New units for Northern - shortlist of manufacturers

[skyhigh]

Phase one of our long-term rolling stock strategy is to replace our oldest trains - the Class 150, 155 and 156 fleets. They’ve served us well but new trains will bring many benefits, including reduced maintenance costs and reducing the complexity that comes with so many different train types.

‌We’ve been working hard on the lengthy process to appoint a company, or companies, that will manufacture our new trains and have achieved a major milestone. Earlier this week we notified five prospective train manufacturers – Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens and Stadler – asking them to bid for the supply of new trains for Northern.

New train types and a phased approach

Our programme has three lots for the manufacturers to consider - Electric Multiple Units (EMU), Battery-Electric Multiple Units (BEMU), and Multi-mode Multiple Units (MMU) capable of conversion to BEMU or EMU during their life.

And we will bring new trains forward in three phases. The first will replace our oldest trains - Class 150, 155 and 156 fleets – and will also support the early stages of the Transpennine Route Upgrade. Phase two will cover the next phase of older trains and diesel-powered trains in the fleet.

Nothing particularly surprising in the announcement, but the shortlist is confirmed as:
Alstom
CAF
Hitachi
Siemens
Stadler

(I am unable to post a direct link to the source).

 

[Russel]

Nothing particularly surprising in the announcement, but the shortlist is confirmed as:
Alstom
CAF
Hitachi
Siemens
Stadler

(I am unable to post a direct link to the source).

Probably easier to list the manufacturers with UK factories that haven't been shortlisted!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Probably easier to list the manufacturers with UK factories that haven't been shortlisted!

Since Vivarail are gone, isn't that literally no-one?

I'm hoping for Stadler.

 

[Danfilm007]

Since Vivarail are gone, isn't that literally no-one?

I'm hoping for Stadler.

Do they do gangway'd FLIRTs? If not, I'm sure a mix of 3, 4 and ideally 6 car units would work well, especially at places like the Mid Cheshire where 4x20m is too long for some platforms.

 

[physics34]

For God's sake please make them, a) compatible b) easy to add on orders c) a standard bodyshell d) comfortable seats.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

For God's sake please make them, a) compatible b) easy to add on orders c) a standard bodyshell d) comfortable seats.

I second this.

 

[physics34]

Since Vivarail are gone, isn't that literally no-one?

I'm hoping for Stadler.

They'll use that faux pa that they will be built in the UK when in fact they will just be assembled like a flat pack. TBF at least the Alstom or Hitachi orders would see UK jobs secure with more created

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The original notice for the procurement (Aug 2023) indicated one supplier for all phases.
The text above mentions "companies", so I imagine that means more than one manufacturer may win an order.
But they will need to be convertible to EMU/BEMU.

We need to see the ITT for an assessment of the likely designs.
They are starting with the hardest tranche (DMU replacement) first.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The text above mentions "companies", so I imagine that means more than one manufacturer may win an order.

The active tender has several lots and phases which could theoretically go to different companies (how likely this is, I have no clue).

 

[wickham]

There is confliction in this announcement: First they state that they want to "eliminate complexities" which come with dirrerent train types, then they state they are working to appoint "a company or companies" to manufacture the new trains ! Surely only one bid winner will provide a standard or compatible fleet - if more than one company wins, they will be stuck with the "complexities" they say they want to eliminate !!

 

[Russel]

Do they do gangway'd FLIRTs? If not, I'm sure a mix of 3, 4 and ideally 6 car units would work well, especially at places like the Mid Cheshire where 4x20m is too long for some platforms.

Will gangways be a consideration, given the CAF stock was delivered without them?

On the double 350's on the Trent Valley, I see no end of people who are hesitant to pass through the cab area into the other set, so I'm wondering from a passenger point of view, how important it actually is?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Since Vivarail are gone, isn't that literally no-one?

I'm hoping for Stadler.

Weren't Talgo looking at building an assembly plant in the UK a while back? Though it's all gone quiet on that front so maybe it was dependent on winning the HS2 contract?

 

[fgwrich]

They'll use that faux pa that they will be built in the UK when in fact they will just be assembled like a flat pack. TBF at least the Alstom or Hitachi orders would see UK jobs secure with more created

So would Siemens. I mean, at one point they had more British assembled components in a Desiro City than the equivalent unit from Bombardier.

Siemens will also tick the local element - Goole, and can be a Desiro derivative.

 

[Trainman40083]

Weren't Talgo looking at building an assembly plant in the UK a while back? Though it's all gone quiet on that front so maybe it was dependent on winning the HS2 contract?

Yes, Talgo were looking at a site at Longannet on the old Power Station site (north bank of the River Forth). No HS2 order, probably scuppered that

 

[superkev]

To me only Siemens and possibly Stradler and Hitachi trains seem to work out of the box. The rest seem to take literally years to reach service and acceptable reliability.
K

 

[Trainman40083]

But will they take the opportunity for level boarding? Probably find the platforms are all at different heights.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Probably find the platforms are all at different heights.

Isn't that the point of level boarding, to deal with all but the biggest steps?

 

[Trainman40083]

Isn't that the point of level boarding, to deal with all but the biggest steps?

Well there are distance gaps, height differences who knows what else.. Interesting that so far, we have only seen it in a few areas

 

[DanNCL]

My understanding, unless things have changed, is that level boarding is preferred. If that’s still the case then with that in mind, CAF probably won’t last long on the shortlist and Hitachi might struggle too. Stadler do level boarding as standard and Alstom have confirmed that it’ll be available on the Adessia platform too. Siemens have just made changes to the Desiro Verve so possible that they might also now offer level boarding.

Good to see that the 150s, 155s and 156s are going first. They’re all overdue replacement.

 

[Trainman40083]

My understanding, unless things have changed, is that level boarding is preferred. If that’s still the case then with that in mind, CAF probably won’t last long on the shortlist and Hitachi might struggle too. Stadler do level boarding as standard and Alstom have confirmed that it’ll be available on the Adessia platform too. Siemens have just made changes to the Desiro Verve so possible that they might also now offer level boarding.

Good to see that the 150s, 155s and 156s are going first. They’re all overdue replacement.

Was it 1985/1986, when the 150s started service?

 

[physics34]

So would Siemens. I mean, at one point they had more British assembled components in a Desiro City than the equivalent unit from Bombardier.

Siemens will also tick the local element - Goole, and can be a Desiro derivative.

Cool... forgot about the Goole/Siemens plant

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Was it 1985/1986, when the 150s started service?

Built 1984-1987, Wikipedia states service started 5 November 1984, I think that was with one of the two 3 car prototypes (001 or 002).
It states /1s started 1985, /2s started 1987 (the Class 150 Wikipedia article has 12 citation needed markers!)

 

[D365]

To me only Siemens and possibly Stradler and Hitachi trains seem to work out of the box. The rest seem to take literally years to reach service and acceptable reliability.

Class 555, 777, 810 say otherwise. But this is all said entirely on a speculative basis - and I don’t imagine that Northern would be tendering for ‘metro’ or InterCity units.

 

[wickham]

It was announced some time ago that Talgo had pulled out of the UK market. They did have a presence at Barrow Hill for a time, which included one (old) Talgo trailer car. I think this has been relocated or given away but can not recall who or where to.

 

[flyer]

Can’t wait for this new rolling stock to arrive and get rid of the old wrecks we’ve had to put up with for so long.
I just hope they order more longer trains, 2 and 3 car just aren’t long enough for a lot of the routes they’ve been serving.

 

[Trainman40083]

Built 1984-1987, Wikipedia states service started 5 November 1984, I think that was with one of the two 3 car prototypes (001 or 002).
It states /1s started 1985, /2s started 1987 (the Class 150 Wikipedia article has 12 citation needed markers!)

Yes, it would have been 1984 for the prototypes, 1985 for the 150/1xx and 1987 for the 150/2xx I think.

 

[Energy]

There is confliction in this announcement: First they state that they want to "eliminate complexities" which come with dirrerent train types, then they state they are working to appoint "a company or companies" to manufacture the new trains ! Surely only one bid winner will provide a standard or compatible fleet - if more than one company wins, they will be stuck with the "complexities" they say they want to eliminate !!

The framework is divided into 3 lots. Orders from the framework are done in phases, with 2 phases detailed as part of the framework award. These lots can be awarded to separate manufacturers.

Lot 1 - EMU
Phase 1
11 x 3 car
Phase 2
34 x 3 car
16 x 4 car

These may be ordered under Lot 2 or Lot 3 as direct built to EMUs.

Lot 2 - Multimode Multiple Unit (Diesel + Battery + Electric with potential to convert or direct build to Electric + Battery Electric)
Phase 1
44 x 3 car
66 x 4 car
Phase 2
30 x 3 car
20 x 4 car

Lot 3 - Battery EMU (Battery + Electric with poential to convert or direct build to Electric)
Phase 1
6 x 4 car
Phase 2
26 x 4 car

These may be ordered under Lot 2 as direct built to BEMUs.

It is possible that all lots are awarded to the same manufacturer but it isn't unlikely that a mix is chosen. For example, CAF could offer a class 331 compatible EMU for Lot 1 which would make a lot of sense.

My understanding, unless things have changed, is that level boarding is preferred. If that’s still the case then with that in mind, CAF probably won’t last long on the shortlist and Hitachi might struggle too.

Northern has previously stated a preference toward level boarding, but since all units are 3+ vehicles all CAF would need to do is engineer a new centre car with a central lower section.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding, unless things have changed, is that level boarding is preferred. If that’s still the case then with that in mind, CAF probably won’t last long on the shortlist and Hitachi might struggle too. Stadler do level boarding as standard and Alstom have confirmed that it’ll be available on the Adessia platform too. Siemens have just made changes to the Desiro Verve so possible that they might also now offer level boarding.

Can't remember where I read it but I understand the Desiro Verve does now offer level boarding as an option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

Can’t wait for this new rolling stock to arrive and get rid of the old wrecks we’ve had to put up with for so long.
I just hope they order more longer trains, 2 and 3 car just aren’t long enough for a lot of the routes they’ve been serving.

I believe 3 and 4 are the intention. There aren't any UK 25kV 2 car EMUs, there's not enough underfloor space for all the gubbins I believe. There are enough 2 car 195s to cascade to secondary lines, which was the main reason, I understand, why the 195 fleet isn't all 3 car.

 

[43096]

There aren't any UK 25kV 2 car EMUs, there's not enough underfloor space for all the gubbins I believe.

Not true. Class 309 says "hello".

 

[Class15]

Not true. Class 309 says "hello".

Indeed. There were most certainly 2-car 309s. Definitely possible!