Overspeeding near Manor Park, 24 September 2024 (RAIB report)

[Class15]

Yes. Known as the Down Avoider.

Thank you dk1!

 

[dk1]

Thank you dk1!

Most welcome mate.

 

[800001]

Fair enough, if that what you’ve been told, although that just seems absolutely ridiculous (and personally whenever I have someone from NR in the cab it wouldn’t occur to me to ask for a ticket!)! I suppose I should know better than to be surprised by anything in this industry .

Route learning cab passes given by TOCs to drivers don’t need to be accompanied by tickets, or at least I’ve never heard of such a requirement.

I’ve organised plenty of cab passes for NWR staff to ride in the cabs of the TOC I worked for, no ‘ticket’ required.
Email chain stating reason for the cab pass/ride, linking in with the driver management team to make them aware there would be someone riding in cab.

 

[LowLevel]

It is in fact true that NR staff undertaking any duties other than those deemed as immediately operational (IE for example a MOM cab riding a section) are meant to have tickets and it does say as such on my TOC's policies.

However it doesn't say who will check said tickets because the driver certainly isn't going to and neither is the guard.

 

[dk1]

It is in fact true that NR staff undertaking any duties other than those deemed as immediately operational (IE for example a MOM cab riding a section) are meant to have tickets and it does say as such on my TOC's policies.

However it doesn't say who will check said tickets because the driver certainly isn't going to and neither is the guard.

It strikes me that the world has gone mad (or at least in this country). Anybody on official business is welcome in my cab and I struggle to remember the colour of cab passes let alone check a stupid ticket.

 

[43066]

I’ve organised plenty of cab passes for NWR staff to ride in the cabs of the TOC I worked for, no ‘ticket’ required.
Email chain stating reason for the cab pass/ride, linking in with the driver management team to make them aware there would be someone riding in cab.

That seems a sensible “belt and braces” way to do it.

It is in fact true that NR staff undertaking any duties other than those deemed as immediately operational (IE for example a MOM cab riding a section) are meant to have tickets and it does say as such on my TOC's policies.

However it doesn't say who will check said tickets because the driver certainly isn't going to and neither is the guard.

Thanks, every day is a school day! I do hope no NR staff are put off by what, as you say, seems a theoretical requirement - it’s an incredibly useful experience.

It strikes me that the world has gone mad (or at least in this country). Anybody on official business is welcome in my cab and I struggle to remember the colour of cab passes let alone check a stupid ticket.

Same here. The reason I went to the ROC I was able to visit was because of a signaller I’d had in the cab and he was good enough to invite me to his workplace in return.

 

[PG]

All this Cab pass/ticketry nonsense makes me think, with apologies to the Beatles, that a Cab pass alone is a Ticket to Ride

video of The Beatles, Ticket to Ride track.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The RAIB write-up is a little unclear on whether signal L329 is approach controlled if route is set to Down Passenger Avoiding line. Presumably not although wording that 'the signal cleared' leaves room for doubt.

More generally, one might consider once again looking at fatigue issues here. The report implies that the same driver was booked to take the train from Abbey Wood - T5 - Shenfield, presumably with c. 10-15 mins to change ends at T5, on a diagram that began at 0433, ie. 3.5 hours before the incident but with no obvious break. Are the EL diagrams really this long?

But even more generally, we need to face up to the implications of running a railway that in reality is operated as hybrid between two approaches, ie "the driver must know all of the routes and speed restrictions, and it is their professional duty to adhere to them at all times" and "the driver must adhere to the speeds advised by ETCS or speed boards and therefore does not in practice have to memorise and adhere to all routes/speeds" because the system will, for safety, override them (including by 'Morpeth' TPWS magnets') in some places.

On this line, we switch between various approaches (and also between two technologies to achieve ETCS ie 'BR-ATP' and CBTC (can't remember how the Heathrow Branch is controlled)). Sure, that's the skill required of the job but does it really need to be this complicated from a driver's perspective? Surely it would be 'reasonably practicable' to reduce the number of driving approaches/systems by at least one, ie. all routes to have Morpeth TPWS magnets.

Alternatively, if L329 is approach controlled, then on-board limitations on power draw perhaps now need to be considered?

 

[LCC106]

I’ve had a couple of signallers with me in the past year, encouraged by their managers. Interesting to see them pick up on things like not realising how long sections are until they’ve seen for themselves. Also a good two way conversation opportunity from my viewpoint too.

 

[dk1]

Same here. The reason I went to the ROC I was able to visit was because of a signaller I’d had in the cab and he was good enough to invite me to his workplace in return.

I’ve always had a good relationship with signallers. Maybe that’s because I once was one Always good to see it from each others point of view too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Regularly get NR guys & girls upfront examining infrastructure. Most are friendly and chatty and informative.

 

[357]

Any NR guys or girls with a cab pass are more than welcome to drop me a message to arrange a day out.

I took a trainee signaller out twice recently and even though not on his patch he took away loads from it, as did I.

I won't be checking anyone's ticket either, just the cab pass!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

Regarding the incident in the report, I would expect the relevant signal to have a left feather, making it quite apparent you are turning off, rather than a bland 2-character code for a turnoff that many drivers on that route have never taken. I wonder when the driver was last told what "DA" there means; it's not particularly intuitive, is it?

To anyone who signs the route it is absolutely clear what it means. Ilford has a flyover for the Electric lines and the main goes under them. There is an up and down avoider line that can be used to switch between the main and E lines.

The main issue with what you've written though is that for any driver, if you've got a signal you don't understand, you stop. You can't just disregard the DE because you don't understand it.

I sign hundreds of miles of route and keep maps for all of it in my bag and other notes for them that I can quickly reference. I'd either stop and check this or give the box a call if I didn't know where I was going.

What's more interesting to me, is this is the second incident like this I'm aware of on Crossrail.

A few years ago a train took the crossover from Main to E line at Harold Wood with a ridiculous overspeed.

I don't know if it was reported to RAIB but the driver was one of those featured on the TV show, who like this incident didn't report it and it was passengers who raised it.

She said the feather wasn't lit and when they downloaded the footage it was. They also asked why she didn't stop and report the feather wasn't lit... I believe she lost her job, but I'm not sure there was ever a report into it.

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s worth getting out into a few cabs if you can - I spent a day in a ROC early last year and it was incredibly useful.

Yes indeed! As a Controller signalbox visits and cab rides were incredibly valuable in understanding more of the railway. Visitors to Control were always welcome too (unless perhaps it was a Red weather day....)

I've always understood that not all PSRs have warning boards and only those that feature a reduction of more than a third of line speed have an AWS magnet associated with the warning board although I'm happy to be corrected.

Otherwise known as Morpeth boards, that location being an example of where the reduction in speed requires additional measures.

 

[Harpo]

Several decades ago I was issued with a cab pass purely so that I could use work travel to chat very informally with drivers about our route, its business and a major re-signalling scheme, almost a personal briefing/Q&A.

Highlights included a driver who was proud to have been photographed with Chris Green but had never seen the photos - I tracked them down and took him a couple 24 hours later, to his delight.

Operationally, I can still hear the voice of a certain MOM - “There’s a power failure - Pass the next six at danger and obey the rest”.

Lots has changed!

 

[Horizon22]

More generally, one might consider once again looking at fatigue issues here. The report implies that the same driver was booked to take the train from Abbey Wood - T5 - Shenfield, presumably with c. 10-15 mins to change ends at T5, on a diagram that began at 0433, ie. 3.5 hours before the incident but with no obvious break. Are the EL diagrams really this long?

Yes they can be, but it’s the continuous driving time that matters. Although they booked on at 0433, the first train from Plumstead doesn’t depart until past 0500. You can have 4 hours of continuous driving before a short break is needed, 4.5 hrs for full PNB but those are of course limits and most are diagrammed in before that point. This driver would have been due a break at Shenfield.

 

[racyrich]

Someone upthread mentioned how 'mundane' shuttling up and down the same line day in, day out could cause loss of concentration. Very true. But this trip was far from mundane. This was a down train routed onto the up main on leaving Stratford and then stopping on a fenced off platform at Maryland before then joining the down main, so still off normal route. Surely you'd be sitting up and taking notice at this stage.

 

[greatkingrat]

The issue here wasn't fatigue or loss of concentration though. It seems the driver simply didn't know the route well enough.

 

[Harpo]

It seems the driver simply didn't know the route well enough.

Despite having had the rare luxury of a signaller briefing them about the signalled route that the train was going to take.

 

[bahnause]

I’ve always had a good relationship with signallers. Maybe that’s because I once was one Always good to see it from each others point of view too.

Every few years, our mandatory yearly training courses for drivers take place at an operations centre. This is an opportunity to exchange ideas with the signallers working there and to ask and answer questions. These are generally the best training days, even if the focus is not always on imparting ‘hard’ knowledge as is usually the case.

 

[dk1]

Every few years, our mandatory yearly training courses for drivers take place at an operations centre. This is an opportunity to exchange ideas with the signallers working there and to ask and answer questions. These are generally the best training days, even if the focus is not always on imparting ‘hard’ knowledge as is usually the case.

I think ours only get that during the initial training. I certainly haven’t been taken to any signal box since 1998 as part of training although during engineering blocks we pop into some for a cuppa and a catch up.

 

[357]

I think ours only get that during the initial training. I certainly haven’t been taken to any signal box since 1998 as part of training although during engineering blocks we pop into some for a cuppa and a catch up.

I've never been into a box/roc/control apart from by my own initiative

 

[bahnause]

I think ours only get that during the initial training. I certainly haven’t been taken to any signal box since 1998 as part of training although during engineering blocks we pop into some for a cuppa and a catch up.

We don't really have many signal boxes left. It is all centralised with very limited and secured access. There are however guided tours available for the public. They show you how the Rail Control System works on the training platform and you can have a look into the command room from a viewing platform behind a window.

 

[dk1]

We don't really have many signal boxes left. It is all centralised with very limited and secured access. There are however guided tours available for the public. They show you how the Rail Control System works on the training platform and you can have a look into the command room from a viewing platform behind a window.

View attachment 173641

Didn’t know they did that. Got friends who work in the nearest ROC so could always wangle a visit. Trouble is when you work on the railway there’s no incentive in these things unless you’re getting paid for it

 

[43066]

Yes they can be, but it’s the continuous driving time that matters. Although they booked on at 0433, the first train from Plumstead doesn’t depart until past 0500. You can have 4 hours of continuous driving before a short break is needed, 4.5 hrs for full PNB but those are of course limits and most are diagrammed in before that point. This driver would have been due a break at Shenfield.

Thing is with shift patterns such as this (alternating with weeks of lates) fatigue is always going to be a challenge. Things are improving but there’s still more to do.

Every few years, our mandatory yearly training courses for drivers take place at an operations centre. This is an opportunity to exchange ideas with the signallers working there and to ask and answer questions. These are generally the best training days, even if the focus is not always on imparting ‘hard’ knowledge as is usually the case.

This sounds like an excellent approach. Of course the system where you are is better funded and altogether more “joined up” than what we have in the UK.

I think ours only get that during the initial training. I certainly haven’t been taken to any signal box since 1998 as part of training although during engineering blocks we pop into some for a cuppa and a catch up.

Same at the TOC I trained at (we visited London Bridge PSB, now long gone!). I found it absolutely fascinating, but that was because I was a something of a train geek before joining the industry, so understood what I was looking at.

On my ROC visit the signaller I mentioned above spoke about how useless those early visits are in his opinion, as people have very little concept of what they’re being shown. The example he gave was where someone asks “what do all those red lights mean”, it’s hard to have a meaningful conversation while also operating a live grade 9 signalling workstation! It would be much better to arrange these visits for qualified drivers where they have at least some knowledge.

 

[Horizon22]

Thing is with shift patterns as this (alternating with weeks of lates) fatigue is always going to be a challenge. Things are improving but there’s still more to do.

Oh of course. It's never going to be avoided but has to just be managed as best possible. I guess the point is "never assume" and if unfamiliar in something, don't be afraid to double check.

On a note I think trainee drivers need to have visits to signalling centres / ROCs to meet signallers / controllers embedded in their programme. Some do, but those I am aware of have done it really earlier in their training before they've even got onto traction so it's a bit wasted at that phase. As with everything, it's about finding suitable time within a rostered environment to do it.

 

[43066]

On a note I think trainee drivers need to have visits to signalling centres / ROCs to meet signallers / controllers embedded in their programme. Some do, but those I am aware of have done it really earlier in their training before they've even got onto traction so it's a bit wasted at that phase.

Exactly.

It’s a great idea in principle, but needs to be done at a point where people have the baseline knowledge to get something out of it. This industry being what it is people are often more interested in an easy day/getting off work early than actually learning anything - but that’s another issue I guess .

 

[Bikeman78]

Someone upthread mentioned how 'mundane' shuttling up and down the same line day in, day out could cause loss of concentration. Very true. But this trip was far from mundane. This was a down train routed onto the up main on leaving Stratford and then stopping on a fenced off platform at Maryland before then joining the down main, so still off normal route. Surely you'd be sitting up and taking notice at this stage.

I went on a pair of class 315s that did something similar. It was dark and the driver took it very cautiously. I think she was a trainee because there were two people in the cab.

 

[dk1]

Same at the TOC I trained at (we visited London Bridge PSB, now long gone!). I found it absolutely fascinating, but that was because I was a something of a train geek before joining the industry, so understood what I was looking at.

On my ROC visit the signaller I mentioned above spoke about how useless those early visits are in his opinion, as people have very little concept of what they’re being shown. The example he gave was where someone asks “what do all those red lights mean”, it’s hard to have a meaningful conversation while also operating a live grade 9 signalling workstation! It would be much better to arrange these visits for qualified drivers where they have at least some knowledge.

That’s a very good point. I used to help some on my course as they really struggled with signalling especially Absolute Block which was my bread & butter a few years previously.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Had many cab rides and a number of train crew (and other grades) in the various boxes I’ve worked over the years. I echo the rest of the thread that they were very welcome and insightful, and universally agreed to be so. I think it’s important for all grades to get a good view, we had a group of platform staff come up once and I learned a lot about how our work can benefit theirs in ways I didn’t really expect

It would be much better to arrange these visits for qualified drivers where they have at least some knowledge.

In an ideal world there’d be (at least) two, once at the start and then once around pass out. Sort of “basic” and “detailed” views. I remember going on my first set of cab rides not long after signalling school and I didn’t take as much from them as the latter ones either

 

[Deepgreen]

The warning board as it was served no purpose, as it was; 1) illegible owing to its filthy condition, 2) positioned amazingly badly behind trunking, and, 3) lacking a directional arrow. A very poor piece of infrastructure management. If the trunking was installed after the sign, it should have been moved then. The old silhouette-style signs at least remained legible even if filthy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

If an operational incident had occured, control would inform an On-Call manager. The On-Call driver manager would speak to the driver (probably on arrival at Shenfield) and then report back about whether the driver needed to be relieved / continue duty etc.

That is then down to what the expert (the on-call driver manager) deems suitable, not control. It may be that the driver was unaware of what they had actually done and therefore that is what was reported back. If I recall when the initial notification came out of an RAIB investigation it was some time after the incident - we're talking weeks - because I don't think anyone was able to connect the dots until perhaps a train download had been completed and report to RAIB.

The Down Avoider is generally only used disruption and occasionally during late night (after 2300) two track closures. This driver had a particularly odd routing as it served Maryland P3.

There is an argument that it is these less-frequently used routes that require even better-maintained/placed signs so as to assist drivers who are less familiar with that routeing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

We don't really have many signal boxes left. It is all centralised with very limited and secured access. There are however guided tours available for the public. They show you how the Rail Control System works on the training platform and you can have a look into the command room from a viewing platform behind a window.

View attachment 173641

Where are the levers...?

 

[bahnause]

Where are the levers...?

Where they belong, in the museum.