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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Yew

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Isn't there relatively credible evidence that Pakistan has nuclear weapons?

I would go into the question of what exactly is meant by "Islamist", but in my experience it is more of a poorly-defined caricature, as opposed to some sort of clear and real ideology - like a McCarthyite "reds under the bed" scare story.
 
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Tetchytyke

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I get a bit tired of people playing the anti-semitism card while completely ignoring anti-Islamic rubbish like this.
Likewise. Although “anti-semitism” sadly means “anyone who criticises Israel”. The children’s author Michael Rosen, who is both Jewish and anti-Netanyahu, faced a lot of abuse from the right of the Labour Party. Nothing was done.

The Labour MP and Director of “We Believe in Israel”, Luke Akehurst (who is not Jewish) said about left-wing Jews:

”[they] abandoned very much of their Jewish identity” and saw Judaism as “a purely cultural thing around a bowl of chicken soup”.


Despite repeating the classic “good Jew/bad Jew” anti-Semitic trope he’s still on the Labour benches. Apparently Starmer isn’t bothered about all types of anti-semitism.

Anyway, moving on.

Labour’s advertising video about the deportation flights seems to have upset pretty much everyone. The left hate it because it is disrespectful and cruel, the right hate it because it isn’t disrespectful and cruel enough.

I wish Starmer and his advisers would get it into their thick skulls that trying to ape Reform isn’t going to make Reform go away. All that behaving like a Reform tribute act does is make people realise that they’d rather have the real deal. They’re not going to beat Farage by wearing his clothes. The Tories still haven’t worked that out either.

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I would go into the question of what exactly is meant by "Islamist", but in my experience it is more of a poorly-defined caricature
It’s a dog whistle. Nothing more, nothing less.

“Just asking questions”.
 

nr758123

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I’m more interested how these WhatsApp chats ended up with the Daily Mail. Apparently Labour HQ knew about them a while ago but they’ve only been leaked now.

Andrew Gwynne is from the left of the party. We know Starmer’s chief of staff Morgan McSweeney was the one who leaked all the stuff about Sue Gray. And McSweeney was the one who leaked everything about Louise Haigh. There’s been a book out this week detailing all about how McSweeney has been leaking about Starmer, describing him as “thinking he’s a train driver but sitting on the DLR”.

I can’t help but think McSweeney I’d behind this too.
From what has been reported, a Labour regional official was told about the contents of this whatsapp group a while ago. That doesn't mean it would have been passed on to national HQ.

It's more likely to be continuing fallout from recent events at Tameside Council where a bad external report on childrens services led to the downfall of first the Chief Executive then the political leadership. The councillor who is reported as having informed Labour regional HQ is the deposed former council leader.

This looks to me like scores being settled at a local level, not some Macchiavellian plot by Morgan McSweeney.
 

Broucek

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Boris Johnson said no more ******** lockdowns – let the bodies pile high in their thousands
I'm not a fan but that sounds like a person at the end of their tether dealing with an impossible decision. Not the same thing as wishing a specific person dead IN WRITING
 

takno

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I'm not a fan but that sounds like a person at the end of their tether dealing with an impossible decision. Not the same thing as wishing a specific person dead IN WRITING
I think you're making rather too much of this this IN WRITING thing. It was a (as far as I can tell) private WhatsApp group, where people would have been expressing exasperation and frustration in a conversational way with people they thought of as allies and friends. It's a common failing of internet platforms that they lull people into thinking this way, while actually recording the entire conversation for all time, and making it easy for the group to expand to a far larger audience than the people involved realise.

This sounds to me like somebody expressing some objectionable but not especially uncommon views on things, combined with common spoken colloquialisms and dark humour. It's been weaponised into something more sinister by local ill-wishers in the party, and then gleefully spread by media with an axe to grind.

I think it's entirely appropriate sack people as ministers for some of the expressed opinions, and to think significantly less of the people involved. However, some of the suggestions that public death threats were made or that the communications should be actionable just because the private conversation was in writing and got leaked is a bit problematic.
 

SteveP29

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When the Tories were said to be thinking about withdrawing the Winter Fuel Allowance, Labour said that this would lead to 4000 extra deaths of the elderly over the winter. So presumably Labour are happy for 4000 deaths this winter.

@Howardh got in there before me, I was going to say the same thing.
The Tories and labour positions on this are not comparable.

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The Labour MP and Director of “We Believe in Israel”, Luke Akehurst (who is not Jewish) said about left-wing Jews:

He's the new Labour MP for my home town, taking over from the retiring Kevan Jones.

Akehurst is, to put it mildly, a beetroot looking pr*ck, parachuted into a safe Labour seat with no knowledge of the area, he went campaigning in Longdean Park and North Lodge, you could have only a Labour candidate on the paper in that area and they'd cut both their arms off out of spite so they couldn't possibly vote, anybody in the CLP could have told him that and he'd still have ignored them.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Not the same thing as wishing a specific person dead IN WRITING
It was in a WhatsApp chat which- by the very nature of it- is a colloquial chat.

He's been rightly sacked for saying it, it's not a very nice thing to say. But I don't think anyone can seriously say it was a "death threat" or even an actual wish that she'd die.

Harsh - IRC he has some kind of skin disease!
Blood disease I think. He was really ill with it a few years ago.

I don't disagree with the rest of @SteveP29 analysis though!
 

DarloRich

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I don't disagree with the rest of @SteveP29 analysis though!
no problem with that - but we shouldn't having a go at a chap for being ill. We aren't Tories ;)

EDIT - is he not from Oxford? I am sure he was a work colleagues local councillor.
 
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Tetchytyke

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EDIT - is he not from Oxford?
Yeah, parachuted into a safe seat on the back of his "anyone but Corbyn" policy position. Despite his rampant anti-semitism against anyone who dares to both be Jewish and left wing.

IIRC his missus is a councillor in Oxford so presumably he still lives down there rather than living in Chester.
 

Richard Scott

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no problem with that - but we shouldn't having a go at a chap for being ill. We aren't Tories ;)
That's being very stereotypical and actually quite offensive (with or without the wink emoji), not all people who would consider themselves Tories would act like this.
 

styles

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I'm amazed MPs in particular continue to send such offensive comments by text.

I love dark humour and even I don't send such jokes by text.

If it's a joke, it's open to being twisted when exposed.

If it's serious then you can't be that out of touch surely that you think homophobia will go down well in the UK.

I can understand councillors being this daft, but MPs are surely given comprehensive guidance on this sort of thing by their parties, no? And they're rightly or wrongly successful at politics to be elected as an MP, so you'd think they'd have the political experience to know when to keep schtum.
 

Broucek

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I'm amazed MPs in particular continue to send such offensive comments by text.

I love dark humour and even I don't send such jokes by text.

If it's a joke, it's open to being twisted when exposed.

If it's serious then you can't be that out of touch surely that you think homophobia will go down well in the UK.

I can understand councillors being this daft, but MPs are surely given comprehensive guidance on this sort of thing by their parties, no? And they're rightly or wrongly successful at politics to be elected as an MP, so you'd think they'd have the political experience to know when to keep schtum.
This. MPs are not ordinary people. They should understand the risks of putting things in writing

I sometime act, in a small way, as a spokesman for my employer and I am therefore VERY careful about what someone could find out about me
 

SteveP29

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IIRC his missus is a councillor in Oxford so presumably he still lives down there rather than living in Chester.

That would not surprise me in the slightest.

While we're on about the Right Honourable member for North Durham and on a railway theme, when Giles Radice stepped down and Jones was elected, Jones moved his constituency office from the 1st floor of Chester le Street railway station to Segiston (Sacriston for non locals)
Chester le Street Labour Club was on the whole of that floor, so three people lost their jobs and the pool team had to disband (3 of them moved into our team and are still there to this day, as am I even though I'm now in Scotland, I manage to be there once a season) and a Labour Club has never reopened.
Jones wasn't that popular in Chester and I suspect Akehurst will be even less popular and wouldn't be surprised if an Independent or god forbid a Reform candidate took the seat at the next General Election.
 

FinsburyPark

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If you are happy with Labours performance related to the cost of living crisis/economy

What did they do that you are happy with.

I ask out of genuine curiosity as from my post in the Farage thread, I think they have vastly underperformed
 

Harpo

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If you are happy with Labours performance related to the cost of living crisis/economy

What did they do that you are happy with.

I ask out of genuine curiosity as from my post in the Farage thread, I think they have vastly underperformed
On the economy, Labour has at least started a process of matching income and expenditure instead of shoulder shrugging as all basic services shrivel and die in what was plainly a broken Britain under the Tories.

It would have been better to have increased income tax to plug the undeniable gap, but Labour had naively promised not to do so.

I suspect that the employer NI increase will prove inflationary and anti-growth where employers seek to neutralise it.

So for me, fiscally correct, stategically poor. But the Tory rich/richer and poor/poorer cycle was worse.
 

GusB

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There's no magic governmental wand that can be waved to sort issues out instantly. We're still less than a year since Labour came to power and, while I have my own criticisms of the current administration, we could at least give them a bit of time to bed in.

When we'd had a decade plus of Tory maladministration it's ridiculous to expect a government of any colour to sort it out overnight.
 

The Ham

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There's no magic governmental wand that can be waved to sort issues out instantly. We're still less than a year since Labour came to power and, while I have my own criticisms of the current administration, we could at least give them a bit of time to bed in.

When we'd had a decade plus of Tory maladministration it's ridiculous to expect a government of any colour to sort it out overnight.

Indeed, I also think that there's been a lot of negativity from the press and focus on big business and the impact on them.

The reality is that 61% of employees in the private sector are employed by companies where the headcount is under 250 people.

Even if you go to micro business (fewer than 10 people) they employ 31% of employees in the private sector.

Due to the way NI is taxed a 2% rise doesn't equal a 2% staff costs, due to the personal allowance, that people of retirement age don't pay it and that on high enough wages pay no additional amount when they see pay increases.

Also whilst the "income" from the NI change is due to be a big number, compared to the total costs of employing staff it's not all that significant.
 

edwin_m

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"A Different Bias" on YouTube, admittedly a Labour supporter, has pointed out that NHS waiting lists are falling (unusual in winter) and that energy prices have fallen enough over the past year that even pensioners who lose the winter fuel allowance will still be better off.
 

Broucek

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Also whilst the "income" from the NI change is due to be a big number, compared to the total costs of employing staff it's not all that significant.

Well, that's not what HR Directors are saying: larger employers have reduced hiring and cut their salary budgets...

Combined with the minimum wage and the change to the NIC threshold, the impact was pretty big. I take your point about smaller businesses (often ignored by politicians on all sides) but for my Church (where we have a lot of part-timers on lowish salaries) the impact was material
 

takno

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Well, that's not what HR Directors are saying: larger employers have reduced hiring and cut their salary budgets...

Combined with the minimum wage and the change to the NIC threshold, the impact was pretty big. I take your point about smaller businesses (often ignored by politicians on all sides) but for my Church (where we have a lot of part-timers on lowish salaries) the impact was material
You don't get to raise significant amounts of tax without the difference being material to someone. There isn't, to borrow a rather overused phrase, a magic money tree.

I fthe people complaining are the HR directors of large companies then we're fine. They are well-trained in squeezing whatever they can out of government, and are generally utterly shameless when issuing demands and hand-wringing threats, but they are often barely even at the table when it comes to actual decisions on corporate strategy and headcount
 

Yew

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Well, that's not what HR Directors are saying: larger employers have reduced hiring and cut their salary budgets...

Combined with the minimum wage and the change to the NIC threshold, the impact was pretty big. I take your point about smaller businesses (often ignored by politicians on all sides) but for my Church (where we have a lot of part-timers on lowish salaries) the impact was material
Is that specifically do to NI changes though, or is it due to general international fiscal uncertainty?
 

Magdalia

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If you are happy with Labours performance related to the cost of living crisis/economy

What did they do that you are happy with.

I ask out of genuine curiosity as from my post in the Farage thread, I think they have vastly underperformed
I did quite a lot of economics as an undergraduate, and worked with economists for much of my career.

Most of what this government has done I'm happy with. There are a few things I'd have done differently, but not much.

There's no magic governmental wand that can be waved to sort issues out instantly. We're still less than a year since Labour came to power and, while I have my own criticisms of the current administration, we could at least give them a bit of time to bed in.

When we'd had a decade plus of Tory maladministration it's ridiculous to expect a government of any colour to sort it out overnight.
I would not use those words, but the new government did have to start with a very large fiscal adjustment to stabilise the public finances. That was going to have a short term hit on the economy however it was done.

It would have been better to have increased income tax to plug the undeniable gap, but Labour had naively promised not to do so.
Don't kid yourself that increasing income tax would have had a significantly different effect. It hits consumers expenditure, and effects many of the same businesses, just in a different way.

I think that the employers national insurance contributions increase was the right way to go, though I might quibble on some of the details. One of the main reasons that the UK has a poor economic growth record is a dysfunctional labour market where too many businesses are reliant on using lots of cheap low productivity labour. That was ok in times of high unemployment, but now that we have a tight labour market it is economically bonkers, and one of the main results is lots of inward migration to meet the demand.

All good governments put high taxes on scarce resources to encourage the market to use them in the most effective way. Right now one of the most scarce resources in the UK is working people. Economically, now is the right time to tax employers more heavily on their use of labour. To be frank the businesses that profit from using lots of low wage labour are now getting a long overdue kick up the posterior. Of course the businesses affected are going to complain, because they are being challenged to do things differently and better. But one of the ways of getting back to economic growth is to get people out of low wage low productivity jobs and into high wage high productivity jobs. That isn't going to happen if the government continues to incentivise employers to horde cheap labour.

I suspect that the employer NI increase will prove inflationary and anti-growth where employers seek to neutralise it.

Combined with the minimum wage and the change to the NIC threshold, the impact was pretty big.
I am the sort of person that listens to budget speeches, and reads some of the supporting documentation on the HM Treasury website.

The thing that struck me at the time of the budget was that the Treasury was underestimating the inflationary impact of the National Insurance increase in combination with the minimum wage increase. I have worked close enough to the budget setting process to have some knowledge of how it works: in the no blame culture I'd say that was the fault of the Treasury economists not the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
 

edwin_m

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In a situation where there is a shortage of labour, and increasing immigration to solve it is politically unacceptable, then it makes sense to increase taxes to encourage industry to automate more instead. This also addresses the UK's longstanding low productivity.
 

Broucek

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Well of course they [HR Directors] aren't going to say that [budget damaged jobs and pay rirs], are they
I should have been clearer. They weren't saying it performatively to the media or politicians, they were saying it to each other when comparing notes at a Reward event I was speaking at

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The thing that struck me at the time of the budget was that the Treasury was underestimating the inflationary impact of the National Insurance increase in combination with the minimum wage increase. I have worked close enough to the budget setting process to have some knowledge of how it works: in the no blame culture I'd say that was the fault of the Treasury economists not the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
That's an important point both specifically and generally. The previous administration was hopeless in lots of policy areas and some of that is no doubt due to the capability of ministers. But I do worry that the problem goes deeper, right into the mechanisms of government. For example I fear that a hypothetical 2019-24 Labour Government led by a centrist would have still have presided over a complete mess of HS2
 
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SargeNpton

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Really? You cant recall all of the nonsense we have with Johnson and Truss & Sunak? There was loads but off the top of my head:

  • Pincher the Pincher
  • Wragg and his honeytrap sexting scam
  • Driving to Barnard Castle to test my eyesight
  • Owen Patterson & Randox
  • Partygate - i couldn't attend my uncles funeral but he and his top tory chums could have a party.
  • Telling lies to the queen around prorogation
  • Tractor porn!
  • Benton (?) and his lobbying
  • Patel was sacked twice for dodgyness!
I am not trying to play this event down but these are canny bad like!
Re the last: as was this country's new ambassador to the USA (alongside his accepting of hospitality from both a Russian oligarch and Jeffrey Epstein).
 

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