French gov issues tender for new night train stock to replace the 50 year old Corail stock

[signed]

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The Transport Ministry has announced that they will be running a tender for new night train stock to replace the now 50 year old Corail stock used on Night Trains. (yes, I only figured out after posting that that announcment is from November)

TET = Train d'équilibre du Territoire (Territory balance train) is a term that designates all the lines currently named Intercités under SNCF. Those are directly managed by the central government.

• Début 2025 devrait être lancé l'avis d'appel public à concurrence pour le renouvellement du matériel roulant des lignes TET de nuit, tant attendu. Les études pour les installations de maintenance à Paris-Masséna et Ivry se poursuivront en vue de travaux d'adaptation à court terme. Au total, l'investissement sera de plusieurs centaines de millions d'euros.

• In the beginning of 2025 is expected to start the tender to renew the rolling stock for the TET night lines.

Also found on the report is a tender to replace Corail day stock on Bordeaux-Marseille Intercités, with delivery expected 2028.

Nantes-Bordeaux and Nantes-Lyon will see their operator chosen after having been tendered. SNCF and Le Train are the two companies in the running.

 

[StephenHunter]

So there will soon be a tete-a-tete over TET?

Does this include actual proper sleepers?

 

[signed]

Does this include actual proper sleepers?

I would doubt it, probably couchettes-only.

It's not commercial routes (and is a sensitive political topic) so I don't think they will bother in the slightest.

 

[30907]

I would doubt it, probably couchettes-only.

It's not commercial routes (and is a sensitive political topic) so I don't think they will bother in the slightest.

Maybe the French market is different, but I would have thought not having an ensuite facility - which Nightjet can charge an arm and a leg for, it seems - would be missing a trick.
(It would certainly put me off overnight travel in France at my age.)

I could see the winning bid being either a "new" NJ clone, or a batch of Comfortline cars (released by more NJ sets at the Austrian end).

 

[signed]

would be missing a trick.
(It would certainly put me off overnight travel in France at my age.)

Absolutely, I do agree, but I don't think that's the sentiment in France

France night train have been, seeing from the government actions, a liability to the the view of the government as they make no money compared to the juicy high speed lines (technically it's fully commercial but the French gov is the majority shareholder in SNCF, so money still comes in). So investment is minimal.

Previous governments wanted to abolish the whole night network (and switch everybody to an overcapacity TGV network) and mostly succeeded back in 2010. But they came back in 2017 as a political plan and very limited, which has quite grown since then. We then don't know what will happen to them with the next, probably National Rally, governement as well.

I once met someone on a night train that worked at SNCF, they told me that they scrapped 400 perfectly useable night train cars a few years ago.

Of course I disagree and the 1M passenger carried last year would disagree as well. Taking 12h in a comfortable, though basic, couchette is nicer than 6 or 7h in a TGV or Corail seat. And it's cheaper too in most cases.

They will take the cheapest and roll with it, what it will be is a mystery.

It will probably be Siemens, as they are the only ones that really do loco-hauled these days.

 

[43096]

It will probably be Siemens, as they are the only ones that really do loco-hauled these days.

Does it have to be loco-hauled, though? Could CAF(?) offer a night version of whatever dross they are building for the Intercités routes?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Astra Vagoane Calatori in Romania might bid, because their carriages are based on the Corail design. Here's their couchette:

VAGON AVA 200 ATC CUȘETĂ : Astra

VAGON AVA 200 ATC CUȘETĂ Tip vagon: Z cuşetă cu aer condiţionat; Carcasă: oţel rezistent la coroziune; Sursă statică 4 tensiuni UIC; Compartimente călători 10 + 1 însoțitor; Viteza maximă: 200 km/h; Sistem informare călători; Sistem video în peron; Sistem de supraveghere video; Sistem WLAN...

avcactive.com

Jon Worth identified some other possible night train manufacturers as part of his Trains for Europe project.

Who could manufacture the night train carriages needed?

Were the Trains for Europe project to be successful, a contract would have to be placed with one or more manufacturers of night train carriages. Here nine possible manufacturers, and their locations and portfolios, are listed. This is to illustrate what would be possible and in no way commends...

trainsforeurope.eu

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Stadler could probably offer a variant of the 8-car EMU day and night stock it is building for Norway (initially Oslo / Bergen). An EMU is probably not flexible enough for SNCF however, with its portion working (Latour de Carol / Cerbère etc.) and lack of electrification to some destinations (Rodez / Aurillac etc.).

 

[JamesT]

I thought SNCF’s usual method of procurement was to phone up Alstom and order their current model?

 

[nwales58]

I thought SNCF’s usual method of procurement was to phone up Alstom and order their current model?

SNCF, surprisingly, have bought from CAF recently, Oxygène as mentioned above. It’s late. Which will be a good reason to placate the workers and buy Alstom next time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2025 ==

As this is an un-sexy corner of the SNCF empire, in my view, only existing because some politicians demand it, the solution will be as cheap and nasty as possible and will probably prove ‘told you so, there’s no demand’.

Worse, buying the fleet and subsidising its operation has to be financed by the government. The new government has worse financial problems than the previous one, who launched that tender. By the time bids are in there will probably be another government who will face even worse budget problems and may well decide nah, it’s unaffordable.

 

[signed]

I thought SNCF’s usual method of procurement was to phone up Alstom and order their current model?

SNCF, surprisingly, have bought from CAF recently, Oxygène as mentioned above. It’s late. Which will be a good reason to placate the workers and buy Alstom next time.

It's not SNCF doing that tender, it's the French Gov. SNCF would never buy from CAF or Talgo in my opinion (due to the whole Renfe feud). And if it's the same crap as Mark 5a then please nothing like that.

and will probably prove ‘told you so, there’s no demand’.

But the thing is that it's not true, even in basic accommodations it's healthily filled in the summer (for the Toulouse, Nice and other sunny destinations) and winter (for the Briancon Alps route)

Stadler could probably offer a variant of the 8-car EMU day and night stock it is building for Norway (initially Oslo / Bergen)

Probably way too expensive. Stadler is a low-volume specialized, so the cost is probably through the roof. Plus an EMU, as you said would never work.

Does it have to be loco-hauled, though?

Yes, the whole system is, to save money, portion-working and has to run on unelectrified routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2025 ==

Astra Vagoane Calatori in Romania might bid, because their carriages are based on the Corail design

It doesn't look that bad and is probably very cheap.

 

[StephenHunter]

You could make sleeper trains "sexy". Just get some influencers in their nighties. That's what they used to do anyway.

 

[nwales58]

You could make sleeper trains "sexy". Just get some influencers in their nighties.

Excellent idea, fill the trains with Tiktoc challengers (or whatever the latest stupidity is) of all the things we did in a couchette on the way to Gap or Toulon. Though they will probably get on, push everyone out of the way to make the videos, leave before the train goes and not pay anything, from what they get up to elsewhere.

It's not SNCF doing that tender, it's the French Gov. SNCF would never buy from CAF or Talgo in my opinion (due to the whole Renfe feud). And if it's the same crap as Mark 5a then please nothing like that.

Oops. Thanks.

CAF built an assembly plant in France. From the Newport experience build quality won't be great. Suspect it's better to have your stuff built at the mothership and definitely not in the satellite because production skills don't seem to transfer well.

Talgo surely cannot win new orders even built at home from their current messes.

A cost cutting government, who can't touch major spending, surely will end the night trains though.

 

[signed]

Talgo surely cannot win new orders even built at home from their current messes.

Le Train (A prospective OA in the country's west) has S-107 (Avril) on order (officially because SNCF refused to sell TGV Atlantique sets to them). The messes about those trains were known back then

CAF built an assembly plant in France

They haven't built one, they got both the Rischoffen plant along the Régiolis/Coradia platform from Alstom as part of the Bombardier merger. It's unlikely they're building anything else than those trains there.

 

[nwales58]

You are correct, the Oxygène units are now being built at Reichshoffen, according to their latest press release.

I recalled a CAF announcement about Bagnères-de-Bigorre and had the impression it was a new plant for this order. Reality is that in 2010 they bought an existing company, Soulé, and assembled Urbos trams and smaller vehicles there for french orders. 2019 announcements about the SNCF Intercités order state construction at Bagnères-de-B and Beasain.

CAF bought Reichshoffen in 2022 so Bagnères-de-Bigorre is now back to small stuff. Maybe some sleeper coaches would help.

 

[DanNCL]

I can’t see it being Siemens for political reasons, remember the fuss the French made when Eurostar ordered the 374s from Siemens instead of a TGV or AGV variant from Alstom? And it’s taken forever for the French to certify the Vectron, a loco ubiquitous almost everywhere else in Europe and has even made a trip under its own power through the tunnel to Dollands Moor once.

As far as I know the only sleepers CAF have built were the Mark 5s. Could CAF offer a derivative of the Mark 5s adapted for use in France? Or would a prospective bid from CAF be a clean sheet design?

Not sure what Alstom would come up with but it’s difficult to see them not bidding for a French order.

 

[duesselmartin]

Siemens has a finished product (not a perfect product though). I cannot see Alstom developing one in reasonable time. The CAF Mk5 adaption will not be that easy either.
Talgo is a theoretical option. They are however overwhelmed by contracts.

 

[signed]

And it’s taken forever for the French to certify the Vectron, a loco ubiquitous almost everywhere else in Europe and has even made a trip under its own power through the tunnel to Dollands Moor once.

I would mostly think that they would be only supplying coaching stock.

We don't need any more locos with the end of the loco-hauled miring and the freight being this unimportant.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The approval of the Vectron will take some years but there is a good reason for this.

All existing Siemens products used in France have safety systems completely supplied by Alstom.

The Vectron will be the first to use entirely Siemens components(except for an Alston KVB STM). This involves things like proving hundreds of thousands of miles of fault free running of a Siemens balise antenna reading KVB balises.

However, I agree a Siemens order from SNCF is unlikely for optical political reasons.

 

[Snow1964]

SNCF, surprisingly, have bought from CAF recently, Oxygène as mentioned above. It’s late. Which will be a good reason to placate the workers and buy Alstom next time.

CAF have factories in Reichshoffen, Alsace, which is where 28 Oxygene are being built (and they have just ordered 22 more trains for Bordeaux-Marseilles line, there must be lot of premium traffic as they will be 103 seats in First class and 317 standard). So still buying from CAF

I realise though we tend to think of CAF as not building in France.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

As far as I know the only sleepers CAF have built were the Mark 5s. Could CAF offer a derivative of the Mark 5s adapted for use in France? Or would a prospective bid from CAF be a clean sheet design?

CAF built locomotive-hauled carriages for continental European countries in the 1980s and 1990s, so they wouldn't be starting from scratch.

 

[Trainbike46]

Siemens would appear to have a good chance, except for the political aspect.

Stadler does build coaching stock as well, so absolutely could deliver something for this order, but just like Siemens they will face the political challenge of not being built in France.

How long has it been since almost build a sleeper train, or coaching stock at all?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Stadler have built variable gauge sleeping cars for Azerbaijan designed for through-running to Tukey (PDF brochure). However, Stadler were probably only interested in the project because of the technical challenges, since as well as variable gauge bogies the cars have adjustable steps for five different platform heights (200, 300, 550, 780 and 1100 mm).

 

[signed]

or coaching stock at all?

I would venture and say since Corail in the Alstom name (so early 90s for the last units). De Dietrich Ferroviaire (later bought by Alstom) built the Enterprise DD stock in the 80s/90s

 

[Austriantrain]

Stadler does build coaching stock as well, so absolutely could deliver something for this order, but just like Siemens they will face the political challenge of not being built in France.

SNCF has ordered Stadler stock for its narrow-gauge lines. Politically, it really will depend if Alstom or CAF are interested. If not - and they might well not be for such a small order - , it might open the way for another manufacturer (all of it obviously completely illegal under EU procurement law, but there we are...).

 

[signed]

Stadler does build coaching stock as well, so absolutely could deliver something for this order, but just like Siemens they will face the political challenge of not being built in France.

Stadler is much more interested by bespoke requirement stock and low volume orders. Which although relatively low volume bespoke it isn't in the slightest

 

[popeter45]

Siemens for sure have the design that would work but yea political issue
maybe somthing like Alstrom/Bombardier building on licence from Siemens?
such a order could even be done joint between SNCF/OBB so allow a follow on NJ order for the Pairs/Brussels service to get upgraded

 

[43096]

maybe somthing like Alstrom/Bombardier building on licence from Siemens?

There is no Bombardier. And it's Alstom.

No idea why people feel the need to put an 'r' into it - someone I worked with used to do it as well - or indeed keep the 'h' that was removed 25 years ago!

 

[signed]

such a order could even be done joint between SNCF/OBB so allow a follow on NJ order for the Pairs/Brussels service to get upgraded

It's a French Gov tender, as the lines and the stock are managed by the gov and contracted to SNCF, so nothing commercial could be done.

 

[StephenHunter]

There's a "couchette avec moi" joke here somewhere.