Well, whatever the exact specifics - it was one service (formed of 2x379s) that was going to run each day, and now isn't for the time being. Apparently there are issues at some 8 car platforms, even though they're essentially identical to the 387s, which limits where they can stop for the time being.
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Great Northern Fleet - 379s introduction
- Thread starter Mollman
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TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
I’m assuming the PIS will stop 379 and 387 from multi working.
mansonlo49
Member
What’s the PIS? Thanks
They have the same PIS on both. All classes of Electrostar trains use the same BTROS (Whiteleys) system so i would not think that would be the issue. But i think there may be other issues with different software preventing them from coupling in passenger service. I know the 375s and 377s can only couple on ECS workins and the 377s and 387s can only couple on ECS working so i would imagine the 387s and 379s will be the same and can only couple on ECS workings.
The 387 and 379 have completely different software. They will never run in multiple together, at least in passenger service.
To what extent could software, rather than hardware, be upgraded? Is the actual issue that the processors are different such that a software upgrade can't happen?
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
The font’s nicer on 379s
It is theoretically possible, but at a large cost with no advantages gained from doing it.
Passenger Information System.
mansonlo49
Member
thank you
I highly doubt that is the reason why. Lots of dual voltage units regularly work coupled to ac only units or dc only units.
710/1 (dual voltage) regularly work coupled to 710/2 (ac only)
350/1 (dual voltage) regularly work coupled to 350/2 350/3 350/4 (ac only)
377/2 377/5 377/7 (dual voltage) regularly work coupled to 377/1 377/2 377/3 377/4 377/6 (dc only)
375/6 (dual voltage) regularly work coupled to 375/3 375/7 375/8 375/9 (dc only)
Surely whether or not it is dual voltage does not matter as the entire route is ac only. I think the actual reason they can not couple in passenger service is due to software differences.
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That isn't a reason why they can't work together.
bramling
Veteran Member
There would be some flexibility advantage, especially with the way the GN service now inter-works between service groups.
If a situation arises where the depot only has one of each type able to make up a train then in the absence of coupling then it would be a shortform. Likewise during disruption it reduces flexibility, reducing the number of options available to control.
Okay GN has managed with incompatible train types before without the sky falling in, but it’s still a retrograde step going from three to four train types again (I say four as the 700/0 and 700/1 can’t fully interchange with each other due to platform lengths).
Ref: Post 1200 by RogerB: The term "unit" has always been applied to electric trains that are permanantly coupled (ie: could not be uncoupled in service due to bar couplings or fixed buckeye couplers), viz: the term EMU (Electric Multiple Unit). However, DMUs were not permanantly coupled (they had three-link couplers and could be taken apart if required) - in my experiance these were always known as "sets", despite the term DMU (Diesel Multiple unit) !! Loco hauled "sets" were usually known as "rakes" and were completely flexible - could be reduced or increased in length as required.
Confusing, int'it ?
Confusing, int'it ?
Considering that most of the 387s will be going in the near future, there's going to be a very low likelihood that multiple working will ever be needed. Even if it was higher, the cost and time required would make it not worth it.
bramling
Veteran Member
The thing is, they’re not going - from what I gather GN is retaining 15 units. That’s enough to cause some headaches at times, especially with some GN diagrams attaching and detaching.
As I say, it isn’t the end of the world and things coped during 317/321/365 days, but the GN as a whole was a lot more reliable then. Now it’s an extra headache which could probably be done without, it’s just one more thing to add problems.
On a different note, will an effort be made to have the 379s all facing the same way? I seem to remember some of the 387s had to be specially turned in their early GN days in order to have everything oriented the same. However this was won’t be so easy on the 379s due to them being AC-only.
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MCR247
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I thought it was just me that noticed things like thatThe font’s nicer on 379s
Yes, they should be the same way as the 387s for accessibility reasons.
It should be much easier now because there is much less splitting and joining, The downside is the absence of a diagram for a single unit. In the days of classes 317/321/365 there was always an all day 4 car diagram (in the morning it was usually 0653 or 0705 Kings Cross-Cambridge) which could be any of classes 317/321/365.
I think there are maintenance reasons at Hornsey for having all of the units the same way round too, so that the pantograph is always in the same place.
When the class 365s came over from South Eastern there was at least one turning move that was diesel hauled. With the class 379s they might be able to fix a turning move on the Stansted Airport triangle.
Sutton in Ant
Member
Why would GN would want to keep 15 387s when they would be completely useless with the 379s as they cannot work together. It will not work at all.
MCR247
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They won’t be useless at all. They won’t be able to work in multiple in service so they will of course have to be diagrammed separately, but that’s no different to any other TOC that has fleets that can’t work together. It just seems more odd in this case since the trains are otherwise so similar.
38 x 387s were at GN, 25 coming to Southern i believe.
Simply because the class 379 fleet on its own is not big enough to cover the full service.
The GN has operated with a mixed fleet for more than 25 years, since the class 365s arrived. It worked very well then and will work with class 379s and class 387s.
The GN keeping 15 class 387s is an underestimate. A total of 45 units would not be enough to deliver the 2025 timetable.
I have heard figures of the class 379s coming in leading to a net gain of about 12-13 units for GN, which implies about 17-18 going to Southern.
Sounds right. There’s a Driver briefing posted that 387102-113 will soon have ETCS equipment fitted but out of use ufn. Coincidentally, 38 less 25 equals 13 so I think you’re spot on
Believe the numbers were mentioned on here a while back. That i guess also confirms the the exC2C 387s will go to Southern too. Southern losing 13x 377s to SE of which 2 have already gone.
Mikey C
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It must be a lot easier operating 2 related classes of trains (379s and 387s) than for Southeastern, where their Metro services are now operated by 3 completely unrelated types of trains!
Back in those days, there were a few diagrams for single units. So they could misform one of them to free up a unit to pair up. 38 from 40 class 365s was heroic but there was nearly always a class 317 or 321 spare. If they got really desperate, they used a pair of class 313s to Letchworth or Royston. That doesn't seem to happen with the 717s.
bramling
Veteran Member
I just see it as something else to add problems. Last night for example there was some stepping up going on at King’s Cross, which worked as everything involved was 387s. This time next year as well as 387 and 700/0 there will now be a third type of train involved as well. The service is ropey enough as it is nowadays - yesterday was very rough round the edges pretty much all day for little obvious reason - so anything that makes things more complicated is a negative step.
I’m not saying it’s a massive problem, just that it’s introducing a new issue that hasn’t existed since 2018, to add to a very long list of performance issues that the GN now has.
In short, they struggle to make the timetable work now, so having an inflexibility added is going to be unhelpful, especially if the fleet size is still going to be cut to the bone to allow uplifts elsewhere, as seems to be the case.
Worth remembering the GN still won’t have as many units (43) as they did in 2018 with the 365s (50).