Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[GhostManDN91]

Any idea what the C6 work involves for the 769s?

 

[diligentdave]

Keep an eye out for something coming south from Kilmarnock as presumably they have finished fettling 769006 and this is the second one to go have some love and care before it gets going with Northern.

769006 is effectively a shell inside, no seats, no heaters etc. as these units have been converted to convey parcels. They will not end up at Northern.

Any idea what the C6 work involves for the 769s?

On the Northern 769's it's basically new flooring, door equipment overhaul, internal valves and the like. Problem is the current 769's are beset with corrosion (like the 150's as they are effectively the same body shell design) that we've been tackling for years across all steel bodied vehicles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2025 ==

There are also wires north of Barrhead.

Apparently the GWR units have been tested in both modes on all of the G&SWR lines. It tends to be useful to run under the wires, so to solve any issues they can just raise the pantograph. It remains to be seen whether the TfW units at Kilmarnock, or the Northern units will receive the same improvements.

It’s nothing to do with that. All 319s had their 3rd rail shoes removed when they were returned to Porterbrook off lease by Thameslink, before any of them entered service with Northern and before the 769 conversion was devised. At that time they could not run to Southport and did not encounter any third rail.

The GWR 769s had additional work to reinstate DC equipment that the Northern and TfW units didn’t, because the line they were intended to run on, the North Downs line is a mixture of 3rd rail and unelectrified sections.

It would be nice on an integrated railway if the failed 769s that have been stranded at Southport for weeks at a time could have run back to Allerton the most direct route via Liverpool Central, under their own power using the 3rd rail, rather than having to wait to be dragged back to Springs Branch, although some have been able to be taken on the back of an in service train.

It seems to be standard to remove 3rd rail equipment from off lease fleets dual voltage that may be leased again outside the Southern Region. The same was done with 365s.

That's not exactly true. When the 319's were delivered to Northern from GTR, the 3rd rail shoe gear was simply tied up out of the way. Most of it was removed by Northern at Allerton. The Flex units had it all removed at Brush (on the Northern allocated units that is).

There were a few incidents during the delivery of the off-lease 319's whereby the odd shoe arm dropped whilst in transit or was struck by lineside items but other than that, as I stated, it was all removed by Northern/Brush where applicable.

There is no requirement for Northern units to have 3rd rail DC equipment reinstated and it won't be either.

 

[Geeves]

Thanks for the update Dave. I had wrongly assumed 006 was one of our "new" 769s cheers!

 

[D365]

There is no requirement for Northern units to have 3rd rail DC equipment reinstated and it won't be either.

Irrespective of operator requirements - the third rail pickup cannot be reinstated on the /0 and /4 subclasses.

 

[Nym]

Irrespective of operator requirements - the third rail pickup cannot be reinstated on the /0 and /4 subclasses.

You could re-instate the pickup, but it wouldn't be able to do anything. The cables to the shoe fuses is long gone.

 

[Gricer99]

Only 424 and 456 rostered today. Wonder if they will complete their diagrams?
Most other services covered by 2 car 150s. And 156s.

 

[Soft Hands]

Only 424 and 456 rostered today. Wonder if they will complete their diagrams?
Most other services covered by 2 car 150s. And 156s.

Yesterday two out of the six diagrams were covered by 769's. Just to put all this into perspective, Newton Heath have 33 156's, 32 of which were used in passenger service. The 33rd is out again today. Phenomenal levels of "old DMU" availability are being achieved by Newton Heath, in excess of the normal diagram requirements, to cover for 769's!

 

[tumbledown]

Phenomenal levels of "old DMU" availability are being achieved by Newton Heath, in excess of the normal diagram requirements, to cover for 769's!

That's why they jointly with Neville Hill won a Golden Spanner at the recent awards.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yesterday two out of the six diagrams were covered by 769's. Just to put all this into perspective, Newton Heath have 33 156's, 32 of which were used in passenger service. The 33rd is out again today. Phenomenal levels of "old DMU" availability are being achieved by Newton Heath, in excess of the normal diagram requirements, to cover for 769's!

Given that the class 769s are being, or about to be, overhauled, wouldn't it make more sense to give up on them and overhaul 12 of the Welsh 150s instead? They would be more reliable and usable on a far wider range of routes.

 

[Spaceship323]

Given that the class 769s are being, or about to be, overhauled, wouldn't it make more sense to give up on them and overhaul 12 of the Welsh 150s instead? They would be more reliable and usable on a far wider range of routes.

I'm surprised Northern didn't take the rest of the WMT 323's to be honest, I know they're not bi-mode but there's no chance of getting TfW 150's

 

[david l]

Given that the class 769s are being, or about to be, overhauled, wouldn't it make more sense to give up on them and overhaul 12 of the Welsh 150s instead? They would be more reliable and usable on a far wider range of routes.

Need to have 16 overhauled to make 32 cars, which is 8 x 4 car 769.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==

I'm surprised Northern didn't take the rest of the WMT 323's to be honest, I know they're not bi-mode but there's no chance of getting TfW 150's

Agree, but need wires to work! Now if Wigan to Southport and Wigan to Manchester via Atherton had been done...................together with joined up thinking so that Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate had been 3rd railed..........but seeing how long it has taken for Wigan to Lostock (all of 6 1/2 miles) the it would probably take until 2040.

 

[andytj01]

Electrifying to Windermere and Morecambe would by quick and easily utilise 3 class 323s

 

[Bikeman78]

Need to have 16 overhauled to make 32 cars, which is 8 x 4 car 769

Good point, though you wouldn't need 16 class 150s to cover 12 diagrams. 14 would be ample and they would be part of a bigger pool of units.

 

[david l]

Good point, though you wouldn't need 16 class 150s to cover 12 diagrams. 14 would be ample and they would be part of a bigger pool of units.

Possibly, but just look at the number of short forms across the west side when the 769's have an off day/week/month. You can cover for a few days but not longer term (I understand 32 out of33 156's based at NH in traffic one day this week - with the 33rd in traffic the day after ie: virtually 100%, and still plenty short forms)

 

[Soft Hands]

Possibly, but just look at the number of short forms across the west side when the 769's have an off day/week/month. You can cover for a few days but not longer term (I understand 32 out of33 156's based at NH in traffic one day this week - with the 33rd in traffic the day after ie: virtually 100%, and still plenty short forms)

I think where I'm beginning to struggle with this, is that for years now five 156's have been "stored" due to them needing vast amounts of C6 body and additional corrosion repair work, and, for four of them, needing WSP mods as well. That was understandable in the current financial climate. But now we have ex TFW 150/2's going for scrap (equally rotten no doubt!). Surely the leasing companies would be better spending their money on corrosion repair to 150/2's and 156's, rather than C6'ing bodily life expired 769's! They simply can't make them work, with acceptable reliability, day in, day out. But you still, amazingly, can make a 156 perform almost as well as it did when built (the saloon heating is still barely adequate though!). In 21st century commercial contract terms, any clause based on availability rates would generate such massive financial penalties that Northern would be getting 769's for nowt! Perhaps they are?

 

[diligentdave]

I think where I'm beginning to struggle with this, is that for years now five 156's have been "stored" due to them needing vast amounts of C6 body and additional corrosion repair work, and, for four of them, needing WSP mods as well. That was understandable in the current financial climate. But now we have ex TFW 150/2's going for scrap (equally rotten no doubt!). Surely the leasing companies would be better spending their money on corrosion repair to 150/2's and 156's, rather than C6'ing bodily life expired 769's! They simply can't make them work, with acceptable reliability, day in, day out. But you still, amazingly, can make a 156 perform almost as well as it did when built (the saloon heating is still barely adequate though!). In 21st century commercial contract terms, any clause based on availability rates would generate such massive financial penalties that Northern would be getting 769's for nowt! Perhaps they are?

It takes about 120 days to take apart, fix and put back together a 150. So roughly 4 months per unit. The ex-TfW units are not financially viable to repair anymore because TfW are getting new units. If Northern were to take on the ex-TfW 150's then they'd have to wait 4 months before the first unit was available to cover a 769 diagram.

Similarly, the 156's are on an 80 day program due to the corrosion. The 4 at Ely are rot boxes, as is the one at Long Marston. They are all to be used a sources of spares (one day this year - they've been talking about it for many months now).

 

[Soft Hands]

It takes about 120 days to take apart, fix and put back together a 150. So roughly 4 months per unit. The ex-TfW units are not financially viable to repair anymore because TfW are getting new units. If Northern were to take on the ex-TfW 150's then they'd have to wait 4 months before the first unit was available to cover a 769 diagram.

Similarly, the 156's are on an 80 day program due to the corrosion. The 4 at Ely are rot boxes, as is the one at Long Marston. They are all to be used a sources of spares (one day this year - they've been talking about it for many months now).

Thank you Dave. Lets hope the C6 plus mods work on a 769 proves to be more viable, for both the leasing company and the TOC! Living in Bolton and seeing, daily, 769 "issues" does perhaps cloud my judgement. Good job we still have a bay platform to dump the demics in!

 

[SLTRegular]

Need to have 16 overhauled to make 32 cars, which is 8 x 4 car 769.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2025 ==


Agree, but need wires to work! Now if Wigan to Southport and Wigan to Manchester via Atherton had been done...................together with joined up thinking so that Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate had been 3rd railed..........but seeing how long it has taken for Wigan to Lostock (all of 6 1/2 miles) the it would probably take until 2040.

There's alot of people on the Wigan-Headbolt Lane section that would be voting there politians out if they lost direct trains to Manchester instead of services to Liverpool especially on the Wigan-Upholland section.

 

[childwallblues]

there is a path in for Tuesday 14/01 5Q08 1129 Allerton Depot to Kilmarnock Bonnyton Depot.

 

[507016]

there is a path in for Tuesday 14/01 5Q08 1129 Allerton Depot to Kilmarnock Bonnyton Depot.

Any idea what it is/could be? And or why

 

[Ribbleman]

Northern’s 8 x Class 769 units are all going for C6 exams at Brodies’ in Kilmarnock. In order to provide cover during the next year or so, Porterbrook are providing Northern with two of the former TfW sets. Things seem to be running late, as only one of those sets has as of yet arrived at Crewe IEMD to have a pantograph fitted, transformer serviced or replaced and test programme carried out before handing over to Northern.

 

[diligentdave]

Any idea what it is/could be? And or why

769431 being hauled by 37884 (currently).

 

[Bikeman78]

Northern’s 8 x Class 769 units are all going for C6 exams at Brodies’ in Kilmarnock. In order to provide cover during the next year or so, Porterbrook are providing Northern with two of the former TfW sets. Things seem to be running late, as only one of those sets has as of yet arrived at Crewe IEMD to have a pantograph fitted, transformer serviced or replaced and test programme carried out before handing over to Northern.

I guess the ROSCO is paying for all of this? It seems strange that they keep on chucking money at a fleet that often manages 25% availability. Imagine if the 150s or 156s were that bad. It would be chaos.

 

[Ribbleman]

I guess the ROSCO is paying for all of this? It seems strange that they keep on chucking money at a fleet that often manages 25% availability. Imagine if the 150s or 156s were that bad. It would be chaos.

Yes, Porterbrook are paying for it all. Now that they own 49% of Brodies they effectively have in-house engineering facilities available. They are very determined to make the 769 project work. Whether they can remains to be seen.

 

[Killingworth]

Yes, Porterbrook are paying for it all. Now that they own 49% of Brodies they effectively have in-house engineering facilities available. They are very determined to make the 769 project work. Whether they can remains to be seen.

No doubt Porterbrook and Northern have a very good idea what's wrong with these units by now, or so you'd like to think. Were 319s anything like as bad?

Adding the diesel engines and controls clearly adds complexity. Old age faults and scarcity of spares adds more. Add to that small fleet issues for crewing and maintenance and very mixed views on their usefulness and we end with what we've got. A shame. I thought it was a worthwhile project and travelled on one to Southportandc back on their first day of public operation. I hope Brodies can finally make a silk purse out of what's turning out to be a pig's ear.

 

[jfollows]

No doubt Porterbrook and Northern have a very good idea what's wrong with these units by now, or so you'd like to think. Were 319s anything like as bad?

319s were knackered by the time they were in service with Northern, yes. I’m personally glad to see the back of them, although they were fine when they weren’t breaking down, eg Airport-Liverpool Lime Street when it was initially a semi-fast service.

The usual cast-off units given to the poor people outside London. I was on a class 345 last week and laughed at the thought they’d make it to Manchester in my lifetime.

 

[Peter Sarf]

319s were knackered by the time they were in service with Northern, yes. I’m personally glad to see the back of them, although they were fine when they weren’t breaking down, eg Airport-Liverpool Lime Street when it was initially a semi-fast service.

The usual cast-off units given to the poor people outside London. I was on a class 345 last week and laughed at the thought they’d make it to Manchester in my lifetime.

It would have been better if there had been more electrification. Then unmodified 319s or the 321s would have been better/simpler. I know they are second hand BUT if it meant electrification happened I would be happy.

The 319s seemed to perform OK on Thameslink. But then I do not know how much they were run down when those maintaining them knew they were going, how long did they fester out of use and goodness knows how they have fared after gaining diesel engines etc etc. I suppose comparison needs to made with the unmodified straight electric 319s that Northern had.

 

[jfollows]

I suppose comparison needs to made with the unmodified straight electric 319s that Northern had.

Which were old and unreliable when delivered, as I thought I’d already said. Simply past their useful life by then. We previously had AM9s which were also on their last legs, although they were wonderful when they worked!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Which were old and unreliable when delivered, as I thought I’d already said. Simply past their useful life by then. We previously had AM9s which were also on their last legs, although they were wonderful when they worked!

Were the 319s as bad as the 769s ?.

I am a bit surprised the 319s were as bad as you feel they were because I was not aware of complaints while they were still in London.

 

[jfollows]

Were the 319s as bad as the 769s ?.

I am a bit surprised the 319s were as bad as you feel they were because I was not aware of complaints while they were still in London.

The 319s were old and prone to failure. The only EMU I’ve had fail on me in service as a passenger. Others who drove and operated them will be more reliable than I am.
We now get 30-year old 323s from Birmingham, again who knows how much good life they have left in them.
The 769s are unreliability piled on unreliability. The concept is not matched by the reality.

Your point is a typical London one - they worked fine from new until we got rid of them!