Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[OneTrackMinded]

One positive thing about the 701s is that they seem to keep time better on the Windsor line than the 450s. The latter usually struggle.

Faster doors and better acceleration make a big difference

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why can't the guard just manage to get from one set of doors to the other?
Northern guards manage it on the 195s / 331s which have the same thing with pannels being at different ends.

If Northern can manage it with a packed short form 2 car 195, SWR can surely manage it with a 10 car.

 

[Bikeman78]

Except if there's Rugby at Twickenham or Royal Ascot.

I think you're forgetting Longcross too that has a short platform

Did you read what I wrote? Are you suggesting that no one gets off a down train at Bracknell or Wokingham? Seems unlikely. I did ask what was the first station up from Ascot with a short platform. I doubt anyone would notice if a train skipped Longcross. I am amazed that SWR thinks it is worth stopping there twice an hour. It used to be peak time only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Feb 2025 ==

Why can't the guard just manage to get from one set of doors to the other?
Northern guards manage it on the 195s / 331s which have the same thing with pannels being at different ends.

If Northern can manage it with a packed short form 2 car 195, SWR can surely manage it with a 10 car.

Other examples include class 231 and 756. They have to be dispatched from passengers doors. The rear cab is not an option. Those trains are definitely crushed loaded after a Rugby match in Cardiff.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Other examples include class 231 and 756. They have to be dispatched from passengers doors. The rear cab is not an option. Those trains are definitely crushed loaded after a Rugby match in Cardiff.

Loads of trains can only be dispatched from passengers doors, but the 195s/331s are similar to the 701s in that (apparently) the guard pannels for different sides of the train are at different sets of doors within the same carriage, I don't think that's the case for the TfW FLIRTs?

Source:

The guard panels are indeed spaced diagonally opposite rather than directly opposite each other, with the passenger communication (passcom) alarm taking up the right hand space on the other diagonally opposite doors. I'd imagine they've all been built the same?

 

[I_am_Nobody]

The latter usually struggle.

From what I am told and have seen, they struggle everywhere.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From what I am told and have seen, they struggle everywhere.

450s are generally highly reliable trains. They were of course not intended for inner-suburban duties.

 

[DavidRail]

I think you’ll find that DODC/DOO isn’t possible at the moment, otherwise they would be out there working that day right now. But they aren’t. So they won’t. Not without some changes which takes time and money.
So, next best thing: if they aren’t running without a Guard, they aren’t running at all.

I can say that honestly, not many stations will be skipped, and even on very bad trains the crowds onboard will thin out eventually. Though there is a lot to consider even on top of the train being accommodated on the platform, including but not limited to platform train interface sighting, availability of CCTV for dispatch and/or platform staff, etc. While a member of staff remains legally responsible for a task, they will (in the professional sense) want to do it safely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Feb 2025 ==


No, the issue has NOT been blown out of proportion, there just hasn’t been a massive crowd due to events at Twickenham and/or Ascot to cause an issue.

There's a full house at Twickenham on Saturday, and the match doesn't finish until 18:30(ish) so it will be dark by then.
Due to the shortage of staff / stock, Twickenham extras are now at the expense of services elsewhere on the network.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Except if there's Rugby at Twickenham or Royal Ascot.

I think you're forgetting Longcross too that has a short platform

The chances of a train from Twickenham or Ascot still being full and standing after Wokingham to the point where there is literally no carriage the guard can dispatch from is incredibly unlikely.

As mentioned skipping Longcross is not to big an issue. must be the least used station on the whole suburban side of SWR anyway.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

From what I am told and have seen, they struggle everywhere.

450s are generally highly reliable trains. They were of course not intended for inner-suburban duties.

They are being heavily overworked at the moment to cover during this fleet shortage. Heavily. So much so that they're under higher leasing costs, which will return to normal once they are back to a normal level of operations

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They are being heavily overworked at the moment to cover during this fleet shortage. Heavily. So much so that they're under higher leasing costs, which will return to normal once they are back to a normal level of operations

Not to the point where they're "struggling everywhere;" the bulk of their operations are very much still Alton, Basingstoke, Portsmouth (both routes), Reading and also Southampton locals, and they're not struggling on those at all.

My assumption is that the OP perhaps mixed up the words for former and latter, and was actually referring to 701s?

 

[Class15]

I reckon 450s would probably lose time on suburban services because of longer dwell times at each station?

 

[43096]

Not to the point where they're "struggling everywhere;" the bulk of their operations are very much still Alton, Basingstoke, Portsmouth (both routes), Reading and also Southampton locals, and they're not struggling on those at all.

Yes they do. 450s have always struggled to meet the sectional running times on the Reading line, even after SWR's padding being added into the timetable.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I reckon 450s would probably lose time on suburban services because of longer dwell times at each station?

They have very slow doors, to open and close, due to the unique mechanism they use. It's especially slow during the winter

 

[JonathanH]

Is it due to the sheer number of station platforms the back cab does not fit on?

Even where it does fit, can a guard at Clapham Junction or Vauxhall stood by the back cab see the front doors of a 10 coach train? Is there any plan to put extra platform monitors in place at the ends of the platform to allow guards to see the whole train like the ones they installed at the middle of the platform to suit the 455 operation?

 

[I_am_Nobody]

My assumption is that the OP perhaps mixed up the words for former and latter, and was actually referring to 701s?

If you mean me, then nope! I fully meant the 450s. I don’t have experience of them on the longer distance, only the Metro work; and as you mentioned… they are SO not fit for metro duties.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Even where it does fit, can a guard at Clapham Junction or Vauxhall stood by the back cab see the front doors of a 10 coach train? Is there any plan to put extra platform monitors in place at the ends of the platform to allow guards to see the whole train like the ones they installed at the middle of the platform to suit the 455 operation?

I would assume monitors would need to be fitted as the platforms are curved and not always staffed with dispatchers, but i am not familiar with the Suburban side of SWR to know for sure. They would certainly be needed on the Windsor side at Vauxhall. It shouldn’t be too much of an issue however knowing SWR they will find a way to make it stupidly difficult.

 

[WrongRoad]

I know, the point I’m making is that there are plenty of examples of trains with no middle cab having to stop at stations with short platforms. Meaning the guard has no choice but to dispatch from a passenger door. Whats the difference here?

Because there’s no Guards Operating Panel at every door within the carriage, and the problems that will create on very busy trains. The guard will have difficulty reaching a GOP within the carriage.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Because there’s no Guards Operating Panel at every door within the carriage, and the problems that will create on very busy trains. The guard will have difficulty reaching a GOP within the carriage.

I know, how on earth do Northern staff been doing it for 6 years on the 195s and 331s!

SWR guards wouldn't even have to move from one side to the other that much, for example on the Reading line: ("outside" referrs to not island platforms, "inside" refers to island platforms)
Reading - Either side
Earley - Outside
Winnersh Triangle - Outside
Winnerish - Outside
Wokingham - Outside
Brackell - Outside
Martins Heron - Outside
Ascot - Inside on P2 (P1 both sides?)
Sunningdale - Outside
Longcross - Outside
Virginia Water - Outside
Egham - Outside
Staines - Outside
Feltham - Outside
Twickenham - Inside (mostly)
Richmond - Outside
Clapham Junction - Either
Waterloo - Either
(I used the stops that the 2C68 2009 Reading to London Waterloo stops at, and considered both directions)

A guard having to cross the train 7 times at most over an hour and a half feels like quite little, the smallest time gap is 3 minutes, which is surely more than enough to move 15 metres (that's 0.08 metres per second).
Surely that's possible for someone to do, even on a busy train.

 

[MasterPhillips]

A guard having to cross the train 7 times at most over an hour and a half feels like quite little, the smallest time gap is 3 minutes, which is surely more than enough to move 15 metres (that's 0.08 metres per second).
Surely that's possible for someone to do, even on a busy train.

Exactly. I can’t speak for the suburban side of SWR but for the Windsor side this isn’t a big issue. Except the Hounslow loop where there are a few short platforms where trains being full and standing is somewhat likely (in comparison to being full and standing after Staines toward Windsor or after Wokingham toward Reading.)

 

[waterboo]

And again, Guards do not have to release the doors on SWR 701. So in theory they can always egress from one door and walk to a suitable despatch position without delaying door release by moving internally.

 

[43096]

I know, how on earth do Northern staff been doing it for 6 years on the 195s and 331s!

SWR guards wouldn't even have to move from one side to the other that much, for example on the Reading line: ("outside" referrs to not island platforms, "inside" refers to island platforms)
Reading - Either side
Earley - Outside
Winnersh Triangle - Outside
Winnerish - Outside
Wokingham - Outside
Brackell - Outside
Martins Heron - Outside
Ascot - Inside on P2 (P1 both sides?)
Sunningdale - Outside
Longcross - Outside
Virginia Water - Outside
Egham - Outside
Staines - Outside
Feltham - Outside
Twickenham - Inside (mostly)
Richmond - Outside
Clapham Junction - Either
Waterloo - Either
(I used the stops that the 2C68 2009 Reading to London Waterloo stops at, and considered both directions)

A guard having to cross the train 7 times at most over an hour and a half feels like quite little, the smallest time gap is 3 minutes, which is surely more than enough to move 15 metres (that's 0.08 metres per second).
Surely that's possible for someone to do, even on a busy train.

Ascot P1 is outside only. The inside option was fenced off some time ago.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I doubt anything will change here until SWR is transferred to directly operated railways and a new leadership team is put in place who can reset the programme and the relationship with the unions.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Because there’s no Guards Operating Panel at every door within the carriage, and the problems that will create on very busy trains. The guard will have difficulty reaching a GOP within the carriage.

Having a GOP at each door has nothing do with what I was saying. If a train is full and standing as you suggest the guard will be in the cab regardless so that is irrelevant.

The issue being raised is that at stations with short platforms there may be nowhere for the guard to dispatch from as the cab will be off the platform. I am simply saying this situation already exists at other stations and TOCs and has not prevented new trains/services being introduced.

 

[Towers]

Having a GOP at each door has nothing do with what I was saying. If a train is full and standing as you suggest the guard will be in the cab regardless so that is irrelevant.

The issue being raised is that at stations with short platforms there may be nowhere for the guard to dispatch from as the cab will be off the platform. I am simply saying this situation already exists at other stations and TOCs and has not prevented new trains/services being introduced.

How many other trains are there which are guard operated, of fixed, lengthy formation without centre cabs, and routinely operating crush loaded services? There can’t be that many. Plenty of other TOCs run trains whereby guard door operation is from within saloon or vestibule areas, but generally these are shorter units in multiple (so with centre cabs available for refuge, even if not for door operation). There can’t be that many examples which fit the same brief here, so the 701 situation is fairly unusual.

 

[markle]

deleted

 

[Peter Sarf]

If we're going to go down the route of capital spend on station equipment, I'd far rather it was on lighting upgrades so that we can just go to DCO and end this all once and for all.

I am thinking (probably already gone over it and showing my ignorance) but would it make sense to have a member of platform staff seeing trains off at the few problem stations with short platforms. This would not need to be very late at night or early in the morning. So the guard can watch from the rear cab or a vestibule for what the platform staff member is indicating. This would only need to be at problem stations and in the event a member of platform staff was not available then the train would have to skip that station ONLY if the guard had been forced to take refuge in the rear cab at busy times.

Can the driver be left in control at stations that are not an issue ?.

Can a member of platform staff indicate to the driver that it is safe for the train to leave ?.
The reason I ask is that possibly the number of staff required for problem platforms is less than the number of guards required.

It would then be a case of replacing platform staff at individual stations once each station has been modified to make DOO possible.

 

[Theburritoz]

Are there still software issues or is it just the slow (or non existent) staff training and dispatch issues preventing these trains getting into service?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Are there still software issues or is it just the slow (or non existent) staff training and dispatch issues preventing these trains getting into service?

Driver training has come to a complete halt since the start of the new year due to some union dispute with the wording of a new shorter training agreement

 

[Craig1122]

I doubt anyone would notice if a train skipped Longcross. I am amazed that SWR thinks it is worth stopping there twice an hour. It used to be peak time only.

Usage has increased substantially and it's now busier than Wraysbury & Sunnymeads (also short platforms, also half hourly) with more housing development to come, and that's despite it bizarrely not having a proper evening service.

The running times since the 2004 timetable included allowances for almost all trains to stop there. Those that don't stop in the evening have exactly the same running time from Sunningdale to Virginia Water as those that do.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I am thinking (probably already gone over it and showing my ignorance) but would it make sense to have a member of platform staff seeing trains off at the few problem stations with short platforms. This would not need to be very late at night or early in the morning. So the guard can watch from the rear cab or a vestibule for what the platform staff member is indicating. This would only need to be at problem stations and in the event a member of platform staff was not available then the train would have to skip that station ONLY if the guard had been forced to take refuge in the rear cab at busy times.

In principle, a reasonable way forward I would have thought....but....who knows in this day and age!

The running times since the 2004 timetable included allowances for almost all trains to stop there. Those that don't stop in the evening have exactly the same running time from Sunningdale to Virginia Water as those that do.

Back in 2004 the Longcross plan was in very early stages, so whilst (IIRC) a number of peak trains were the main focus for calling, it made sense for an allowance for the rest to be built in to the plan, as a) it was unknown how things would pan out in the future, potential passenger wise numbers which were dependent on the associated planned developments in the local area at the time, and b) it would maintain standard clock face timings at other stations, irrespective of if a stop was made at Longcross or not.