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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Yew

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Fixed it for you. Only the Telegraph and Mail are on the right, everything else, and the BBC, is on the left. For example, where are the calls from anywhere other than the Telegraph for a national inquiry into the grooming gangs scandal in numerous cities across the country.
Lots of the newspapers certainly are right wing, perhaps not the Mirror and the Guardian, but apart from that all the big players are.
Abuse of power???? How about all of Starmer's freebies, his decision to deny us a vote in the upcoming local elections,
That is not factually accurate, councils were given the choice, I believe that others have provided a factual assessment of the situation for you previously - i recommend you take that on board.
 
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Gloster

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Conservative PMs go off on expensive holidays where, because of their exclusivity, security is no problem…that’s fine. A Labour PM goes on a more modest holiday where some compromises are necessary for security reasons and the fires of hell are dumped on him.
 

GatwickDepress

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Fixed it for you. Only the Telegraph and Mail are on the right, everything else, and the BBC, is on the left. For example, where are the calls from anywhere other than the Telegraph for a national inquiry into the grooming gangs scandal in numerous cities across the country.
Good to know that GB News, Express, Sun, and the Times are all devoted comrades. I hope to see Andrew Neil on the frontlines, leading the fight against the vicious capitalist dogs.
 

edwin_m

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Only the Telegraph and Mail are on the right, everything else, and the BBC, is on the left.
Express? Sun? GB News? Talk TV? Even the Times is fairly well to the right.

The more left wing press (basically the Mirror and the Guardian/Observer) are somewhat more supportive of Labour but do criticise it, sometimes with a viewpoint that Labour has gone too far to the right. Whereas my perception of the right wing press is that they will amplify any story that can be used to put Starmer and Labour in a bad light, and when they do this to someone on the right it is usually to promote a rival right-wing faction.
 

AlterEgo

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Fixed it for you. Only the Telegraph and Mail are on the right, everything else, and the BBC, is on the left.
....what?

For example, where are the calls from anywhere other than the Telegraph for a national inquiry into the grooming gangs scandal in numerous cities across the country.
Um, there are loads of call for this from many quarters, not least GB News. It's a horrible outlet, but one of the journalists there, Charlie Peters, has been doing some excellent work around the grooming gangs. If you want to read the actual news, don't bother with a news outlet though - social media is where you'll find the sentencing remarks properly reported.

Dozens more people should be jailed for the complicity in that scandal and people are right to be angry about it, but to suggest that only two publications in the UK are right wing is ludicrous.
 

brad465

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How about all of Starmer's freebies, his decision to deny us a vote in the upcoming local elections, giving away the Chagos Islands without a Vote and to a country who had no connection to them, giving money abroad for climate change projects whilst denying the Winter Fuel Allowance to our elderly, cosying up to the WASPIs before the election to get their votes before abandoning them.
How much of the UK population actually knew where the Chagos Islands are, the UK's involvement in them and what the impact the UK's ownership of the islands on them was prior to that deal being announced? I can't see any research online at first glance, but I'm willing to bet it's a very small proportion, to the point that no manifesto would have fronted it and any referendum would have been considered a poor priority choice.

If you want the population to have a vote on every single policy decision the UK makes, you need a constitution like that of Switzerland, which has regular referenda, but also strict rules governing their conduct.
 

MotCO

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How much of the UK population actually knew where the Chagos Islands are, the UK's involvement in them and what the impact the UK's ownership of the islands on them was prior to that deal being announced? I can't see any research online at first glance, but I'm willing to bet it's a very small proportion, to the point that no manifesto would have fronted it and any referendum would have been considered a poor priority choice.

If you want the population to have a vote on every single policy decision the UK makes, you need a constitution like that of Switzerland, which has regular referenda, but also strict rules governing their conduct.
I meant a Vote in the House, rather than a referendum.
 

Richard Scott

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This is just such an awful take. Britain hates its political class so much it demands they live in sackcloth and ashes. The ideal candidate for being the head of our nuclear armed state takes public transport everywhere, doesn’t get on a plane, drives themselves everywhere, sends kids to state school, wears Primark, etc etc. Just an avatar of the working class or something, cosplaying at being poorer than they are.

Things won’t actually get better in this country until being a lawmaker is a serious job coveted by normal, educated, capable people, rewarded appropriately, and not dominated by weirdos who wouldn’t survive anywhere else.

Totally unserious country with very unserious, jealous, misanthropic people. We are so screwed when people think like this
Sorry, it's not hatred of anyone but if you're in certain positions you have to behave in certain ways otherwise you cannot expect people to take you seriously.
There are a number of professions where you have to lead by example and afraid being a politician is one of them. Appreciate many don’t but then they should expect to be questioned and justify their actions like rest of us have to in our workplace.
 

Magdalia

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his decision to deny us a vote in the upcoming local elections
This is false. As I explained in #889 above, county councils have an option to apply to postpone elections but it is their choice.

The elections are going ahead in Cambridgeshire see here:


The county council has confirmed to the BBC these elections will go ahead, despite the government giving councils the option to postpone them so attention can be focused on making plans for new unitary authorities.

The elections are going ahead in Hertfordshire see here:


The leader of a county council has ruled out making a fast-track bid to reorganise local government.

It means Hertfordshire County Council will not be submitting an application ahead of the government's 10 January devolution deadline and May's local elections will go ahead as planned.

One shire council considering applying for a postponement is Conservative controlled Norfolk see here:


A plan to postpone elections for Norfolk County Council later this year would set "a dangerous precedent", an opposition group leader has warned.

The Conservative-run authority is expected to vote in favour of working with the government on a major shake-up of local authorities, announced last month, and has asked for May's election to be delayed.

Council leader Kay Mason Billig said that would be "a usual step for areas that are considering reorganisation".

Postponing elections in this way is not new, it happened in 2021 in Cumbria, Somerset and North Yorkshire, when Boris Johnson was Prime Minister, see here:


Council elections in three English counties have been postponed because those authorities could be abolished.

Plans have been submitted to create unitary authorities in place of existing councils in Cumbria, Somerset and North Yorkshire.

The government said delaying elections, due to be held on 6 May, until May 2022 would avoid "confusing" voters.
 
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Yew

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Um, there are loads of call for this from many quarters, not least GB News. It's a horrible outlet, but one of the journalists there, Charlie Peters, has been doing some excellent work around the grooming gangs. If you want to read the actual news, don't bother with a news outlet though - social media is where you'll find the sentencing remarks properly reported.
It's worth remembering as well that despite the noise they are making now, the Conservatives opposed even local inquiries into these issues when they were in power.
 

YorkshireBear

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It's worth remembering as well that despite the noise they are making now, the Conservatives opposed even local inquiries into these issues when they were in power.
Absolutely, only two years ago they rejected a national inquiry.

It just goes to show what we have become, just turning anything against the other party without any scrutiny.
 

Harpo

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Absolutely, only two years ago they rejected a national inquiry.

It just goes to show what we have become, just turning anything against the other party without any scrutiny.
Goldfish bowl politics. Exploiting the public's woeful political memory, as evidenced by those who suggest Johnson was somehow wronged.
 

Tetchytyke

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Most European governments live off a magic money tree
Governments all have a magic money tree. They can print as much money as they like. Indeed they have been doing for many many years- "quantitative easing" was just a snazzy name for printing money. Central banks created new money from thin air and this money was used to buy bonds from the banks. Of course it wasn't used for any purpose that would actually help common people, it went to the banks to prop up their balance sheets after the 2008 financial crash. It's been the main driver of asset inflation too.

National budgets aren't like household budgets. The biggest problem we have politically is the persistent argument that a government is the same as a household and somehow has to "balance the books". This fallacy is why we've had 14 years of austerity and it looks like Labour are going to do nothing but give us another five years of austerity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Goldfish bowl politics. Exploiting the public's woeful political memory, as evidenced by those who suggest Johnson was somehow wronged.

Nobody ever lost money underestimating the stupidity of the general public.

Take the child sex abuse issue. We had an independent inquiry, it cost £250 million and it published its results in 2022. They have a website setting out their findings: https://www.iicsa.org.uk/index.html

This was the inquiry that Conservative Prime Minister Boris Johnson described as "spaffing money up the wall". But the Tories think we now need another one? Really?
giving away the Chagos Islands without a Vote and to a country who had no connection to them
Most people whining about the Chagos Islands wouldn't be able to point to them on a map. And they've certainly done bugger all to help the Chagossian people who were forcibly evicted from the islands in the early 1960s.

The UN and the ICJ have both found that the islands should be returned to Mauritius.

Anyway, it's a moot point as the new Mauritian government has rejected the transfer of sovereignty as they believe the terms offered are not good enough.
 
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Magdalia

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Governments all have a magic money tree. They can print as much money as they like. Indeed they have been doing for many many years- "quantitative easing" was just a snazzy name for printing money. Central banks created new money from thin air and this money was used to buy bonds from the banks. Of course it wasn't used for any purpose that would actually help common people, it went to the banks to prop up their balance sheets after the 2008 financial crash. It's been the main driver of asset inflation too.
No governments can't print as much money as they would like.

You are right that quantitative easing was a snazzy name for printing money, but Central Banks were only able to start doing it because of the 2008 crash, and to continue doing it because all of the major Central Banks acted together.

The economic theory was that quantitative easing would filter through to the real economy, but the outcome, as you correctly identify, was mainly inflation in asset prices. It was a policy response that was tried and found not to work in the way that was intended.

Quantitative easing was tolerated while it was regarded as a temporary response to a crisis, and while government debt was at a sustainable level, but is not perpetual and one country can't act that way on its own.

The Central Banks were able to continue with quantitative easing while inflation and interest rates remained low, but the supply side shock of the war in Ukraine killed the magic money tree.

With higher inflation and interest rates, and higher government debt, Central Banks can't print unlimited amounts of money because of the impact on public sector debt interest rates. The bigger a government's existing debt the more constrained it is. That was well demonstrated by what happened in the UK in 2022.
 

TravelDream

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Governments all have a magic money tree. They can print as much money as they like.

@Magdalia beat me to it, but they can't just print as much money as they like. QE definitely has it's place, but it can't just go on and on.
Look at Argentina, Venezuela or Zimbabwe to see what happens when governments do that.

As with everything, a careful balance is needed. The 2010-2015 government certainly went too far in certain areas (though not far enough in others), and the level of austerity was, on the whole, harmful.
Excessive QE over the last 15 years has led to high inflation, increased wealth inequality and devaluation of the pound.
 

Tetchytyke

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Quantitative easing was tolerated while it was regarded as a temporary response to a crisis, and while government debt was at a sustainable level, but is not perpetual and one country can't act that way on its own.

@Magdalia beat me to it, but they can't just print as much money as they like. QE definitely has it's place, but it can't just go on and on.
I completely agree that there are limits to how far a central bank can push things and that limit largely depends on how 'hard' a currency is. Central banks which govern the US Dollar, the GB Pound, and the Euro will always have more wriggle room than, say, Argentina (which has had more currency collapses than I have had hot dinners) or Venezuela.

But my main point was that national government spending is more complicated than money in versus money out. The last government proved that; whilst they were saying there was 'no magic money tree' to support social care or the NHS there was the biggest magic money tree you've ever seen to support Barclays' balance sheet.
It was a policy response that was tried and found not to work in the way that was intended.
Like trickle-down economics, I'm cynical enough to believe it did work exactly the way it was intended. The aim was never to trickle the money down into the economy, the aim was to shore up the balance sheets of the over-leveraged big banks.
 

Magdalia

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Central banks which govern the US Dollar, the GB Pound, and the Euro will always have more wriggle room than, say, Argentina (which has had more currency collapses than I have had hot dinners) or Venezuela.
The Bank of England does not have as much wriggle room as either the US Federal Reserve (Fed) or the European Central Bank (ECB). The Fed has two major advantages: the US economy is nowhere near as open as the Euro area or the UK, and the US dollar is still de facto the global reserve currency. The Euro members have safety in numbers and the UK declined the opportunity to join that.

Like trickle-down economics, I'm cynical enough to believe it did work exactly the way it was intended. The aim was never to trickle the money down into the economy, the aim was to shore up the balance sheets of the over-leveraged big banks.
You are right that the first aim was to shore up the balance sheets of the banks, but I'm less sure that policy makers intended to inflate assets prices more generally instead of supporting economic activity.
 

edwin_m

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Starmer is (quite rightly as far as I can see) hitting back at the disinformation suggesting he did nothing about grooming gangs when he was Director of Public Prosecutions.

Sir Keir said Labour was addressing child sexual after Conservatives inaction "for 14 long years".

Online debate around grooming gangs had now "crossed a line", resulting in threats against MPs, including Safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips, he said.

"We have seen this playbook many times — whipping up of intimidation and of threats of violence, hoping that the media will amplify it," Sir Keir said.

"Those who are spreading lies and misinformation as far and as wide as possible are not interested in victims, they're interested in themselves," he added.

Some of this relates to Musk, which I assume is being discussed on the Musk thread, but my blood pressure won't stand going there.
 

Meole

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TravelDream

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Another topic I just don't get.

Don't people realise that the Conservative party had been in government for over 14 years (2010-2024)?

Keir Starmer was DPP 2008-2013 - over a decade ago now.

Yet, somehow KS was 'complicit in mass rapes in exchange for votes'

It simply doesn't add up.
 

alex397

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Starmer is (quite rightly as far as I can see) hitting back at the disinformation suggesting he did nothing about grooming gangs when he was Director of Public Prosecutions.
Facts will not get in the way of people’s prejudices, which are often confirmed by the hate speech they read on Facebook.
Same with Khan - it doesn’t matter what he does or doesn’t do, a certain element have got it in their mind that he is evil. I see absolutely ridiculous comments about him which have clearly been influenced by disinformation.
 

edwin_m

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Facts will not get in the way of people’s prejudices, which are often confirmed by the hate speech they read on Facebook.
Same with Khan - it doesn’t matter what he does or doesn’t do, a certain element have got it in their mind that he is evil. I see absolutely ridiculous comments about him which have clearly been influenced by disinformation.
Probably true for the "certain element" who would never support Labour anyway. But at least Starmer and co are trying to hit back on this and may sway a few who are open to persuasion.
 

alex397

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Probably true for the "certain element" who would never support Labour anyway. But at least Starmer and co are trying to hit back on this and may sway a few who are open to persuasion.
Indeed, I agree. I guess the silly people who post ridiculous misinformed hate speech are the loudest. Most people are probably more sensible and more open minded about life.
 

edwin_m

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Indeed, I agree. I guess the silly people who post ridiculous misinformed hate speech are the loudest. Most people are probably more sensible and more open minded about life.
I hope so. But there has been such a drumbeat from the likes of the Telegraph, Mail and Express, and the Standard seems to have morphed from fairly decent to a clone of the above. At least going by the articles posted elsewhere - I certainly don't honour them with my clicks.

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth." - Vladimir Lenin
 

YorkshireBear

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Starmer is (quite rightly as far as I can see) hitting back at the disinformation suggesting he did nothing about grooming gangs when he was Director of Public Prosecutions.



Some of this relates to Musk, which I assume is being discussed on the Musk thread, but my blood pressure won't stand going there.
I find this whole thing fairly concerning because of the volume of people I know who believe it all...

I can always hope most people are more mild manerred and I think they are but I'm concerned with how many people just take it as gospel.
 

Gloster

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Too many people haven’t caught up with the fact that in days gone anything broadcast or published would be quickly traced back to the source, but nowadays, the internet means that lies can be spread in seconds. When you add to that an egomaniac with enormous resources who has come to believe in his own right to say what he wants without sanction, you have a problem. The less astute observer is likely to think, ‘they wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t true, would they,’ but times have changed.

I wonder if Tim Berners-Lee still thinks that inventing the internet was a good idea.
Moderator note: the above claim, which has now been struck through, is inaccurate
 
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Meole

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It was Boris Johnson who made the first claims about Starmer's apparent negligence or complicity as DPP.
 

Richard Scott

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....and we all know how wonderful his competency and integrity turned out to be! ;)
He had the potential to be competent it's just his integrity prevented it. He was also more interested in his image and changed his views with the wind!
Don't doubt he was an intelligent person but he never put it to good use.
 

mikeg

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Too many people haven’t caught up with the fact that in days gone anything broadcast or published would be quickly traced back to the source, but nowadays the internet means that lies can be spread in seconds. When you add to that an egomaniac with enormous ressources who has come to believe in his own right to say what he wants without sanction, you have a problem. The less astute observer is likely to think, ‘they wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t true, would they,’ but times have changed.

I wonder if Tim Berners-Lee still thinks that inventing the internet was a good idea.
Tim Berners-Lee did not invent the internet, rather the World Wide Web, just one set of protocols. Ironically it was meant to be decentrailised, but has become increasingly centralised, especially by the likes of Musk, Amazon, Microsoft, Alphabet... I do however miss the middle ages of the Internet (late 90s-mid 2000s)... Remember when Amazon was just a good place to buy books and CDs? Now it's a good place to buy very little, yet stocks everything. I can almost always find a better deal elsewhere if I take the time and haven't used them in years, anyway I digress...
I've never known a government though come under such an onslaught, it's almsot as if organised interests are against it. For that reason I'm glad I supported it, even if I've thus far been underwhelmed by actual policy output. I will not let them subvert our democracy, flawed though it is. The freebies scandal? Everything was declared and the vast majority if not all within the law. The fact they declared it seems to have given the right-wing media ammo, if it had been Johnson it'd have been done behind back doors. One rule for them, another rule for the rest of us. In particular the bile aimed at Angela Rayner gets my back up. She goes out in a cheap teal coloured dress and everyone bemoans how common she is and has no taste. She receives somehting smarter and declares it, it's corruption somehow. She buys something smart with her own money. She's an out of touch champagne socialist. Just what is she meant to do? It's almost as if for the working class, we shouldn't progress. We should know our place. That really grates with me.

Going off on a tangent, it's strange how monopoly capitalism, similar to that of the gilded age, has returned, together with all of the power that entails. We were told free market economics would bring more competition and place power back with the individual consumer. Yet see when Uber didn't get its way in London a few years ago, people rallied around the monopolist, who was able to deploy its PR machinery, rather than the officials they themselves had elected. Now people seem to willingly empower monopolies, those who control them and few seem to mind, despite it leading to worse service. I've not signed into ex-Twitter in a while now. I doubt I will interact with it again in any meaningful way. Frankly, the righties seem to live in a parallel universe, devoid of truth and made up soleley of newspaper headlines and throwaway quotes from the likes of Musk, Farage et al. There were once Conservatives, both large and small 'c', that I could respectfully disagree with, not all moderates. Now I struggle to find those I admire at all, at least in this country. I disagree with some of the things the new governemnt is doing and it could be better, but compared to the main alternative it's bloody marvellous.

What upsets me most is that the old solutions and values are now inadequate against various forces in the world (Russia, Trump, Billionaire tech bros, to name but a few), I fear it will be a long time before we return to a balanced economy, the global village, more liberty but combined with a degree of social justice etc. twenty or so years, after the Cold War were a golden age for people like me, for people who want to see people free, but nobody fall down too hard, and we didn't even seem to realise. Things weren't great, but they sure weren't this bad. Starmer can't do right for doing wrong. News quantity is greater than ever, but its quality worse and its ownership more concentrated than ever. Even the BBC has had to learn to operate on the terms of this enviromnent to maintain its credibility against a biased yardstick.

If my point about monopolies seems unrelated, it's that a few wealthy people now have such a disproportionate influence that I'm not sure democracy as we know it can survive. I think that, along with some poor early decision making and overpromising, are what is doing for Starmer. A democracy requires mass participation, mass access to knowledge to make informed decisions and by definition broadly equal influence. ie. one person, one vote. Whilst the formality of the latter may be maintained, the way in which that vote is influenced has changed dramatically. The mass media of old for all its paternalism, in particular broadcast media, maintained at least a reasonable degree of fairness between views which were seen as reasonable. Now that's gone. I'm beginning to see @Gloster 's point in other words. The solution would probably be to break the tech monopolies at least in the sort to medium term, as well as restore some order to broadcast media. This means more freedom of speech, not less. It means everyone or almost everyone get a say, not just the media owners. No doubt the media owners will howl censorship, but I think the restoration of imparitality rules and their actual enforcement is important to democracy.
 
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