Scotrail M-tickets withdrawn on certain routes.

[800Travel]

eTickets can be added to your device's wallet for easy access
eTickets can be stored as a PDF
eTickets can be shared out to each individual in your group
eTickets can be printed
eTickets just work

The wallet aspect is my favourite - I was really frustrated when I bought from trainline once and I couldn't add it to my wallet. Must've been an m-ticket as it also disappeared after the day of use (which made claiming delay repay etc. difficult)

 

[WestCoast]

Having moved from Scotrail (Glasgow) land to Northern/EMR land recently it‘s so refreshing to be able use buy and use e-tickets simply and without worrying. I’ve also noticed that the vast majority of passengers seem to have (e)-tickets and the guard just whizzes through. It’s quite a contrast to some parts of Scotrail for sure.

I used to sometimes want to cross town from Queen Street to Charing Cross and to save time, more often than not I’d just buy a ticket on the app from High Street which would always work the barriers anyway.

Slight digress but while I generally like the way Scotrail do things, I can’t help but feel more rigorous enforcement of buy before boarding and maybe in the future contactless also protected by PFs (if they can be done in Scotland) would be a smart move. Every time you get off a service into Glasgow on the weekend it seems like there‘s a mile long queue to buy tickets. I feel like the removal of short distance m-tickets like this is a papering over the cracks exercise to deter fare evaders when really they shouldn’t be inconveniencing legitimate passengers.

 

[kkong]

mTickets invalidate themselves after day 1
mTickets need to be in their native app
mTickets are gen 1 Smart Tickets and are well past their sell by date
There are very few eTickets available in Scotland so unless people have travelled cross border they probably don't know about them

What I don't understand is why so many people on here (especially those who seem to be in the rail industry) are so exercised about why ScotRail continue to use mTickets?

What harm is ScotRail using mTickets causing anyone?

There is a similar level of antagonism to the continued existence of CCST.

I can understand the latter to an extent (the industry wants to track and record ticket usage, for its own benefit).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==

That's not an answer to my question. And mTickets are no more of an answer. You seem to be suggesting that eTickets don't work because some people don't buy tickets, but it doesn't matter what format the tickets are in if they're not buying them.

I didn't suggest that eTickets don't work, you have made that inference.

I don't have any objection to the use of eTickets on the GB rail network or elsewhere.

Nor did I suggest that mTickets were "any more of an answer".

What I did suggest is that the abuse of eTickets and mTickets is much easier on the GB rail network than it is with any of the comparator activities that you mentioned.

That is surely self-evident: when did you last successfully board an aircraft from Heathrow to Singapore with a Heathrow to Manchester ticket?

 

[Haywain]

What I did suggest is that the abuse of eTickets and mTickets is much easier on the GB rail network than it is with any of the comparator activities that you mentioned

But that's applicable to any format of ticket, not just those issued electronically.

 

[Adam Williams]

What harm is ScotRail using mTickets causing anyone?

It's not just ScotRail selling mTickets themselves through their own retail channels, they're attempting to force that choice on other retailers and their customers and deliberately taking away a superior fulfilment method based on a misguided belief that mTickets are somehow "more secure".

 

[Wallsendmag]

Most other retailers have moved on and no longer offer mTickets and with TOCs having Smart Ticketing targets it's a pain.

 

[Buzby]

That is surely self-evident: when did you last successfully board an aircraft from Heathrow to Singapore with a Heathrow to Manchester ticket?

Not really a great example, I had a ticket from Manchester to Glasgow and stepped off the plane at Gatwick. My inattention didn't help - but I could have waved a cigarette coupon for all the attention they paid to it.

 

[styles]

The main issue I've had with mTickets, and why I don't buy them if I can avoid it, is claiming delay repay. Because they expire so quickly and disappear from your device - you have to be on-the-ball claiming delay repay. It's fine if you booked with the same operator who causes your delay, but not if say you bought through a third-party retailer or your favourite TOC app, then need to claim delay repay from a different operator. You'd think a booking confirmation would do, but you get cases where you can't use online forms (like claiming split ticket delay repay), then the human at the other end wants to see a ticket, which you don't have, and it just adds to the faff.

E-tickets are my go-to. Getting a PDF copy of the tickets gives me the choice of printing or not, and means I keep the tickets for delay repay claims.

 

[kkong]

But that's applicable to any format of ticket, not just those issued electronically.

So what is your point? It seems that you simply don't like mTickets (but do like eTickets).

What would your position be if ScotRail changed from mTickets to eTickets and then didn't permit the sale of eTickets for the journeys in question?

Not really a great example, I had a ticket from Manchester to Glasgow and stepped off the plane at Gatwick. My inattention didn't help - but I could have waved a cigarette coupon for all the attention they paid to it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Another example may help: when did you last gain entry to a Rangers v Celtic match with a ticket (whether eTicket or paper) that was issued for a Rangers v St. Mirren match?

With any form of ticket on the GB rail network, a Rangers v St. Mirren ticket would get you through the door.

Most other retailers have moved on and no longer offer mTickets and with TOCs having Smart Ticketing targets it's a pain.

Who is it a pain for? You, as someone who (I think) works in the rail industry?

Also, mTickets surely do count as a "smart" or "digital" ticket for the purposes of such targets (ScotRail do have these targets; whatever targets DfT have set for England/Wales TOCs are not relevant in Scotland).

It's not just ScotRail selling mTickets themselves through their own retail channels, they're attempting to force that choice on other retailers and their customers and deliberately taking away a superior fulfilment method based on a misguided belief that mTickets are somehow "more secure".

eTickets may well be considered a superior fulfilment method, but wouldn't you agree that it's for ScotRail to decide how they wish to retail tickets for flows which they own (rail being a devolved matter)?

 

[Adam Williams]

wouldn't you agree that it's for ScotRail to decide how they wish to retail tickets for flows which they own (rail being a devolved matter)?

Not when it's holding the rest of the industry back from binning off a legacy fulfilment method, no.

I'm not just picking on Scotland here, I have the same views about the TfL National Rail concessions adopting modern ticketing as well.

 

[Hadders]

From my point of view, a ticket that can only be held in an app is an absolute pain.

My phone wallet currently contains tickets for about three months worth a fixtures at various venues, a theatre ticket, a airline boarding pass, numberous train tickets and six hotel reservation confirmations. Everything's in ne convenient place, nice and easy.

If all of these tickets had to be held in separate apps it would be an absolute pain, as well as the various apps cluttering up my phone.

The world's moved on, it seems to me that Scotrail wants to be different for the sake of being different.

 

[kkong]

From my point of view, a ticket that can only be held in an app is an absolute pain.

If all of these tickets had to be held in separate apps it would be an absolute pain, as well as the various apps cluttering up my phone.

The world's moved on, it seems to me that Scotrail wants to be different for the sake of being different.

My phone is full of transport apps for cities all over the world which hold tickets within the app.

Trams and buses in cities all over the UK, Europe and the rest of the world use this method and people seem to get along fine.

Off the top of my head are Stagecoach Bus UK, First Bus UK, Lothian Buses/Edinburgh Trams, Bratislava, Belgrade...

 

[Hadders]

My phone is full of transport apps for cities all over the world which hold tickets within the app.

Trams and buses in cities all over the UK, Europe and the rest of the world use this method and people seem to get along fine.

Off the top of my head are Stagecoach Bus UK, First Bus UK, Lothian Buses/Edinburgh Trams, Bratislava, Belgrade...

I'm not adverse to an app for something I use regularly but as an infrequent traveller on Scotrail it's a right pain having an app for something I rarely use.

Much easier to keep everything in one place from an end user point of view.

 

[Haywain]

So what is your point?

I might well ask you the same question.

 

[kkong]

I might well ask you the same question.

I think you just have.

I simply pointed out the lack of equivalence between GB railway ticketing and the other types of events which were said to nearly always use eTickets.

Self-evidently, the potential for abuse of electronic tickets to travel on the GB railway is greater than for using electronic tickets to board an aircraft or gain entrance to a sporting / cultural event (where incorrect tickets will nearly always be rejected at the point of entry).

You seem to have taken it up from there.

I've expressed no opposition to eTickets per se; I simply observe that electronic ticketing (whether mTickets or eTickets) makes it easier for those who wish to engage in this type of short-journey railway ticket fraud.

It's not really for any us to second guess ScotRail's reasoning for their chosen methods of revenue protection; that is a matter for them, presumably based on information which they possess.

 

[Hadders]

The point is we have a national rail network. To passengers that suggests a degree of consistency when it comes to this sort of thing.

Paper tickets early give that consistency.
E-tickets also give that consistency, if all TOCs complied - we’re not that far off in this respect
M-tickets don’t give that consistency. I’d only be happy with M-tickets as a format if there was just one app in which they could be held as displayed but that isn’t going to happen.

If fraud is an issue with e-tickets then it won’t be unique to Scotland and a more co-ordinated approach should be taken.

My own view of this is that ticket fraud has always happened, but e-tickets highlight it more. As an example, in the past pretty much anyone could get away with entering or exiting at Birmingham New Street by showing something that vaguely resembled an orange CCST. No questions asked for the most part. The loss was huge and would be unquantifiable.

Now with barriers and barcode tickets people buy short distance tickets to get through the barriers. This makes fare evasion more visible but it doesn’t necessarily mean it has increased.

The key point is how you reduce fare evasion, my view is removing digital tickets (whether e or m format) isn’t the answer, it just results in confusion for genuine passengers. We must always remember that things should be run for the vast majority who are honest, not the minority who are dishonest.

Creating a hostile, inconvenient for passengers environment is not the way to proceed. The sort of things Scotrail should be looking at are:

• Making it easy to buy tickets
• A decent fares structure
• Ticket barriers
• Onboard checks
• Penalty Fares policy
• Investigation in the 'back office'
• Prosecution of those who do not co-operate

 

[David M]

The point is we have a national rail network.

Creating a hostile, inconvenient for passengers environment is not the way to proceed. The sort of things Scotrail should be looking at are:

• Making it easy to buy tickets
• A decent fares structure
• Ticket barriers
• Onboard checks
• Penalty Fares policy
• Investigation in the 'back office'
• Prosecution of those who do not co-operate

Re national rail network - actually, we don't. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their/our own rail networks.

Re Scotrail:

• Making it easy to buy tickets - I believe they do - I can use their app and either collect a paper ticket or use a mobile ticket (I prefer the m one for ease). My nearest station, Tweedbank, has 2 ticket machines. For reasons best known to Scotrail, tickets are sold on board without penalty. I can use any retailers app and collect a paper ticket. Some stations still retain ticket offices but I can understand their hours being shortened as staff are often twiddling their thumbs.
• A decent fares structure - Scotrail are, I think, relatively simple - advance for the likes of Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen, anytime singles or returns, off peak singles or returns and super off peak. Staff are very good at advising Edinburgh destination passengers to 'buy to South Gyle if not coming back today'.
• Ticket barriers - main stations have them, not sure why Waverley has platforms that don't but it's not a Scotrail station. Can't really see them being installed at the likes of Stow or Shawfair.
• Onboard checks - Scotrail are generally very good at checking tickets and sell loads on the Tweedbank to Edinburgh route on board as well.
• Penalty Fares policy - does surprise me that I don't know what this is, not sure if they have one or not.
• Investigation in the 'back office' - don't know what you mean.
• Prosecution of those who do not co-operate - this may be a Scots law thing, i don't know

Scotrail have many faults and there are many things that, in an ideal world, I would improve but, in all honestly, I have few complaints and use them regularly.
My current complaint is that the 5.25% Topcashback offer never seems to track and so claims have to be made every time.

 

[Haywain]

Scotrail have many faults and there are many things that, in an ideal world, I would improve but, in all honestly, I have few complaints and use them regularly.

It's good that you're happy with them.

My current complaint is that the 5.25% Topcashback offer never seems to track and so claims have to be made every time.

Maybe if they were to use eTickets you could buy through another retailer where the tracking would be better.

 

[kkong]

Creating a hostile, inconvenient for passengers environment is not the way to proceed. The sort of things Scotrail should be looking at are:

• Making it easy to buy tickets
• A decent fares structure
• Ticket barriers
• Onboard checks
• Penalty Fares policy
• Investigation in the 'back office'
• Prosecution of those who do not co-operate

All of these have their time and place, but...

• Ticket barriers at the likes of Slateford, South Gyle are never going to happen due to the nature of the station environments.
• Onboard checks do take place, but there is a limit to how many tickets you can check on some of these journeys which only take a few minutes.
• There already is a decent fare structure for these short (sub-)urban journeys.
• It's not particularly difficult to buy tickets (you can buy on board if there are no facilities at your origin station, or buy an mTicket for the vast majority of flows where it is enabled).
• Prosecution isn't practically possible in Scotland
• A penalty fares policy, while possible, would likely run into similar legal constraints as prosecution.

 

[BlueLeanie]

My understanding is that they periodically take GPS locations along your journey and you also need the location at the end of the journey. Faking your location would be against the terms and conditions of the ticket.

Can you clarify exactly which condition of M-Ticket explicitly forbids the use of a GPS location management tool?

They are often used by vulnerable people, in a toxic relationship, to hide their location. Eg visiting GP or abortion clinic.

In the meantime, yesterday, on a Chiltern Clubman unit (broadly similar to a ScotRail 170), my GPS had me bouncing all over the place.

I spent most of the journey between the M25 and High Wycombe in West Ruislip, then found myself bouncing between Piddington and Lacey Green until we got to Longwick when it started behaving itself.

 

[MrJeeves]

Can you clarify exactly which condition of M-Ticket explicitly forbids the use of a GPS location management tool?

This part of the thread was discussing the Tap & Pay app which calculates your journey with GPS, not about mTickets.

 

[Hadders]

Re national rail network - actually, we don't. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their/our own rail networks.

Scotrail is part of the National Rail network. As I understand it when GBR comes into being GBR will work with the devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales to improve consistency across the national rail network. It seems to me that ticket formats are an ideal thing to make consistent.

Making it easy to buy tickets - I believe they do - I can use their app and either collect a paper ticket or use a mobile ticket (I prefer the m one for ease). My nearest station, Tweedbank, has 2 ticket machines. For reasons best known to Scotrail, tickets are sold on board without penalty. I can use any retailers app and collect a paper ticket. Some stations still retain ticket offices but I can understand their hours being shortened as staff are often twiddling their thumbs.

But Scotrail are withdrawing the option to buy m-tickets for some short distance journeys. That isn't making ticket purchasing easier. As for buying a ticket online and collecting it at a station it's mentioned upthread that some of the stations where you cannot obtain m-tickets have no TVM. That definitely isn't making ticket purchasing easy.

A decent fares structure - Scotrail are, I think, relatively simple - advance for the likes of Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen, anytime singles or returns, off peak singles or returns and super off peak. Staff are very good at advising Edinburgh destination passengers to 'buy to South Gyle if not coming back today'.

Agreed.

Ticket barriers - main stations have them, not sure why Waverley has platforms that don't but it's not a Scotrail station. Can't really see them being installed at the likes of Stow or Shawfair.

Clearly ticket barriers aren't appropriate everywhere but they do play their part as part of an overall revenue protection strategy.

Onboard checks - Scotrail are generally very good at checking tickets and sell loads on the Tweedbank to Edinburgh route on board as well.

Agreed, Scotrail is probably the best TOC I've seen with onboard ticket checks. If people are buying short distance tickets to doughnut (which Scotrail are saying is why they're withdrawing m-tickets from certain routes) then these ticket checks should identify the issue.

Penalty Fares policy - does surprise me that I don't know what this is, not sure if they have one or not.

Scotrail don't have a Penalty Fares scheme. I know the legal framework is different in Scotland but I'm surprised some attempt hasn't been made to introduce a scheme at some point.

Investigation in the 'back office' - don't know what you mean.

Take a look in the Disputes & Prosecutions section for cases involving Greater Anglia or WMT. Increasingly ticket purchasing data and ticket scan data is being reconciled to look for anomalies.

Prosecution of those who do not co-operate - this may be a Scots law thing, i don't know

I'm not a legal expert but I'd be surprised if there isn't some way in which a fare evader can be prosecuted. Otherwise why would anyone ever buy a ticket?

 

[BlueLeanie]

This part of the thread was discussing the Tap & Pay app which calculates your journey with GPS, not about mTickets.

Then the second part is still relevant. On my journey yesterday GPS had me up to 10 miles away from where I was, and on occasion a few miles from the nearest line.

 

[MrJeeves]

Then the second part is still relevant. On my journey yesterday GPS had me up to 10 miles away from where I was, and on occasion a few miles from the nearest line.

Indeed, and such errors would be recorded as inaccurate readings since GPS data gives you an accuracy estimate alongside the coordinate info.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I'm not a legal expert but I'd be surprised if there isn't some way in which a fare evader can be prosecuted. Otherwise why would anyone ever buy a ticket?

There is.

ScotRail simply have to make their case to the Procurator fiscal. Essentially evidencing that they have taken all other reasonable steps and a case would be in the public interest.

 

[kkong]

Then the second part is still relevant. On my journey yesterday GPS had me up to 10 miles away from where I was, and on occasion a few miles from the nearest line.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/digital-train-tickets/tap-pay

What must I have enabled on my phone for travelling?
You are required to have location settings enabled to accurately start and end your journeys.

Based on comments on this forum from people who have used the system (I have not), the app seems to provide a list of stations for you to select from (not clear if you can override and manually select if the station you're at/near isn't shown for whatever reason).

It isn't clear that your location is tracked during your journey.

While there's nothing in the terms to prohibit you spoofing your location, deliberately selecting an incorrect start or end station would be no different to deliberately purchasing an incorrect ticket in any other format.

 

[N1]

I'm not a legal expert but I'd be surprised if there isn't some way in which a fare evader can be prosecuted. Otherwise why would anyone ever buy a ticket?

See a little extract from Scotrail news update in December 2024.

ScotRail clamps down on ticket fraud

In cases where fraud is identified, ScotRail calculates the total unpaid fare owed, which can amount to thousands of pounds. The train operator can, if required, seek civil recovery, which may affect the offender’s credit rating, or work with British Transport Police to pursue criminal prosecution in severe cases.

Private prosecutions are just incredibly rare in Scotland. Possible by convoluted means. This is the reason the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service undertook prosecutions on behalf of the Post Office in Scotland.

Scotrail don't have a Penalty Fares scheme. I know the legal framework is different in Scotland but I'm surprised some attempt hasn't been made to introduce a scheme at some point.

You would be surprised at the number of Scotrail stations that do not have ticket machines. Not just ones in far-flung Highlands, but also in Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[kkong]

Private prosecutions are just incredibly rare in Scotland. Possible by convoluted means. This is the reason the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service undertook prosecutions on behalf of the Post Office in Scotland.

And the Post Office has now had its "investigating agency" status removed by the COPFS as a result of its well-publicised failures in the Horizon scandal.

It's a high bar to get the COPFS interested in prosecuting fare evasion and other railway ticketing matters; in practical terms, there are likely to be very, very few such cases taken on.

Is anyone aware of any such prosecution in Scotland?

I am aware there have been a small number of civil recovery actions which ScotRail have publicised in the past.

 

[Hadders]

See a little extract from Scotrail news update in December 2024.

The report goes on to say that in the past year Scotrail recouped £25,000 from people who had been caught travelling through targeted interventions.

That seems a paltry sum to me - compare and contrast to Chiltern where I seem to remember reading that £1.3 million was recovered in the last year. Either fare evasion isn't as bad in Scotland or Scotrail could take some learning from Chiltern, WMT, Greater Anglia, SWR etc.

 

[kkong]

The report goes on to say that in the past year Scotrail recouped £25,000 from people who had been caught travelling through targeted interventions.

That seems a paltry sum to me - compare and contrast to Chiltern where I seem to remember reading that £1.3 million was recovered in the last year. Either fare evasion isn't as bad in Scotland or Scotrail could take some learning from Chiltern, WMT, Greater Anglia, SWR etc.

Chiltern's £1,165,617 recovered revenue breakdown:

8,064 cases reported for investigation on the Chiltern network in 2024. Some cases involved customers not paying for their full journey, adults buying child tickets and railcard misuse. Between £12,000 - £15,000 each was recovered from three individuals who had systematically avoided paying the correct rail fare over a substantial period of time.

In addition, 2,156 penalty fares were issued throughout 2024 and 149 went to prosecution. A total of £114,330 was recovered via penalty fares, taking the total of lost revenue recovered by Chiltern Railways in 2024 to £1,165,617.

https://press.chilternrailways.co.u...on-of-lost-revenue-in-warning-to-fare-evaders

Clearly prosecutions and penalty fares aren't going to work for ScotRail, so they will have to recover what they can through other methods of revenue protection, including civil recovery.


As a side note, I was at High Street station on Tuesday evening and there were at least half a dozen ScotRail staff on the gateline doing ticket checks.

This is an easy location to cover (it only has one, small entrance) and it is well-used as an alternative to Queen Street and by people heading to/from Bellgrove / Duke Street stations for matches at Celtic Park.

It does have ticket barriers, but of course they can't prevent short-ticketing.