Wind Power and UK Energy Use

[AndrewE]

I would say "very" - it uses industry sources for data and the person who made it is rather experienced in this field

You may also be interested in: https://wastedwind.energy

maybe "Very," but it is not complete. I have a small share in Kirkhill cooperative windfarm - which has a max output of 18.8MW - and it is missing from the map due to "no data."

 

[takno]

There was a piece on Radio 4 this morning about a trial site in Devon for underground pumped storage using water with an additive that makes it much denser. Claimed it would greatly reduce the cost of pumped storage and/or make it viable on much lower hills than previously.

Heavy water you say? Could be interesting

 

[Nottingham59]

Heavy water you say? Could be interesting

It's a suspension of some dense mineral like iron ore in water. Sounds bonkers to me.
There are plenty of sites left where pumped storage hydro will work. And even more if they used the sea as the lower reservoir.

 

[Meerkat]

It's a suspension of some dense mineral like iron ore in water. Sounds bonkers to me.
There are plenty of sites left where pumped storage hydro will work. And even more if they used the sea as the lower reservoir.

Where would these sites be?

 

[Bald Rick]

Where would these sites be?

Most of the realsitic sites are in Scotland, which is handy because that is where much of the excess windpower will be generated at times it is unable to be transmitted down south.

I also agree it is looks challenging. It needs a head of 150 metres plus, which means using old deep mines (of which there are a limited quantity in variable condition), tunnelling, or using open sites with a suitable 150m+ height difference. The site in Devon is a brownfield open site and has a max ouput of 0.5MW and capacity of 1MWh. To put it in context, we’d need 2500 similar sites to generate as much instant power as one pumped storage power station, and 30,000 of them to have as much energy capacity as one pumped storage power station (Coire Glas, Lochaber). No doubt the technology could be scaled up so these numbers would reduce, but it still means a lot of digging and building in and on a lot of big hills (and all the planning issues that go with it) just to hit the same effectiveness as one pumped storage facility.

 

[Meerkat]

Most of the realsitic sites are in Scotland, which is handy because that is where much of the excess windpower will be generated at times it is unable to be transmitted down south.

I also agree it is looks challenging. It needs ahead of 150metres plus, which means using old deep mines (of which there are a limited quantity in variable condition), tunnelling, or using open sites with a suitable 150m+ height difference. The site in Devon is a brownfielc open site and has a max ouput of 0.5MW and capacity of 1MWh. To put it in context, we’d need 2500 similar sites to generate as much instant power as one pumped storage power station, and 30,000 of them to have as much energy capacity as one pumped storage power station (Coire Glas, Lochaber). No doubt the technology could be scaled up so these numbers would reduce, but it still means a lot of digging and building in and on a lot of big hills (and all the planning issues that go with it) just to hit the same effectiveness as one pumped storage facility.

I assumed Nottingham59 was saying there were plenty of sites available for normal pumped storage, and was asking where they would be (whilst gently stroking my chin).

 

[HSTEd]

It's a suspension of some dense mineral like iron ore in water. Sounds bonkers to me.
There are plenty of sites left where pumped storage hydro will work. And even more if they used the sea as the lower reservoir.

I guess you could use a caesium salt solution, that can have a density comparable to many oil drilling muds despite being a simple liquid.

However it has the issue that all the (non radioactive!) caesium in the world comes from a single minew ith a production of a few tonnes per year.

Ofcourse there is one denser liquid available in huge quantities - and thats salt brine, but there are obviously huge ecological issues with handling it in the quantities required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

Most of the realsitic sites are in Scotland, which is handy because that is where much of the excess windpower will be generated at times it is unable to be transmitted down south.

Although obviously the best option is to actually build a suitable transmission system for moving the power down south, before trying to build pumped storage!

I tried to do the calculation, and came to the conclusion that building a 735kV single circuit power line across the Scottish borders (like ones recently constructed in Quebec) would have a payback time measured in months from reduced curtailment.

 

[Bald Rick]

I assumed Nottingham59 was saying there were plenty of sites available for normal pumped storage, and was asking where they would be (whilst gently stroking my chin).

I realised that, hence the first part of my reply (Scotland).

Although obviously the best option is to actually build a suitable transmission system for moving the power down south, before trying to build pumped storage!

Both are needed, as Scotland already generates more power than it can use when it is windy, and there’s a lot more Scottish wind coming online in the near future. Albeit there are quite a few Anglo-Scots transmission projects in hand.

 

[Nottingham59]

I assumed Nottingham59 was saying there were plenty of sites available for normal pumped storage, and was asking where they would be (whilst gently stroking my chin).

Standard PSH already in the pipeline in the UK include Corrie Glas (1.3G/30GWh), Loch Fearna (1.8GW/37GWh), Balliemeanoch (1.5GW/45GWh). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categ...electric_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom

There are a plenty of hydropower reservoirs in Norway and the Alps that could be converted to pumped storage by reversing the turbines and creating a lower reservoir. Total usable PSH capacity in Europe might be 29TWh.
See https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S096014811400706X

And a number of dry valleys in Galway and Donegal which could be dammed, but the only source of water to pump into them would be water from the sea, so they might encounter objections from environmentalists. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ireland

EDIT:
Even better than PSH would be to upgrade the turbines on existing classic hydropower schemes. Around 20% of Europe's electricity comes from hydopower (yesterday it varied between 60 and 90GW: see https://windeurope.org/about-wind/daily-wind/electricity-mix ).

During windy weeks in Europe we could generate a surplus of 60-90GW with wind power in Scotland and Spain and Denmark etc, and retain that water unused in the mountains. The retained water would then be available for generation at twice the usual rate (i.e. 120-180GW) during a week of low winds - delivering around 40% of Europe's electicity demand when the wind farms are idle.

 

[The Ham]

Thank you for sharing this. On another note looking at it, what would it take to actually put some wind farms in the Bristol channel/southeast Irish sea area? This is the frontline for prevailing SW winds so should have huge potential. I know depth is a problem off Cornwall to the south, though hopefully floating wind farm tech will sort this out.

maybe "Very," but it is not complete. I have a small share in Kirkhill cooperative windfarm - which has a max output of 18.8MW - and it is missing from the map due to "no data."

There appears to be no wind farms in Cornwall, when there certainly are, so it maybe that not all are willing to share data.

 

[Bald Rick]

During windy weeks in Europe we could generate a surplus of 60-90GW with wind power in Scotland and Spain and Denmark etc, and retain that water unused in the mountains. The retained water would then be available for generation at twice the usual rate (i.e. 120-180GW) during a week of low winds - delivering around 40% of Europe's electicity demand when the wind farms are idle.

That’s effectively the plan, albeit not at that level of power. Also with Solar. Spain has the same wind caapcity as us (albeit ours is more productive), nearly twice the solar coacity (theirs is much more productive) and 15 x the hydro capacity. With roughly the same demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting situation right now: Demand is as high as it has been for a long time, but principally because we are exporting to Ireland (as usual) but also Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway. That’s quite unusual! It’s cold and still over there, whilst we have a bit of wind so can afford to export.

 

[Nottingham59]

Interesting situation right now: Demand is as high as it has been for a long time, but principally because we are exporting to Ireland (as usual) but also Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway. That’s quite unusual! It’s cold and still over there, whilst we have a bit of wind so can afford to export.

And they have no wind at the moment. The isobars on the surface pressure charts are close together in Ireland and the UK, showing strong winds. Spain, Germany and Denmark have almost none.

Surface Pressure Charts

Surface pressure charts indicating areas of high and low pressure and a guide to interpreting weather data

www.metoffice.gov.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

And they have no wind at the moment. The isobars on the surface pressure charts are close together in Ireland and the UK, showing strong winds. Spain, Germany and Denmark have almost none.

Surface Pressure Charts

Surface pressure charts indicating areas of high and low pressure and a guide to interpreting weather data

www.metoffice.gov.uk

Yes little wind across Denmark, Germany, Holland, but Norway gets most of its electricity from Hydro. Perhaps everyone in Oslo is charging their EV for the half term getaway tomorrow

I wouldn’t say we have strong winds at present. It’s about 12-15kt in the North Sea at present, and less than that across Ireland, hence we are only generating about 8-10GW of wind now, and Ireland is importing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2025 ==


Edit:

Related to this, I’ve just noticed that we have a new interconnector in service as of two weeks ago. The Greenlink interconnector, between (near) Pembroke and Cork, 0.5GW. This means we now have 9.8GW of interconnector capacity, with a further 1.4GW under construction (with Germany).

 

[Bald Rick]

1st March, and 9GW of solar at peak today. When will the instantaneous record (10.75GW) go ?

 

[AlastairFraser]

1st March, and 9GW of solar at peak today. When will the instantaneous record (10.75GW) go ?

Very impressive.

It's also important to note that renewables pretty much consistently produce a considerably higher share than the fossil fuel share on average, and maybe renewables will reach 65-75% of electricity generated in Great Britain this year.

 

[Bryson]

1st March, and 9GW of solar at peak today. When will the instantaneous record (10.75GW) go ?

Solar generation is actually much higher than these grid monitoring sites show. There are a lot of solar panels installed on private homes and businesses.

The power generated by the private installations doesn't get monitored, instead it "appears" in the form of reduced demand because these buildings are not drawing as much from the grid or even partially supplying their neighbours through the local connections.

 

[brad465]

1st March, and 9GW of solar at peak today. When will the instantaneous record (10.75GW) go ?

Presumably soon, I reckon the best time for a record would be a sparkling sunny day in late May/early June with temperatures around 20C maximum.

Solar generation is actually much higher than these grid monitoring sites show. There are a lot of solar panels installed on private homes and businesses.

The power generated by the private installations doesn't get monitored, instead it "appears" in the form of reduced demand because these buildings are not drawing as much from the grid or even partially supplying their neighbours through the local connections.

Another aspect that might skew demand is home solar battery installations. If these are charging in the day, then the excess used in the evening where little/no raw solar power is available, this could be skewing reported demand downwards as well (and/or skewing daytime demand upwards if this demand is reported). That said these installations will not be as common as just plain solar cell installations, so the difference maybe negligible as things stand.

 

[philosopher]

Very impressive.

It's also important to note that renewables pretty much consistently produce a considerably higher share than the fossil fuel share on average, and maybe renewables will reach 65-75% of electricity generated in Great Britain this year.

Solar will almost certainly break the record, last year was a dull year sunshine wise and yet still achieved a new record. So with further growth in solar power and 2025 likely being sunnier than 2024, a new record is almost certain.

For wind I am not very optimistic. January and February were very calm months wind wise, at least in London and we are now going into the less windy part of the year. It will require a very windy Autumn and December and / or a lot of new wind farms to come on line to achieve a new record in wind power.

 

[paul1609]

Solar generation is actually much higher than these grid monitoring sites show. There are a lot of solar panels installed on private homes and businesses.

The power generated by the private installations doesn't get monitored, instead it "appears" in the form of reduced demand because these buildings are not drawing as much from the grid or even partially supplying their neighbours through the local connections.

Isnt it the case that no solar is actually metered centrally and that the figures used in gridwatch etc are estimates produced by Sheffield University who receive considerable donations from the solar industry. There seems to be an common concencus in the power industry that the estimates are over ambitious because the generation should appear as a much bigger reduction in demand during the day than it actually does?

 

[edwin_m]

Isnt it the case that no solar is actually metered centrally and that the figures used in gridwatch etc are estimates produced by Sheffield University who receive considerable donations from the solar industry. There seems to be an common concencus in the power industry that the estimates are over ambitious because the generation should appear as a much bigger reduction in demand during the day than it actually does?

Surely every generator that feeds into the grid must be metered so its contribution can be measured and paid for appropriately? If so it should be easy enough for National Grid to add up all the figures for each type of generation.

 

[Trainbike46]

Surely every generator that feeds into the grid must be metered so its contribution can be measured and paid for appropriately? If so it should be easy enough for National Grid to add up all the figures for each type of generation.

Solar panels on businesses and houses are connected to that building's supply, so the production of those panels shows up as a reduced demand at that property, because it isn't fed into the wider grid. If the production exceeds demand, the extra is fed into the local grid, and this is usually metered. However, that still doesn't mean it will have been included in the stats cited here.

 

[takno]

Isnt it the case that no solar is actually metered centrally and that the figures used in gridwatch etc are estimates produced by Sheffield University who receive considerable donations from the solar industry. There seems to be an common concencus in the power industry that the estimates are over ambitious because the generation should appear as a much bigger reduction in demand during the day than it actually does?

The gridwatch figures do include a reasonable estimate for "invisible" installations, which would otherwise just appear to be reduced demand.

I would say that most people I know who've installed solar in the past 5 years have also installed batteries, and in some cases are operating more or less entirely off-grid in the summer. The impact of EVs and batteries, combined with tariffs which make it worthwhile to move electricity usage to off-peak times, makes it really difficult to draw meaningful conclusions or "common consensus".

It's certainly possible that the figures are slightly on the high side, but Sheffield University is a pretty respectable institution, so there will be a certain level of robustness to the claims. To suggest that they are being deliberately over-egged as a result of industry funding comes across as a bit of a heard-it-on-Facebook conspiracy theory to be honest.

 

[paul1609]

Surely every generator that feeds into the grid must be metered so its contribution can be measured and paid for appropriately? If so it should be easy enough for National Grid to add up all the figures for each type of generation.

I believe that the issue is that the vast majority of solar systems are connected to the DNO distribution grids which only reflect back in to the national grid as a reduction in demand. Whilst they are metered for payments to the DNO there's no centralized solar metering.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Solar will almost certainly break the record, last year was a dull year sunshine wise and yet still achieved a new record. So with further growth in solar power and 2025 likely being sunnier than 2024, a new record is almost certain.

For wind I am not very optimistic. January and February were very calm months wind wise, at least in London and we are now going into the less windy part of the year. It will require a very windy Autumn and December and / or a lot of new wind farms to come on line to achieve a new record in wind power.

I agree with your solar point.
With wind, although I don't think that it was notably windy at the start of 2025 in the South, there was a lot of wind generation in other regions.
With grid storage being built and commissioned over the next few years, and the 1.2GW capacity of Dogger Bank A due to join the network in the second half of 2025, it could be possible that wind power beats last year's record, and hopefully we do reach 65 percent renewables in terms of overall power generated this year at least.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's also important to note that renewables pretty much consistently produce a considerably higher share than the fossil fuel share on average, and maybe renewables will reach 65-75% of electricity generated in Great Britain this year.

No chance! Renewables was 36.66% of generation in 2024. More than fossil fuels (whcih it only overtook in 2023), but only just.

Perhaps you mean “low carbon” which includes Nuclear, biomass, and the French imports that are largely nuclear.

For wind I am not very optimistic. January and February were very calm months wind wise, at least in London and we are now going into the less windy part of the year. It will require a very windy Autumn and December and / or a lot of new wind farms to come on line to achieve a new record in wind power.

There’s only been marginally less wind geenration in Jan / Feb this year compared to last. And we have a number of windfarms that will be fully online in the second half of this year that weren’t last year, including Viking in Shetland, Dogger Bank A, Moray West and Neart na Gaoithe which between them have 3GW of capacity. Add to that Dogger Bank B and Sofia, which are likely to start generating from their first turbines this year, and it should be a record year.

Isnt it the case that no solar is actually metered centrally

Some is, but not all.

 

[AlastairFraser]

No chance! Renewables was 36.66% of generation in 2024. More than fossil fuels (whcih it only overtook in 2023), but only just.

Perhaps you mean “low carbon” which includes Nuclear, biomass, and the French imports that are largely nuclear.

Ah, the NESO said 4 quarters Q4 2023 - Q3 2024. My mistake.
Still an interesting review to read: https://www.neso.energy/news/britai...city generated in,, averaging 51% during 2024.
I do also believe that biomass are considered renewables, but obviously cannot be classified zero carbon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah, the NESO said 4 quarters Q4 2023 - Q3 2024. My mistake.
Still an interesting review to read: https://www.neso.energy/news/britains-electricity-explained-2024-review#:~:text=How was electricity generated in,, averaging 51% during 2024.
I do also believe that biomass are considered renewables, but obviously cannot be classified zero carbon.

That 51% includes biomass (slightly dubious) and the renewables elements of our imports.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Surely every generator that feeds into the grid must be metered so its contribution can be measured and paid for appropriately? If so it should be easy enough for National Grid to add up all the figures for each type of generation.

Every solar generator has metering for payment but unless your registered in the Balancing Mechanism (BM) that data is not being reported in real time to NESO. Generators have to be registered in the BM if there >50MW in England and Wales >30MW in South Scotland or >10MW in North Scotland. Most solar assets are under 50MW as that was the threshold that avoided the more arduous planning requirements. There are also virtual generators who operate multiple sub BM threshold sites that present an aggregated position.

So given most metering is remotely read these days it can't be that difficult to get more accurate real time data on solar generation and as its penetration has increased there has been more of push to get real time data as NESO has to forecast whats its likely to produce to be well prepared for its variability.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That 51% includes biomass (slightly dubious) and the renewables elements of our imports.

I was thinking the Norwegian and Danish interconnectors might make the difference. With Drax's biomass taken off, that probably means the average was around 45% zero carbon renewables last year. So 60 percent isn't inconceivable if the rest of the year is windy.