovered during this process, as they abruptly vanished a few weeks ago. The silence is presumably because it’s not yet known how long it will take to resolve. The affected units apparently need to be fully rewired (again from a knowledgeable source), so clearly it’s a major defect and a significant setback.

Does anyone know the progress of the remaining build? Presumably they can incorporate modifications to the wiring based on experience of fixing the early units.

No for multiple reasons, two of which are:
- EMR will be leasing the trains from their owner, Rock Rail. As the lessee, EMR are not losing out financially.
- Rock Rail East Midlands Ltd’s accounts filed on Companies House showed a “liquidated damages” payment from Hitachi amounting to £15.39m - ie compensation is by way of late penalties, not extra units (which itself has been debunked by insiders on RF and in rail media).

Indeed. And of course the financial penalties arising from the contractual arrangements will mean naught to those affected; namely passengers using the increasingly inadequate 222 fleet, and possibly even needing to squeeze onto 170s to London as the first 222s leave.

 

[QSK19]

Surprised no one has suggested it - ex TPE MK5 to EMR (can dream)

Nah, too young - any cascaded stock that EMR receives has to be at least 15 years old and thoroughly knackered/rotten

 

[The_Train]

Hsts at Scotrail are on lease until 2030 are they not? So 222 can stay with EMR for a while?

I can’t see the DFT allowing the 222s to move to Scotrail if that would leave EMR severely struggling to cover services.

As far as I know there is no agreement for ScotRail to take any 222s yet anyway.
Wasn't the whole point of the 222s moving north supposed to be for 10 years coverage whilst Scotland try and get more lines electrified so they can then order new bi-modes? If the 222s aren't going to be available for another 2 years (more like 3-4 when you factor in training etc), they might as well forget them and just order a new fleet now and stick with the HSTs until 2030! They should have just gone new build when they stuck their tender out to be honest - a debacle like this was always going to happen!

 

[43066]

As far as I know there is no agreement for ScotRail to take any 222s yet anyway.
Wasn't the whole point of the 222s moving north supposed to be for 10 years coverage whilst Scotland try and get more lines electrified so they can then order new bi-modes? If the 222s aren't going to be available for another 2 years (more like 3-4 when you factor in training etc), they might as well forget them and just order a new fleet now and stick with the HSTs until 2030! They should have just gone new build when they stuck their tender out to be honest - a debacle like this was always going to happen!

Lumo will be needing theirs, though. And it’s not clear that the DfT will have any basis to stop that. If five sets go before the 810s begin to roll out that will have a major impact - the 222s are stretched thinly as it is.

 

[Frank43064]

810s due September I have been told

 

[tfw756rider]

810s due September I have been told

Due what in September? Start of entry to service?!

 

[800001]

Due what in September? Start of entry to service?!

Most likely one unit to EMR to start training.

 

[InTheEastMids]

810s due September I have been told

Due what in September? Start of entry to service?!

I'll have a go at the most repeated joke on any new rolling stock thread. Drum roll, please...

September of which year?

Ba-doom tish

 

[jfowkes]

810s due September I have been told

 

[QSK19]

If this actually happens, is this genuine progress or a panicked reaction to the fact that 222s are going to start exiting the fleet and exposure to this is a real threat?

The numerous delays have been discussed to death here and elsewhere, no (apparent) 10-car testing has commenced and we’ve now heard that there are major wiring issues. So, to hear that a unit is being handed over in September seems a bit premature given the introduction issues are not insignificant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2025 ==

I'll have a go at the most repeated joke on any new rolling stock thread. Drum roll, please...

September of which year?

Ba-doom tish

2028?!

 

[Class15]

View attachment 181839

This has made my day. Brilliant!

 

[QSK19]

View attachment 181839

The 810 introduction now has memes based on it… meaning it’s now officially classed as a farce

 

[tfw756rider]

I'll have a go at the most repeated joke on any new rolling stock thread. Drum roll, please...

September of which year?

Ba-doom tish

I was actually thinking that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2025 ==

Most likely one unit to EMR to start training.

Thanks.

 

[sad1e]

Any ideas when the first 222 units are going to leave EMR for either Scotrail or Lumo.

EMR should be praying that they have at least one 810 before the first 222s leave , EMR management must be going crazy surrounding this situation.

 

[Bald Rick]

Any ideas when the first 222 units are going to leave EMR for either Scotrail or Lumo.

EMR should be praying that they have at least one 810 before the first 222s leave , EMR management must be going crazy surrounding this situation.

September to Lumo.