Rules Regarding Luggage Permitted on a Class 158 (Scotrail)

[moffatcalum]

Hello folks, I have a strange question that do believe to be an original one at least.
This happened an hour ago.
Tonight, I was travelling between Burntisland and Kirkcaldy and after the train departed Kinghorn, the guard walked briskly past me without asking for a ticket, he has however, clearly noticed that I was carrying a new car battery (with a carry handle) as luggage stowed under the table at my feet.
I only realised this a few monents later when the guard returned and decided to pleasantly ask me where I was travelling to, I answered a little taken aback that he did not just ask to check my ticket that I had in my hand at the time.
He then went on to explain to me that I was breaking the rules by bringing this battery (with caps over the poles, in the same condition it left the shop) aboard.
Having quickly decided that arguing in any way would make me seem belligerent I apologised for my "error", especially due to the guards pleasant demeanour.
Can anyone clarify TOC policies (if there are indeed any) on this particular issue of transporting batteries as luggage as I am sure this will be breaking news to a great many, even some guards and conductors I guess ‍♂️
Much appreciated

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess it'd be seen as dangerous goods due to the fact they contain sulphuric acid which can easily leak out and would be seen under this Byelaw:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf

2. Potentially dangerous items

(1) Except with written permission from an Operator or an authorised person, no

person shall bring with him or allow to remain on the railway any item which,

in the opinion of an authorised person, may threaten, annoy, soil or damage

any person or any property.

(2) If any person in charge of an item contrary to Byelaw 2(1) is asked by an

authorised person to remove it and fails to do so immediately, it may be

removed by or under the direction of an authorised person.

 

[Ayrshire Roy]

Car batteries are classed as dangerous goods and there are regulations as to how they are transported.
Think of it this way. You have an unrestrained box of corrosive acid.

 

[43066]

I guess it'd be seen as dangerous goods due to the fact they contain sulphuric acid which can easily leak out and would be seen under this Byelaw:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf

And of course the key point there is in the opinion of an authorised person - hence if the guard considers it dangerous then it will be regarded as dangerous for the purposes of the legislation.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Definitely dangerous goods.

The battery should have had a clear yellow triangle warning label on it to indicate dangerously corrosive.

If it didn't , you should probably return it to the seller as it won't meet UK safety standards.

 

[moffatcalum]

I do truly appreciate the reasons for the rule. Shock really was that the guard noticed, said something about it, and sorted it in a well considered way (especially considering he must have been at the end of a late shift)
Not gonna lie, I am a little embarresed now but I would have been super mortified & inconvenienced if I had to leave the train before my intended destination. Feeling Humbled best describes it I believe.
Do not intend on repeating this feat again now I am aware of this bylaw.
Thanks for the replies folks

 

[Watershed]

Taking the battery was potentially a breach of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT), specifically condition 23.6:

Items that are not permitted to be carried on passenger trains:
ITEM
Motorcycles; mopeds; motor scooters
Furniture exceeding these dimensions, 30 x 70 x 90 cm
Firearms (except as shown above)
Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives

Although it's perhaps arguable whether a car battery qualifies as "dangerous goods", if properly packaged and of the leak-proof type.

The NRCoT doesn't explicitly state the penalty for breaching that condition. I think it can be taken as an implied term that you can't travel if you are carrying a prohibited item of luggage, so in theory you could have been denied entry to the station where you started your journey (obviously impractical if unbarriered, particularly if unstaffed), or required to leave the train at the next stop.

I guess it'd be seen as dangerous goods due to the fact they contain sulphuric acid which can easily leak out and would be seen under this Byelaw:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf

Not all car batteries will leak. AGM batteries are common (especially on hybrid vehicles or ones with 'start/stop') and are generally leak-proof.

Worth noting that the Byelaw wording appears to require there to be a specific instruction (e.g. a member of staff opining that an item is dangerous, or telling you not to take a battery onboard) for it to constitute an offence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Inflammable liquids" is quite generic. No whisky or vodka then

 

[endecotp]

I believe you’re not allowed tins of paint. Or maybe that’s Lothian Buses. Are camping gas canisters allowed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe you’re not allowed tins of paint. Or maybe that’s Lothian Buses. Are camping gas canisters allowed?

In practice, because bag inspections do not take place, you can take anything that can't be seen. Camping gas doesn't pose any more risk than any other aerosol (the propellant is usually butane anyway, just in the case of camping gas the canister only contains butane, not also something else e.g. scent) but it's probably not one you want to start raking up as the only answer if you actually ask about it is going to be "no".

SNCF specifically bans it, notably.

Paint is explicitly banned from most bus companies because of the damage it causes if it spills, but again you'll get away with it if it's not visible. On the railway it'd just come under that Byelaw as something that could cause damage to the train.

 

[fgwrich]

"Inflammable liquids" is quite generic. No whisky or vodka then

Don’t worry, ScotRail already has that covered

Still glad I got my whisky glass when they sold them! Shame they didn’t do a matching I7C dram to go with!

 

[MoominAndChips]

I believe you’re not allowed tins of paint. Or maybe that’s Lothian Buses. Are camping gas canisters allowed?

Guard wouldn't let me aboard with a tin of emulsion at WBQ a while back. Was only going to Runcorn East as well!

 

[endecotp]

Guard wouldn't let me aboard with a tin of emulsion at WBQ a while back.

Right, I thought so. Is this because we can’t be expected to tell the difference between water-based emulsion and possibly-flammable solvent-based paints, or do they not want paint because you might spill it and make a mess?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right, I thought so. Is this because we can’t be expected to tell the difference between water-based emulsion and possibly-flammable solvent-based paints, or do they not want paint because you might spill it and make a mess?

That one. If it leaks it'll make a massive, expensive mess.

 

[geoffk]

That one. If it leaks it'll make a massive, expensive mess.

I have heard of bus drivers refusing someone with a tin of paint. Paint will only spill if the lid comes off and that's unlikely, I guess.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

Guard wouldn't let me aboard with a tin of emulsion at WBQ a while back. Was only going to Runcorn East as well!

Warrington B&Q.

 

[FrontSideBus]

If the battery is an AGM type, then there isn't any acid to spill and SLA's only really blowup when you seriously overcharge them.
Not dangerous at all tbh. I can understand on restrictions of Li-Po and Li-Ion cells whose sole ambition in life seems to be catching fire.

 

[andy33gmail]

Don’t worry, ScotRail already has that covered

Still glad I got my whisky glass when they sold them! Shame they didn’t do a matching I7C dram to go with!

Has to be open though for it to be a problem, right? At which point due to the bizarre nature of bye-laws you’d actually be committing a crime rather than just getting booted at the next station

I had to Google this last weekend, as I was still in continental mode enjoying a bottle of wine on my journey back. Fortunately the journey entailed Eurostar and East Anglia so it was legit

 

[roadie]

If the battery is an AGM type, then there isn't any acid to spill and SLA's only really blowup when you seriously overcharge them.
Not dangerous at all tbh. I can understand on restrictions of Li-Po and Li-Ion cells whose sole ambition in life seems to be catching fire.

And they keep promoting e-tickets which require us to bring Li-Ion installed and a spare on board to ensure the device is charge, often with access to onboard charging facilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And they keep promoting e-tickets which require us to bring Li-Ion installed and a spare on board to ensure the device is charge, often with access to onboard charging facilities.

Very small ones that pose little danger.

 

[Watershed]

Very small ones that pose little danger.

Phone batteries have caused some pretty big fires, and of course many people carry power banks which naturally tend to have a much higher capacity. So it's clearly quite an inconsistent approach.

 

[John Webb]

"Inflammable liquids" is quite generic. No whisky or vodka then

Interesting that the term "Inflammable" is still in use. When I started working in fire safety in 1969 there was debate going on as to the use of 'inflammable' against 'flammable' and 'non-inflammable' against 'non-flammable'. Apparently some people took 'inflammable' to mean the same as 'non-flammable' with disastrous consequences!
By around 1980 it had been agreed that the preferred terms were 'flammable' and 'non-flammable' and I thought these had been used in legislation ever since.

 

[endecotp]

Post office: can’t send power banks, can send emulsion paint.
Railway: can take power banks (and charge them!), can’t take emulsion paint.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Post office: can’t send power banks, can send emulsion paint.
Railway: can take power banks (and charge them!), can’t take emulsion paint.

Yes, because the risks - and more importantly, the mitigation against those risks - are different.

 

[Rab Smith]

There could have been an extra charge for it.
(Hastily reaches for coat.....)

 

[duffield]

I have heard of bus drivers refusing someone with a tin of paint. Paint will only spill if the lid comes off and that's unlikely, I guess.

I always make sure any paint is at the bottom of a (very sturdy) bag and covered with other items if I take it on the bus (I don't have a car).
I've seen people turned away for carrying paint openly.

I'd guess a paint spill on the railway would be more expensive and disruptive than on a bus.

 

[eoff]

Pretty hard to comment sensibly without knowing what type of battery it was.

 

[Carntyne]

Pretty hard to comment sensibly without knowing what type of battery it was.

It was a car battery. Which you're not permitted to carry on board.

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting that the term "Inflammable" is still in use. When I started working in fire safety in 1969 there was debate going on as to the use of 'inflammable' against 'flammable' and 'non-inflammable' against 'non-flammable'. Apparently some people took 'inflammable' to mean the same as 'non-flammable' with disastrous consequences!
By around 1980 it had been agreed that the preferred terms were 'flammable' and 'non-flammable' and I thought these had been used in legislation ever since.

I was most amused to see a few years ago CERN putting out a tender for the supply of flammable and inflammable gases.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Very small ones that pose little danger.

Have you seen those videos of "small" 1860 cells in e-cigs going off like fireworks in people's pockets? The same types are used in power banks and all sorts of other devices.