£15bn Improvements around UK

[Thirteen]

Manchester already have a City Visitor Tax of £1 per room per night.

That's voluntary, the Metro Mayors need powers to make it compulsory

 

[Howardh]

Ah makes sense- I had expected £2.5bn to buy a bit more, if I'm honest

I believe there are more new stops than just one + the tram/train development. Would love to see the proposal as a map!

 

[anthony263]

Tram /Trains for Oldham, Rochdale Heywood and Bury?. Does this mean trams going to Heywood Via Castleton and the ELR?.

Looks like stadler could end up getting a follow on order for class 398s.

 

[Grimsby town]

It's not just a couple of tram stops for that. Completely electrifying the bee network was one other part of the plan, which will mean loads of electric buses and supporting infrastructure, for example.

Among other things. The funding is an expansion of the city region sustainable transport settlement (CRSTS). The funding will also be used to continue to expanding the cycle infrastructure network.

Tram /Trains for Oldham, Rochdale Heywood and Bury?. Does this mean trams going to Heywood Via Castleton and the ELR?.

Yes. The last I heard the plan was to run an Oldham to Heywood initially with future expansions to Bury.

 

[The Ham]

Well maybe then London needs to raise its taxes.

London has had a LOT of investment in infrastructure spending since 1945 compared to the rest of the country.

EDIT: I mean yes London has ~60% of the rail ridership but it has also had a lot more than 60% of the investment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2025 ==


That is very true.

The question is, how much money has been spent in total, not just how much has been spent in infrastructure.

A few years ago I worked out that

Based on 2018 figures if SWR had the same per passenger subsidy as TPE then it would have been able to have paid for Crossrail 2 over a 10 year period.

A silly example, but it illustrates the point that just because there's not much infrastructure spending it doesn't mean that there's not a lot of spending happening.

 

[Mikey C]

The Stockport extension would be very convenient for Stockport Man U (and Lancashire cricket) fans, but would be a very slow way of getting into the centre of Manchester.

 

[jfollows]

The Stockport extension would be very convenient for Stockport Man U (and Lancashire cricket) fans, but would be a very slow way of getting into the centre of Manchester.

Like the airport tram, which takes ages, I only went on it once for the hell of it. But in the same way the Stockport tram shouldn’t be thought of as a sensible centre-centre option. Since my first trip I’ve used the airport tram to Sale, which makes more sense.

 

[Zomboid]

The Stockport extension would be very convenient for Stockport Man U (and Lancashire cricket) fans, but would be a very slow way of getting into the centre of Manchester.

It's probably aimed at getting people into Stockport rather than to Manchester

 

[cle]

Other areas of the country need levelling up. And actually its only fair given the massive investments London has seen.

And taxes wouldn’t need to go up much on London to pay for some new tube trains. They aren’t that expensive and there are a lot of Londoners.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2025 ==


They could get more money from council tax for example.

Or charge a levy on all rail commuters outside of the TfL zone? And more for folks outside of the SE region? For being at the teat.

Jokes aside -

is there confirmation yet that the Stockport is the East Didsbury plan? I think that was the most advanced but I also recall a Manchester Airport / radial connection too. It's a long way to town but the connectivity at Cornbrook will be handy as an orbital link (Quays)- as will access from places like Chorlton and the Didsbury-s to Stockport, especially for trains to London, without going into town.

 

[Hamma52]

Like the airport tram, which takes ages, I only went on it once for the hell of it. But in the same way the Stockport tram shouldn’t be thought of as a sensible centre-centre option. Since my first trip I’ve used the airport tram to Sale, which makes more sense.

Absolutely, although given how packed the WCML from Stockport to Piccadilly is, some freeing up of capacity won't hurt.
Though as you say, it's connecting Stockport to South West Manchester and the Airport that should be the main goal for a metrolink extension. Going all the way to St Werburgh's Road to change over to the Navy Line wouldn't warrant using the tram over the 199 or 313 bus. Therefore, are you looking at another extension connecting Didsbury to Wythenshawe/Peel Hall area? Because that's getting expensive.

As is always the case with light rail, it's not about end point to end point, but connectivity in the intermediary areas, but I get the feeling that if any Metrolink in Stockport doesn't connect directly to the airport, the full potential of the tram being in Stockport and south Manchester is not being utilised.

Or charge a levy on all rail commuters outside of the TfL zone? And more for folks outside of the SE region? For being at the teat.

Jokes aside -

is there confirmation yet that the Stockport is the East Didsbury plan? I think that was the most advanced but I also recall a Manchester Airport / radial connection too. It's a long way to town but the connectivity at Cornbrook will be handy as an orbital link (Quays)- as will access from places like Chorlton and the Didsbury-s to Stockport, especially for trains to London, without going into town.

I think this makes the most sense. The only other option would be to the Navy line (see above), and I feel they're missing a trick if there isn't some sort of direct integration to the airport.

Running it along the A6 wouldn't be practical. The road's a carpark already!

The extension to Stockport is definitely not a project that someone's recently come up with in a brainstorming session. It was being spoken of back in 2004 when the East Didsbury line was in planning. The fact that Stockport Interchange was built with it in mind means there's been a lot of thought and planning already.

I'd be intrigued to see how the tram navigates around the centre of Stockport. From East Didsbury to the Mersey, it's a pretty straight forward case of using old lines that are now cycle paths. Yet after that, the M60 and River Mersey are certainly logistical challenges to try and overcome.

I can see maybe 3 scenarios:



The first one, in Blue, would run by the M60, across Junction 1, into the A5145 and down across the roundabout by the Crown Inn into Stockport that way. This route I feel makes a lot of "sense", but would most likely involve the demolition of a few businesses just before J.1. There is no space between the businesses and the M60. It would also have to navigate Junction 1. Whilst this has been done before on the Metrolink (Junction 6, Junction 21, Junction 25), I don't think any of them have as much of a conflict point as this route would do. In addition, the M60 (in general in this part of the world), is very low, and there almost certainly wouldn't be the space to run overhead lines under the present M60 at that bridge by the Crown Inn at the moment.

The second option, in Lilac, would cross the M60 and Mersey simultaneously, before moving onto the A560, turning right onto the A5145, and into Stockport this way instead. This would have less of an impact for the relocation of businesses in the area, and would deal with the Mersey and M60 in one, possible with the construction of an expensive bridge. Another disadvantage is that the roads in this area (A560 in particular), are narrow. Something would have to be done to accommodate both trams and motor vehicles (a lot of lorries around here too) in the limited space that this road has.

The third and final option that I've somewhat put on the map above, is to use at least part of the Northenden Rail line, in Yellow. We've seen the Metrolink's preference for using existing infrastructure/infrastructure sites. This difficulty with this option is primarily due to the fact that is bypasses the centre of Stockport and heads for Hazel Grove. If the Metrolink is intended to come to Hazel Grove one day, then this option may be considered a bit more, but in terms of getting to Stockport Interchange, it's somewhat impractical. As well, it's an existing line already, albeit freight only, and it's in a cutting for a lot of the line.

So this is just my take. It's by no means well thought out. There'll be other options too I'm sure, and I don't have a degree in civil engineering, but I do know Stockport quite well. The town is due the Metrolink, so after years of promise, the fact it's FINALLY looking like it's on its way is welcome news. I'm curious to see how far they take it.

 

[158756]

It's probably aimed at getting people into Stockport rather than to Manchester

Is there really enough demand for travel between Chorlton/Didsbury and Stockport to justify the costs of rail infrastructure, or is this extension mostly about politics, with Stockport Council previously threatening to block funding for the Bee Network if they didn't get a tram?

The reporting on this is quoting people thinking they'd use the tram to get to Manchester, but it'll be so much slower than the train. Depending on how quick the new section is even Stockport to Salford Quays may well still be faster via Piccadilly.

 

[jfollows]

Is there really enough demand for travel between Chorlton/Didsbury and Stockport to justify the costs of rail infrastructure, or is this extension mostly about politics, with Stockport Council previously threatening to block funding for the Bee Network if they didn't get a tram?

The reporting on this is quoting people thinking they'd use the tram to get to Manchester, but it'll be so much slower than the train. Depending on how quick the new section is even Stockport to Salford Quays may well still be faster via Piccadilly.

I think it’s a lot of politics.
I see people saying they want the tram to come to Wilmlow, for goodness sake! I don’t think many of their reasons are logical, as you say.
The only time I used the airport line in full I went to central Sale, and I won’t do it again, it’s quicker via central Manchester. More recently I went to Sale Water Park and walked to my destination on Dane Road and that made more sense.

 

[stuu]

Absolutely, although given how packed the WCML from Stockport to Piccadilly is, some freeing up of capacity won't hurt.
Though as you say, it's connecting Stockport to South West Manchester and the Airport that should be the main goal for a metrolink extension. Going all the way to St Werburgh's Road to change over to the Navy Line wouldn't warrant using the tram over the 199 or 313 bus. Therefore, are you looking at another extension connecting Didsbury to Wythenshawe/Peel Hall area? Because that's getting expensive.

As is always the case with light rail, it's not about end point to end point, but connectivity in the intermediary areas, but I get the feeling that if any Metrolink in Stockport doesn't connect directly to the airport, the full potential of the tram being in Stockport and south Manchester is not being utilised.


I think this makes the most sense. The only other option would be to the Navy line (see above), and I feel they're missing a trick if there isn't some sort of direct integration to the airport.

Running it along the A6 wouldn't be practical. The road's a carpark already!


I'd be intrigued to see how the tram navigates around the centre of Stockport. From East Didsbury to the Mersey, it's a pretty straight forward case of using old lines that are now cycle paths. Yet after that, the M60 and River Mersey are certainly logistical challenges to try and overcome.

I can see maybe 3 scenarios:

View attachment 181374

The first one, in Blue, would run by the M60, across Junction 1, into the A5145 and down across the roundabout by the Crown Inn into Stockport that way. This route I feel makes a lot of "sense", but would most likely involve the demolition of a few businesses just before J.1. There is no space between the businesses and the M60. It would also have to navigate Junction 1. Whilst this has been done before on the Metrolink (Junction 6, Junction 21, Junction 25), I don't think any of them have as much of a conflict point as this route would do. In addition, the M60 (in general in this part of the world), is very low, and there almost certainly wouldn't be the space to run overhead lines under the present M60 at that bridge by the Crown Inn at the moment.

The second option, in Lilac, would cross the M60 and Mersey simultaneously, before moving onto the A560, turning right onto the A5145, and into Stockport this way instead. This would have less of an impact for the relocation of businesses in the area, and would deal with the Mersey and M60 in one, possible with the construction of an expensive bridge. Another disadvantage is that the roads in this area (A560 in particular), are narrow. Something would have to be done to accommodate both trams and motor vehicles (a lot of lorries around here too) in the limited space that this road has.

The third and final option that I've somewhat put on the map above, is to use at least part of the Northenden Rail line, in Yellow. We've seen the Metrolink's preference for using existing infrastructure/infrastructure sites. This difficulty with this option is primarily due to the fact that is bypasses the centre of Stockport and heads for Hazel Grove. If the Metrolink is intended to come to Hazel Grove one day, then this option may be considered a bit more, but in terms of getting to Stockport Interchange, it's somewhat impractical. As well, it's an existing line already, albeit freight only, and it's in a cutting for a lot of the line.

So this is just my take. It's by no means well thought out. There'll be other options too I'm sure, and I don't have a degree in civil engineering, but I do know Stockport quite well. The town is due the Metrolink, so after years of promise, the fact it's FINALLY looking like it's on its way is welcome news. I'm curious to see how far they take it.

The pink route was what was planned 20-odd years ago, before the expansion was cancelled the first time in 2004ish

 

[Zomboid]

Is there really enough demand for travel between Chorlton/Didsbury and Stockport to justify the costs of rail infrastructure, or is this extension mostly about politics, with Stockport Council previously threatening to block funding for the Bee Network if they didn't get a tram?

The reporting on this is quoting people thinking they'd use the tram to get to Manchester, but it'll be so much slower than the train. Depending on how quick the new section is even Stockport to Salford Quays may well still be faster via Piccadilly.

I've no idea, but the existing line to East Didsbury almost gets there, and finishing the job makes sense in a lines on the map and connectivity sense. I assume someone with access to facts has done some analysis and the idea stacks up.

It's not just travel to Stockport of course, it's everywhere else that you can get to from Stockport - London, Sheffield, Birmingham...

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One option being considered for Stockport is to reinstate the Midland Direct bridge over the Mersey and build a curve at Cheadle Heath to connect with the Altrincham line. This would enable tram-trains to reach Edgeley statiion - from there they would descend on new tracks down to the Interchange. The rebuilding of Greek Street bridge has been designed so as not to compromise a potential tunnel on the west side for Metrolink tracks.

Tram-trains could also reach the airport, via the new station at Cheadle and a new curve from the Altrincham line on to Metrolink at Southmoor Road (Baguley).

I think it is all an exciting development - I'm reminded of all the naysayers back in '92 who said Metrolink was a waste of money!

 

[A S Leib]

How do passenger numbers for Wimbledon to East Croydon by tram compare to changing at Clapham Junction? The latter's theoretically quicker, but dependent on how quickly you can change at Clapham, as well as 2-3 times the cost of the tram if not having a Travelcard. The Metrolink will be less time-competitive than that case for most Stockport to Manchester and beyond journeys from the sound of it though.

 

[brad465]

WECA mayor Helen Goodwin has said the money provided here will include looking at mass transit, but can't buy a tram system overnight. She's also hoping to bolster links to Bristol Airport:

Funding will not build Bristol and Bath tram 'overnight', mayor says

It was announced on Wednesday that the West of England would get £750m of transport funding.

www.bbc.co.uk

Trams could make a return to Bristol and Bath with the announcement hundreds of millions of pounds of new transport funding.
The West of England Combined Authority (WECA) is to spend some of a new £750m funding allocation on looking at mass transit - most of which will be spent on improving bus and local rail services.
WECA's award was part of £15.6bn transport funding announced by the government.
But while newly-elector mayor Helen Godwin welcomed the funding, £200m of which would be spent on developing mass transit, she made it clear it would not buy a new tram system "overnight".
The money covers a five-year period from 2027.
The West of England is getting the lowest funding of any city region – partly because its population is smaller than most.
"That money is not going to buy us a tram network overnight, we've got to be clear about that," Ms Godwin said.
"That money can give us a much-improved bus network," she added. "We can also start to move on our suburban rail network."
Ms Godwin was elected Metro Mayor on 1 May, bringing to an end the troubled tenure of Dan Norris.
During his four years in charge WECA was put into special measures after a series of public rows with council leaders.
Among the disagreements was over the possibility of an underground system.
That idea is not now being talked about.
Instead Ms Godwin stresses her wish for good relations with local councils, including North Somerset which is likely to eventually join WECA.

She will work with them on one particular priority – improving links to the airport.

"We have got an airport which is the only one in the country which isn't connected by mass transit of any form," she said. "So it would be remiss for us not to be looking at that."

The new money is not enough to fund that but the hope is that it could pave the way.

 

[MatthewHutton]

A silly example, but it illustrates the point that just because there's not much infrastructure spending it doesn't mean that there's not a lot of spending happening.

But I think there is also a chicken and egg element to this as well.

Doing the Bee network and integrating everything properly is driving up Manchester tram usage (and therefore driving down the day-to-day subsidy).

A faster train service through the Pennines would certainly be less loss-making than today’s services for example.

EDIT: Likely it has changed, but actually trans Pennine Express has a lower subsidy per kilometre now (12.9p) than London Overground (14.3p). And cross country is overall actually pretty good - the 4th lowest at 2.6p. This is as per figure 3 from https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/udsa42ql/rail-industry-finance-uk-statistical-release-202324.pdf

 

[mangad]

Is there really enough demand for travel between Chorlton/Didsbury and Stockport to justify the costs of rail infrastructure, or is this extension mostly about politics, with Stockport Council previously threatening to block funding for the Bee Network if they didn't get a tram?

There's been over two decades of thinking and planning around a Stockport link. I think we can say there's a convincing business case. And it will be a quicker link than the current buses.

But even if there's not, there's lots of experience that shows demand is usually underestimated. If you build it, it usually turns out passengers will come.

The reporting on this is quoting people thinking they'd use the tram to get to Manchester, but it'll be so much slower than the train. Depending on how quick the new section is even Stockport to Salford Quays may well still be faster via Piccadilly.

It will all depend where they come from, but realistically this tram extension is not about getting people to central Manchester.

 

[360xup]

If I was getting a train south, and living near the south manc metroline, would get a tram to stockport and jump on there rather than go into Picc. It has uses for nuances like that. Also there are lots of food / eateries in both stockport and south manc that would be better served by the met passing through. Its all about genuine connectivity between places rather than we should build this cause it will funnel commuters around. Not all the tube lines serve this purpose for example

 

[Kite159]

Absolutely, although given how packed the WCML from Stockport to Piccadilly is, some freeing up of capacity won't hurt.

What trains services would you withdraw to free up capacity if the tram line gets extended from East Didsbury to Stockport?

Even if the tramline gets built I can't see any meaningful change to the service pattern from Stockport station, after-all it's not like there is a Stockport - Manchester service etc

 

[Hamma52]

If I was getting a train south, and living near the south manc metroline, would get a tram to stockport and jump on there rather than go into Picc. It has uses for nuances like that. Also there are lots of food / eateries in both stockport and south manc that would be better served by the met passing through. Its all about genuine connectivity between places rather than we should build this cause it will funnel commuters around. Not all the tube lines serve this purpose for example

This!

I think this is why airport connectivity from Stockport is really important too. Instead of getting the train back into Picc to go South, getting the tram to Stockport to avoid the center of Manchester would be much more convenient, and help ease a little of the congestion around Picc too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2025 ==

What trains services would you withdraw to free up capacity if the tram line gets extended from East Didsbury to Stockport?

Even if the tramline gets built I can't see any meaningful change to the service pattern from Stockport station, after-all it's not like there is a Stockport - Manchester service etc

This is true!

I dunno, I'd probably just keep an eye on ridership figures pre/post tram. But even then it'd hard to correlate one to another.

 

[Zomboid]

What trains services would you withdraw to free up capacity if the tram line gets extended from East Didsbury to Stockport?

Even if the tramline gets built I can't see any meaningful change to the service pattern from Stockport station, after-all it's not like there is a Stockport - Manchester service etc

It might free up some seats between Stockport and Piccadilly as people heading to a section of the tram line will alight/join at Stockport rather than heading into central Manchester. Don't know where that watershed will be, though. And it may well be offset by people using the tram and train for a journey when previously they'd have done something else.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Among other things. The funding is an expansion of the city region sustainable transport settlement (CRSTS). The funding will also be used to continue to expanding the cycle infrastructure network.

Yes. The last I heard the plan was to run an Oldham to Heywood initially with future expansions to Bury.

Brilliant news, Would be great if Middleton was part of this plan too. Thanks for your reply.

 

[cle]

It might free up some seats between Stockport and Piccadilly as people heading to a section of the tram line will alight/join at Stockport rather than heading into central Manchester. Don't know where that watershed will be, though. And it may well be offset by people using the tram and train for a journey when previously they'd have done something else.

I think it just helps to cemend Manchester as a polycentric place - with the affluent suburbs of the south seeing commuting to Media City, but also lots of London journeys - and it gives options which aren't as fully traditional (head into town to catch a train)

of course many rail-head now from the southern stations, but by car/taxi. This would hopefully change some of that, e.g. if you lived in Didsbury Village and were heading to London. No brainer. Avoid town. Avoid traffic/bus... and it's 10 mins less on the Avanti. You'd be on the tram home by the time you're pulling into Piccadilly, and thinking about a very circuitous tram ride, or a headf-ck of a 42 ride. Or a twenty quid cab.

 

[The Mercian]

On the West Mids settlement is the £2.4bn solely for the Airport tram extension from Curzon Street through the new "Sports Qtr" and out to the airport? Or can we expect other projects to be funded from this pot? and will £2.4bn get us all the way to the airport.

 

[Grimsby town]

On the West Mids settlement is the £2.4bn solely for the Airport tram extension from Curzon Street through the new "Sports Qtr" and out to the airport? Or can we expect other projects to be funded from this pot? and will £2.4bn get us all the way to the airport.

It's for a range of projects covering sustainable transport modes including active travel. I think Ben Houchen has even proposed using it to build roads in Teeside. £2.4bn would likely be enough to get all the way to the airport but there's been no mention of the airport as far as I'm aware so this may just fund part of the eastern extension.

 

[The Mercian]

It's for a range of projects covering sustainable transport modes including active travel. I think Ben Houchen has even proposed using it to build roads in Teeside. £2.4bn would likely be enough to get all the way to the airport but there's been no mention of the airport as far as I'm aware so this may just fund part of the eastern extension.

Thanks, seems a lot money to not get to the airport?

 

[Zomboid]

Thanks, seems a lot money to not get to the airport?

It'll probably be spent on things other than the tram

 

[Grimsby town]

It'll probably be spent on things other than the tram

It will definitely be spent on other schemes and modes of transport.

For context, the Brierley Hill extension is estimated to cost £650m for 11km of route. The route to the airport will be around 15km but have more street interaction so will be more expensive per km. So somewhere between £1bn-1.5bn seems about right. I'd imagine the line will be extended gradually to the airport. A first phase via a new Birmingham stadium to Heartlands hospital would make sense to me but nothing has been confirmed yet.