if you personally held the Crosscountry Franchise, what would you do?

[sprinterguy]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this on this thread. HS2 (with the plan to run Birmingham - East Midlands - South Yorkshire - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh could have a big impact on XC.

I'd imagine that with a direct HS2 service on this corridor (albeit not serving smaller places like York, Chesterfield, Tamworth...) then the XC service would be scaled back (maybe like SE services were to "encourage" people onto HS1?).

I certainly think that with the opening of HS2 then Crosscountry will truly become a regional operation, with talk of more frequent stops and not limited stop services being the order of the day.

An upshot of HS2 that few people seem to realise (especially those with their "it's just a London to Birmingham shuttle" blinkers on) is that as well as releiving long distance capacity on the WCML, MML and ECML, it is set to have a big effect on Birmingham to the North East and Scotland Crosscountry traffic.

I put together a list of how I'd view the Crosscountry network after HS2 opens. I'll have to see if I can find it.

EDIT: I can’t find it. But off the top of my head it was something like this:

CROSSCOUNTRY POST-HS2:
1. Glasgow to Nottingham via ECML
2. Newcastle to Bristol & Cardiff
3. Manchester to Penzance
4. (Glasgow via WCML) to Birmingham to Bournemouth
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Also: As far as I know, there are no plans for access to HS2 in the Birmingham area that would allow Crosscountry services coming up from the south west to use classic-compatible HS2 trains to radically accelerate South West to North East XC services. Admittedly for this to work it would require a lot of electrification of the Crosscountry network south of Birmingham, but I think they’ve missed a trick there.

 

[tbtc]

An upshot of HS2 that few people seem to realise (especially those with their "it's just a London to Birmingham shuttle" blinkers on) is that as well as releiving long distance capacity on the WCML, MML and ECML, it is set to have a big effect on Birmingham to the North East and Scotland Crosscountry traffic

Yes. And this is why HS2 needs to serve central Birmingham, to provide faster links to the rest of the UK from our second city (as well as just London).

Another point about HS2 not mentioned yet (as far as I can see) is that it's potentially a very "north-heavy" set of routes.

You could have

2x Newcastle/ Sheffield - Birmingham
2x Manchester - Birmingham
1x Glasgow - WCML - Birmingham
2x Liverpool - Birmingham

...yet realistically the current four services south of Birmingham are probably about right (in terms of frequency, if not number of seats).

Whilst people complain about Liverpool - Birmingham and Glasgow - Birmingham no longer going further south than New Street, I don't think everywhere north of Birmingham will get a direct service to Bristol/ Reading.

The only way round this I guess is to extend the Paddington - Reading - Oxford services to Birmingham? Dunno, what else can be done to "balance up" the north/south split?

 

[LE Greys]

Well, in an ideal world, start chivvying EC to replace all their HSTs with Irish-style MkIV coaches (probably MkV) hauled by locos, allowing them to release all their HSTs for XC use. I could then cascade the Voyagers onto XC local, and release the Turbostars for some other franchise.

If that's impossible, put in a unilateral order for more Voyager vehicles and make a public statement that I had done it. There is no way the DfT could cancel it without a public relations disaster. Blackmailing the DfT might not work, but it's worth a try. Obviously, at least one per unit would be a pantograph trailer with transformer equipment underneath and a buffet car inside, while another vehicle would have a proper guard's compartment of at least equal size to a MkIII TGS. Seating would be based on Meridian arrangements. The names would go back on as well (with 220001 being Maiden Voyager and 026 being Somerset Voyager), and fix the wrong in which Neal Armstrong was left out. I'd also consider fitting tilt to both 220s and 221s if the MML and ECML are ever tilt-upgraded. I'd also try to persuade Virgin to do a unit swap, 21 extended 221s for 21 brand-new 222s, thus increasing the fleet by 21 units (they would become Class 600, 601 and 602 when they become EDMUs).

Having done this, I'd start looking at some of the Operation Princess routes, especially Brighton, Blackpool and Liverpool. Poole would be a consideration if there is any spare stock, and the Birmingham-Swindon route would be a consideration for the Turbostar services. Portsmouth is probably impossible.

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes. And this is why HS2 needs to serve central Birmingham, to provide faster links to the rest of the UK from our second city (as well as just London).

Another point about HS2 not mentioned yet (as far as I can see) is that it's potentially a very "north-heavy" set of routes.

You could have

2x Newcastle/ Sheffield - Birmingham
2x Manchester - Birmingham
1x Glasgow - WCML - Birmingham
2x Liverpool - Birmingham

...yet realistically the current four services south of Birmingham are probably about right (in terms of frequency, if not number of seats).

The current thinking for frequencies of HS2 to Birmingham city centre is 2 tph from each of Manchester and Leeds, and one further train per hour from Newcastle and potentially further north. Of course, there’s still at least another fifteen years to decide on a timetable for the route…
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The names would go back on as well (with 220001 being Maiden Voyager and 026 being Somerset Voyager), and fix the wrong in which Neal Armstrong was left out.

I’m in full agreement with this. Trains have much more character when they have names instead of just numbers. I really liked the location specific names on the 220s.

I'd also try to persuade Virgin to do a unit swap, 21 extended 221s for 21 brand-new 222s, thus increasing the fleet by 21 units (they would become Class 600, 601 and 602 when they become EDMUs).

It’s extra 390s that Virgin really need: All it would take would be electrification from Crewe to Chester, twenty new Pendolinos for Virgin and then, as long as they can cope with the odd drag along the North Wales Coast to Holyhead, West Coast can have a fully electric fleet.

 

[LE Greys]

And how would you work around the small matter of a lack of capacity on the MML between Bedford and Luton and also the lack of infrastructure to turn trains from the North at Luton? And don't even think about doing it a Luton Airport Parkway - there's no space at all down there.

Also interested to know who a Luton - Reading service, where presumably the only significant stop en route would be Oxford, would appeal to?

Given you can get from Luton into St Pancras in 20 mins, across to Paddington in 20 mins and Paddington - Reading in 30 mins - so let's say a 90 min journey - I doubt you'd make a journey time more appealing.

And if you included MKC en-route - so you'd need a reversal on the WCML - then there's no way this "new" option would take less than 90 mins......

I like the idea of this on principle, although practice might be a bit different. From Luton, you can continue to Welwyn without too much difficulty, or reverse and follow a new route to Langley Junction, accross the ECML at Hitchin and on to Cambridge and Norwich, or maybe Cambridge, Stansted, Braintree and Colchester. Another option would be to bypass Luton and go direct from Bedford to Hitchin. The lack of a westward route from the ECML is seriously annoying, especially when heading to somewhere in the Midlands. Going into London adds to the cost and leads to the risk of missing connections. I also reckon that a Hitchin-Oxford journey (30 mins + 20 mins + 45 mins + 10 mins for connections = 1 hr 45) would be quicker without the delay of going into London.

 

[RichmondCommu]

To be honest, I'd just add a carriage to the Turbostars, and add 3 carriages (all standard) to the Voyagers, one including a shop.

VOYAGERS: I would serve First Class Passengers a meal, if their journey was longer than 60 minutes. An all-day Breakfast would be provided on all services departing before 10.30AM, and a lunch menu of Sandwiches and Snacks from 10.30AM until 3.30PM. Any departing between 3.30PM and 8.00PM would be served a good meal, with a large selection of hearty meals - with proper cutlery. After 8.00PM, a similar menu to the lunch will be provided, but on a smaller scale.

The shop would serve a good variety of snacks and sandwiches on all journeys, with paninis and breakfast buns also available to be bought.

That's pretty much it for now - but no doubt i'll add to it.

I don’t understand why so many people are insistent that trains should have a shop? Given that they are so damn expensive surely anybody with any sense of financial acumen stocks up before they travel, especially if they are travelling as a family? I make dozens of long distance journeys each year but never buy from the train.

 

[LE Greys]

It’s extra 390s that Virgin really need: All it would take would be electrification from Crewe to Chester, twenty new Pendolinos for Virgin and then, as long as they can cope with the odd drag along the North Wales Coast to Holyhead, West Coast can have a fully electric fleet.

Yes, that makes much more sense. It still gives XC 21 extra units to work with, partly to restore the Brighton service, which could go via Kensington or Guildford, but most likely the latter. The rest could reduce Turbostar numbers a bit, although I'd still like to reinstate the Swindon-Stroud-Birmingham service, perhaps running it through to somewhere else.

 

[DarloRich]

TBH i would rather dump the Voaygers than the Turbowhatsits. I tihnk they are ideal for some of the "Branch" journeys XC offer other than along the long distance trunk

 

[LE Greys]

I don’t understand why so many people are insistent that trains should have a shop? Given that they are so damn expensive surely anybody with any sense of financial acumen stocks up before they travel, especially if they are travelling as a family? I make dozens of long distance journeys each year but never buy from the train.

In my case, it's partly because it makes it feel like a proper Intercity train - it would be a miniature buffet rather than a shop in my case. However, it's more that many leisure travellers spend a very long time on XC services, so they might need to re-stock occasionally. They don't make five-minute stops at York any more (just enough time to get to the station buffet and buy some take-away tea).

 

[sprinterguy]

I don’t understand why so many people are insistent that trains should have a shop? Given that they are so damn expensive surely anybody with any sense of financial acumen stocks up before they travel, especially if they are travelling as a family? I make dozens of long distance journeys each year but never buy from the train.

There is not always the time available to stock up on supplies of food and drink before boarding the train, and some people (I do sometimes) like having the option of buying something on the train as and when the mood takes them, rather than planning everything out in advance. The journey times on Crosscountry can be very long depending on where you are travelling to, so it’s sometimes nice to be able to re-stock en route.

 

[DarloRich]

Or you might just fancy a cup of tea and not like carting a flask about all day

 

[sprinterguy]

They don't make five-minute stops at York any more (just enough time to get to the station buffet and buy some take-away tea).

Some of them seem to (I think it’s the Leeds routed ones but I can’t quite remember) if they are running to time, purely because of the timetable padding that is added in to the schedule. Some Crosscountry services seem to sit at York for about ten minutes while an East Coast service gets priority for the journey north: Plenty of time for a quick dash to the shop if it were needed.

 

[LE Greys]

TBH i would rather dump the Voaygers than the Turbowhatsits. I tihnk they are ideal for some of the "Branch" journeys XC offer other than along the long distance trunk

Well, yes, but they're not long enough and don't have any on-board catering. I'd keep them for Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Swindon. Birmingham-Stansted, however, would switch to Voyagers and ideally extend to Liverpool, although I would consider combining it with the Swindon service. Another option might be to have a few through trains on all the routes (Nottingham-Plymouth, Stansted-Cardiff, Nottingham-Swindon), operated by Voyagers, with the rest operated by Turbostars. The same for extensions (Swindon-Reading-Brighton/Paddington, Cardiff-Swansea and so on).

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I don’t understand why so many people are insistent that trains should have a shop? Given that they are so damn expensive surely anybody with any sense of financial acumen stocks up before they travel, especially if they are travelling as a family? I make dozens of long distance journeys each year but never buy from the train.

Thing is, some of the XC trains go hundreds of miles, and some of the passengers (although not LOTS) also go that distance, the shop would be fairly priced in order to maximise profits and use. People often don't carry so much stuff when travelling - there's not a lot of places you can put it! Especially for large families.


Also, during the night there would be Premium Services running, where the whole train would be classed as 'CountryPremium' where an at-seat service supplying drinks and hosts would run. There would only be one in each direction (Edinburgh - Penzance) departing each end around 11PM. These would be limited-stop, calling at for example; Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Leeds, Birmingham New Street, Bristol Temple Meads, Plymouth & Penzance. At-seat Breakfasts would be served early in the morning in order to provide a good service, served from the buffet car by on-board chefs. These late-night services would be operated by 4-car voyagers, with additional amenities added such as dimmed lighting and curtains in all carriages. Each seat would have branded pillows provided, and a glass of wine or similar will be given to customers upon boarding the train. Hosts will be provided at each set of doors in order to welcome passengers, and to hand out information and the glass of wine.

 

[DarloRich]

Well, yes, but they're not long enough and don't have any on-board catering. I'd keep them for Cardiff-Nottingham and Birmingham-Swindon. Birmingham-Stansted, however, would switch to Voyagers and ideally extend to Liverpool, although I would consider combining it with the Swindon service. Another option might be to have a few through trains on all the routes (Nottingham-Plymouth, Stansted-Cardiff, Nottingham-Swindon), operated by Voyagers, with the rest operated by Turbostars. The same for extensions (Swindon-Reading-Brighton/Paddington, Cardiff-Swansea and so on).

As i am in charge i have decided that the Voyagers have no future with my compnay. I will park them in a siding to rot if need be! Look, my foot is about to stamp on this one!

Also i forgot to mention i have just ordered enougth trailers to make all the turboblokies 4 or 5 car

Lets get hold of hertiage locos and stock on hire till we can get some decent stuff procured to replace the voyagers

 

[YorkshireBear]

I dont think in any real world 10 year old 125 DMU's will not get scrapped they will be used. And XC will be there home forever cos no one else will take them....

 

[DarloRich]

I dont think in any real world 10 year old 125 DMU's will not get scrapped they will be used. And XC will be there home forever cos no one else will take them....

its my company and i want shot of the bloody things. I dont care if they get scrapped or not but they are NOT running on my services.

Make me an offer.

 

[sprinterguy]

As i am in charge i have decided that the Voyagers have no future with my compnay. I will park them in a siding to rot if need be! Look, my foot is about to stamp on this one!

Also i forgot to mention i have just ordered enougth trailers to make all the turboblokies 4 or 5 car

Lets get hold of hertiage locos and stock on hire till we can get some decent stuff procured to replace the voyagers

If I wasn’t keeping my sensible head on and had a completely free hand with the Crosscountry franchise, I can tell you now I’d be buying a fleet of Railjet trains adapted for the British loading gauge for the Intercity part of my XC network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet

7 carriage rakes formed: DTF – TRFB – TS – TS – TS – TS – TGS, with a Bombardier Traxx diesel, or perhaps some of Virgins’ 57s hired in at the opposite end to the driving trailer. It’d be hellfire.

Barring the inability to get any “heads out” they’re some of the most awesome trains in the world IMO. Perhaps something to consider when demand for my regional services outstrips the capacity of the five carriage 220s and the seven carriage 221s can be cascaded onto the Regional services. The 220s could go to Transpennine or something.

 

[Zoe]

The Railjet coaches were only ordered as there was a surplus of locomotives. Had there not been then it's most likely that an MU would have been ordered. There just isn't any justification for loco hauled stock these days. Voyagers may not be the best design but I don't think the fact that they are an MU has much to do with it.

 

[DarloRich]

If I wasn’t keeping my sensible head on and had a completely free hand with the Crosscountry franchise, I can tell you now I’d be buying a fleet of Railjet trains adapted for the British loading gauge for the Intercity part of my XC network: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railjet

7 carriage rakes formed: DTF – TRFB – TS – TS – TS – TS – TGS, with a Bombardier Traxx diesel, or perhaps some of Virgins’ 57s hired in at the opposite end to the driving trailer. It’d be hellfire.

Barring the inability to get any “heads out” they’re some of the most awesome trains in the world IMO. Perhaps something to consider when demand for my regional services outstrips the capacity of the five carriage 220s and the seven carriage 221s can be cascaded onto the Regional services. The 220s could go to Transpennine or something.

They will do but can we change the design or something so you have drop lights and handles on the outside!

How soon can you get me say 50 sets here?

BTW Northern will have the Voyagers!

 

[sprinterguy]

The Railjet coaches were only ordered as there was a surplus of locomotives. Had there not been then it's most likely that an MU would have been ordered. There just isn't any justification for loco hauled stock these days. Voyagers may not be the best design but I don't think the fact that they are an MU has much to do with it.

I know what the justification for ordering the Railjet rakes was and that multiple units would have been ordered otherwise, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t turned out to be an exceptionally good design. I’d prefer the peace and quiet of loco hauled coaching stock over DMUs on long distance, limited stop Intercity services and the Railjet is the latest development of that traditional view on rolling stock.

I don't think the Railjet operation is any the worse operationally for employing locos and carriages over multiple units.

The Voyagers wouldn’t have been any better if they had been built as loco hauled coaching stock to the same design and specification, it's true, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not possible to build good quality coaching stock.

 

[DarloRich]

The Railjet coaches were only ordered as there was a surplus of locomotives. Had there not been then it's most likely that an MU would have been ordered. There just isn't any justification for loco hauled stock these days. Voyagers may not be the best design but I don't think the fact that they are an MU has much to do with it.

My company - i dont want MU for long distance services. I want proper trains and seeing as it is fantasy land money is no object!

 

[LE Greys]

They will do but can we change the design or something so you have drop lights and handles on the outside!

How soon can you get me say 50 sets here?

BTW Northern will have the Voyagers!

Keeping in fantasy land, 50 gives me an idea...

We have eighteen Class 50s (I think). Not sure how many are operational, but they have a decent turn of speed, a reasonable route availability and would probably work well if they were looked after. So we have possibly six operational 50s, plus perhaps two operational Deltics, a few hired 47s and 67s and maybe Western. How's that for covering the summer relief services?

For coaching stock, we have the Irish MkIIIs, which conveniently have generator cars so they can work with Deltics and Westerns without difficulty. The tricky bit is finding enough replacement bogies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know what the justification for ordering the Railjet rakes was and that multiple units would have been ordered otherwise, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t turned out to be an exceptionally good design. I’d prefer the peace and quiet of loco hauled coaching stock over DMUs on long distance, limited stop Intercity services and the Railjet is the latest development of that traditional view on rolling stock.

I don't think the Railjet operation is any the worse operationally for employing locos and carriages over multiple units.

The Voyagers wouldn’t have been any better if they had been built as loco hauled coaching stock to the same design and specification, it's true, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not possible to build good quality coaching stock.

Back to reality, I would be looking at CAF coaches, based on the ones they built for CIE. They would fit C3 loading gauge with no trouble, and just need a standard-gauge bogie to work in Britain.

 

[sprinterguy]

Back to reality, I would be looking at CAF coaches, based on the ones they built for CIE. They would fit C3 loading gauge with no trouble, and just need a standard-gauge bogie to work in Britain.

Good point: A fleet of the CAF built Irish mark 4s would do very nicely as a new coaching stock design, with no need to "scale them down" to fit our loading gauge. Nice one.

 

[WestCoast]

There just isn't any justification for loco hauled stock these days.

Absolutely not true as I've argued before in previous threads. You're very close minded about this. Push-pull allows for flexible rakes, which can offer operational benefits and means less staff than coupled Multiple Units, which can't have gangways at intercity (100mph+) speed.

 

[185]

I'd be ringing CAF or Chinese Sourced Rolling Stock for a quote for building dummy 221/222 trailer carriages for the voyagers. They could probably easily cope with an extra 25%-30% of weight. Stuff Bombarwotsit and the leasing companies.

 

[Zoe]

Absolutely not true as I've argued before in previous threads.

If there really was still a case for loco hauled stock then why have there been no new builds for the GB network for 20 years? If the ECML has been electrified later then I expect EMUs would have been used. Even in mainland Europe the Railjet coaches were as I said above only ordered due to a surplus of locomotives.

 

[WestCoast]

If there really was still a case for loco hauled stock then why have there been no new builds for the GB network for 20 years?

Terrible argument, just because something hasn't been done, doesn't mean that it loco-hauled doesn't have beneifts.

 

[Zoe]

Terrible argument, just because something hasn't been done, doesn't mean that it loco-hauled doesn't have beneifts.

There may well be some benefits but the question is if they outweigh the benefits of a multiple unit. Based on the evidence of the last 20 years it would seem to answer to that is no.

 

[WestCoast]

There may well be some benefits but the question is if they outweigh the benefits of a multiple unit. Based on the evidence of the last 20 years it would seem to answer to that is no.

In some cases they do. You've looked at one example in mainland Europe, I'm afraid you are going to have to broaden the perspective a little bit. I very much doubt that MUs would work well with sleeper services with varying demand for different types of stock, plus it's a NO to underfloor diesel engines!

DB in Germany (and some of the newer private regional operators) have continually operated push-pull locos with double decker stock on the extensive Regional-Express network (semi-fast medium-long distance). They aren't planning to switch to EMU either, they deliberately have push-pull.

Infact, InterCity is going over, partially, to push-pull double deckers replacing the current locos and stock.

They see the benefits of being able to switch easily between electric and diesel traction, offer varying set lengths to meet demand and take into account the comfort implications.